Norden Bomb Sight

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AJMD429
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Norden Bomb Sight

Post by AJMD429 »

Even though 90% of TED talks are too 'progresssssive' in attitude for me to like, this one was interesting in the history of the sight.

https://youtu.be/HpiZTvlWx2g

Of course he had to editorialize like a true TED-talker... :roll:

But - the topic did stimulate me to find out more on the implement itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsr46v8vV8o

Then this vintage footage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=143vi97a4tY

I think the same guy narrates ALL these WW-II era films - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAYRv8T5jEg - anyone know who it was...?
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Blaine
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Blaine »

A-Bombs on parachutes seems to have solved the problem.
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marlinman93
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by marlinman93 »

There was a wonderful story about a lady in Colorado who answered the government call for women with long straight hair to sell their hair to the government back when the Norden bomb sight was being built. I believe she was in Colorado, and she responded to the request by sending in a sample of her hair. She was accepted, but she refused payment, as she felt it was her patriotic duty to help her country. She didn't know what her hair was being used for, and didn't find out until many years later. She eventually found out, and during Reagan's time as President he sent her a Presidential Thank You on her 80th birthday, and acknowledged her generous gift to help win the War.
Her name was Mary Babnik (Brown) and her story is far more interesting than the Norden sight itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Babnik_Brown
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Sixgun »

What amazes me more than this bomb sight is how Doc, who,is already dealing with a demanding job, has the time and energy
to research the bomb sight and then post links to any questions anyone may have concerning this sight.

That why some people become doctors but most settle for mundane jobs like forklift drivers.---6
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AJMD429
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by AJMD429 »

It's just my ADD - when I have to go to the office on weekends to chart stuff (a primary care doc spends two minutes at the computer for every minute with a patient if he/she uses electronic/cloud/internet medical records like most do, and even with paper charts spends about one minute with the chart or reviewing tests or whatever for every minute with patients), I get stir-crazy being cooped up inside on a 'non-work-day' so I listen to music, Trump speeches, or history/nature stuff while I work. :mrgreen:
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Sixgun »

You have that pelosi too huh Doc? ADD.......in case you don't know, it never ends.....I have it and my uncle was telling me last week on the phone he has it.....and he is 89....still drives from New Jersey to Florida and back....a half dozen times a year. He says two days in the house is his limit and then down to his other house.----6
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Old No7
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Old No7 »

marlinman93 wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:06 pm There was a wonderful story about a lady in Colorado who answered the government call for women with long straight hair to sell their hair to the government back when the Norden bomb sight was being built. I believe she was in Colorado, and she responded to the request by sending in a sample of her hair. She was accepted, but she refused payment, as she felt it was her patriotic duty to help her country. She didn't know what her hair was being used for, and didn't find out until many years later. She eventually found out, and during Reagan's time as President he sent her a Presidential Thank You on her 80th birthday, and acknowledged her generous gift to help win the War.
Her name was Mary Babnik (Brown) and her story is far more interesting than the Norden sight itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Babnik_Brown
Here's a neat image of the crosshairs of a Norden Sight -- maybe it was made using Mary's locks...

Old No7

Norden Bombsight Crosshairs.jpg
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Bullard4075
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Bullard4075 »

Interesting.
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wolfdog
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by wolfdog »

Only the lead plane in a group used the bomb sight, all the others flew in formation and drop when it did.
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Old No7
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Old No7 »

Since I was curious about this, I did a little more digging and found out the Norden Bomb Sight wasn't quite as good as reported.

Old No7

"To this day, a legend surrounds the accuracy of the Norden bombsight and the device’s role in the Allied victory in World War II. Mostly the result of intense self-promotion by Norden’s company, the legend is just that. The bombsight’s accuracy never met planners’ expectations. Nonetheless, practically every article about the bombsight in the popular media of the day referred to the claim that with the Norden bombsight bombardiers could hit a pickle barrel from 20,000 feet. To help foster the notion of accuracy, Norden used a clever Latin motto, “Cupa fiat melior muriae: per Norden obibit,” loosely translated as, “When better pickle barrels are built, Norden will hit them, too.” Actually, from that altitude, such a small object would be completely obscured by the bombsight’s crosshairs, so the idea of being that accurate is absurd.

