Sure didn't know this!

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Bill in Oregon
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Sure didn't know this!

#1 Post by Bill in Oregon » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:46 pm

... That Bayer developed Heroin in part to help Civil War veterans kick their morphine addictions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... qvv3_BuWEk

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AJMD429
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#2 Post by AJMD429 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:59 pm

Heroin and morphine aren't all that different from a pharmacologic viewpoint. If things had turned out so heroin was the 'normal pain medicine' and morphine was the 'street drug', we'd have the same issues we do now.

Actually, most of the 'issues' of drug use stem from it being illegal, much like all the bootlegging and rum-running crime that became so severe and organized nearly a century ago - the bullets spraying innocent people weren't from the alcohol users, just the sellers. Now we don't have Big Red Liquors and 500 Liquors shooting at each other, because we got smart, and legalized booze. This time though, the bootleggers are smarter, and they have too many others who stand to profit as long as drugs are illegal (mandated counselling programs, mandated rehab, for-profit jails, SWAT teams, and so on), and the politicians realize that having a 'crisis' is always a good way to excuse their other failures, raise taxes, and pass symbolic but useless regulations (the best regulations are actually counterproductive, in that they help perpetuate the problem, providing job security).

They do it with 'gun regulations' too.... :|
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"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "

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jeepnik
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#3 Post by jeepnik » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 pm

We didn’t legalize booze. We decriminalized it. Still way too many laws and restrictions on it to call it legal.

And the biggest reason it was decriminalized had nothing to do with the people’s right to drink. The feds just realized they were missing out on a huge source of revenue. The exact same reason some states have legalized pot.

Eventually the feds are going to realize how much money the states are making on it and take over control of the money making aspects. Much to loss of the states.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#4 Post by Bill in Oregon » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:25 pm

Doc, is it true that heroin is easier to be weaned from than morphine? I have heard it is hell.

Beaker
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#5 Post by Beaker » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:11 pm

Heroin is a morphine derivative: Diacetylmorphine. Easy to synthesize from morphine with increased potency and more addictive.

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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#6 Post by AJMD429 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:30 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 pm
And the biggest reason it was decriminalized had nothing to do with the people’s right to drink. The feds just realized they were missing out on a huge source of revenue. The exact same reason some states have legalized pot.
You got that right....!!!!

As far as the differences between heroin, morphine, dilauded, oycodone, hydrocodone, and codeine, they are kind of like kerosene, gasoline, methanol, benzene, and so on....all 'similar but different'. Subtle differences in metabolism and what organs they concentrate in and so forth (Piller would be the expert on all that - too many years since I left that area of science), but in general they can be substituted for each other to some extent.

Every few years some new 'derivative' of the basic chemical comes out that is supposedly "less addictive", but then in a few years, another new fancy one comes along to replace that one, and we find out the old one WAS actually just as addicting. The cynic in me thinks it is more based on patents and profits than pharmacology most of the time.

It is true that if something hits the right parts of the brain and makes enough dopamine or whatever stimulating chemical that part of the brain needs, it WILL be "addicting". Still, most people raised before the "participation trophy" era are able to exercise self-control over most addictive things most of the time. The key word is "most" - some can't stay off the booze, or the gambling, or levergun-buying (.... :oops: ....), or tobacco, or whatever.

The REAL issue is do we make society a rubber-covered playpen with regards to all dangers, just to cater to those who can't control themselves, or do we demand that people be held responsible for their personal behavior, and try to help them if they are willing to help themselves in turn.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws[/size]
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "

piller
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#7 Post by piller » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:07 pm

Too many people FAIL to understand that some pain can be totally normal. The people whom I see who I would say are addicted are those who like the feeling of being where they don't feel anything. Everyone has a different pain tolerance, but a little self control seems to go a long way toward not going over the wall and becoming addicted.

Tramadol is a synthetic that was supposed to mimic Tylenol-3 with codeine. It took a few years before we learned that taking more than enough would let those who abused it get high. It is now a controlled substance.

We have enough narcotics now for just about any type of pain. Fentanyl (pronounced fent a nil) not fenton-all, is strong enough to kill people who are addicted to heroin. It comes in patches, injectable forms, and suckers for breakthrough pain typical of certain cancers. Narcotics work mostly in the brain, so it is doubtful that we will ever come up with something which works on the pain without any risk of addiction.

Some of us have unusual body chemistry which make addiction easier, or in my case, not likely to narcotics. My liver doesn't process certain things the way that 99.999999 percent of the planet does. Heck, a whiff of sodium pentathol stopped my heart once. If it hadn't happened in a hospital, I wouldn't be here. That was just smelling it after 1 small vial fell and broke while making an IV. I am missing a few of the enzymes that all but about 300 or so of us in the U.S. have. Tylenol is as deadly to me as a bullet to the liver. It also changes the way my liver breaks things down. Some narcotics have to be activated by the liver. Codeine does not become morphine in my liver. Ibuprofen gives more pain relief for me than codeine does. I cannot try hydrocodone, but it is unlikely to activate in me.

Those who have fast liver enzymes tend to be more likely to become addicted to narcotics.
D. Brian Casady
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BlaineG
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#8 Post by BlaineG » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:30 pm
jeepnik wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 pm
And the biggest reason it was decriminalized had nothing to do with the people’s right to drink. The feds just realized they were missing out on a huge source of revenue. The exact same reason some states have legalized pot.
You got that right....!!!!

As far as the differences between heroin, morphine, dilauded, oycodone, hydrocodone, and codeine, they are kind of like kerosene, gasoline, methanol, benzene, and so on....all 'similar but different'. Subtle differences in metabolism and what organs they concentrate in and so forth (Piller would be the expert on all that - too many years since I left that area of science), but in general they can be substituted for each other to some extent.

Every few years some new 'derivative' of the basic chemical comes out that is supposedly "less addictive", but then in a few years, another new fancy one comes along to replace that one, and we find out the old one WAS actually just as addicting. The cynic in me thinks it is more based on patents and profits than pharmacology most of the time.

It is true that if something hits the right parts of the brain and makes enough dopamine or whatever stimulating chemical that part of the brain needs, it WILL be "addicting". Still, most people raised before the "participation trophy" era are able to exercise self-control over most addictive things most of the time. The key word is "most" - some can't stay off the booze, or the gambling, or levergun-buying (.... :oops: ....), or tobacco, or whatever.

The REAL issue is do we make society a rubber-covered playpen with regards to all dangers, just to cater to those who can't control themselves, or do we demand that people be held responsible for their personal behavior, and try to help them if they are willing to help themselves in turn.
*sigh* I took one, seldomly two Hydrocodones under VA for over 10 years....NEVER got addicted. They yanked them suddenly. No problem except I didnt' get the same pain relief I needed. Everybody is different, but Government don't recognize that.
Last edited by BlaineG on Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If You Back Me Into A Corner There Will Not Be Enough Room For Both Of Us. :evil:

piller
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#9 Post by piller » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:16 pm

Blaine, that is the biggest problem. The laws are one size fits no-one.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost

Beaker
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Re: Sure didn't know this!

#10 Post by Beaker » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:02 pm

piller wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:16 pm
Blaine, that is the biggest problem. The laws are one size fits no-one.

+1 Amen to that! :x

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