Even for larger targets, though, the Norden bombsight’s accuracy never could have been as good as the strategic bombing doctrine needed it to be, considering the limited engineering and manufacturing capabilities of the time, unwise design choices, inherent errors in the mechanism itself, the complicated physics of bomb ballistics, the hazards of war operations, inadequate training, and poor reliability.

The bombsight’s reputation was also tarnished and costs raised by unnecessary security precautions, unseemly interservice squabbles, and the wasteful policies of the armed services using it. However, because of the great secrecy surrounding its specifications and performance, Washington’s desire to boost public morale, and Norden’s publicists wanting to promote the superiority of their monopoly product, the truth was hidden from the public.

The actual performance of the Norden in combat was good some of the time, but rarely great, and often terrible. Several studies revealed that as few as 5 percent of Eighth Air Force bombs fell within 1,000 feet of the target and the average error for 500-pound bombs dropped in Europe was a whopping 1,673 feet. There are examples of many hundreds of bombs aimed at a single small target with only one or two bombs reaching their mark. Some gross errors were even measured in miles.

Lack of accuracy was an important shortcoming because precision bombing doctrine called for being able to hit targets as small as tennis courts. With a delayed fuse, the 500-pound bomb could blow a crater only some 20 feet in diameter, whereas the bombsight’s error was almost always much larger. Direct hits or massive bomb loads saturating an area were required to accomplish the mission."
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Old No7
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by Old No7 »

I also just found this -- on how the Germans felt about the Norden Bomb Sight...

Old No7

"After hundreds of Norden-equipped bombers were shot down over enemy territory during 1943, Allied officials knew that the Germans had surely studied the bombsight and learned its secrets. As a result, security was finally relaxed. When the war ended, details of the ingenious device were finally made public. But U.S. intelligence experts received a shock when they interrogated Luftwaffe personnel: The Germans had known the bombsight’s secrets even before the war, thanks to a spy at Norden.

Herman W. Lang, a naturalized U.S. citizen, had been employed as a draftsman and inspector at the Norden factory during the 1930s. American authorities didn’t know that he had served as Nazi stormtrooper in Germany between 1923 and 1927. Recruited as a member of the Duquesne Spy Ring, in 1938 Lang gained access to the plans for the bombsight and hand-copied the blueprints, which were then smuggled to Germany via ocean liner. He traveled to Germany for a “vacation” to assist Luftwaffe technical experts, receiving 10,000 Reichsmarks for his efforts. Lang returned to his job in America, but was later betrayed by a double agent, convicted of espionage and sentenced to 18 years in prison.

The Germans built a mock-up of the Norden sight and compared it to the new Lotfernrohr 7, or Lotfe 7, bombsight then being used by the Luftwaffe. The Lotfe 7 was similar in operation to the Norden, but much simpler and easier to operate. It consisted of a single metal casing holding the majority of the mechanism, with a tube extending out the bottom containing a mirror that reflected the image of the target into a small telescope in the box. The mechanisms within combined the functions of the Norden’s stabilizer and optics, moving the mirror to stabilize the image, as well as tracking the target. The Lotfe 7’s controls were also simpler than the Norden’s, consisting mainly of three large knobs to adjust aim.

The Luftwaffe decided their Lotfe 7 was better than the Norden and gave the American device no further consideration. So despite years of extraordinary efforts by U.S. military and civilian authorities to keep the Norden bombsight secret, America’s secret weapon was never secret— except to the American public."
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claybob86
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Re: Norden Bomb Sight

Post by claybob86 »

Interesting stuff. I wonder how close an unguided gravity bomb can get to the pickle barrel from 20,000 feet with today's aircraft.
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