Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

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Bill in Oregon
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Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Wvfarrier's post on the .450 Marlin upper for the AR-10 prompted me to take a look at the big three big bores that will fit the AR-15 chassis. While others are out there, these include the .450 Bushmaster, the .458 SOCOM and the .50 Beowulf. I understand the appeal of the Bushmaster in those Midwest states that allow straight-walled cartridges for deer season, but beyond that, 250-grain .452 bullets in a rifle cartridge don't interest me a whole lot. I know you can load a bit heavier, but it seems the SOCOM comes into its own with its ability to push heavier .458 slugs to useful velocities -- certainly into Trapdoor .45-70 country, which means getting some serious work done.
The Beowulf is intriguing as well. No question about its "thump factor," but the recoil can be a consideration unless you fit a pretty serious muzzle brake that then makes blast most unpleasant. The other option is recoil reducers, but this means turning a handy AR into a heavy piece of ordinance. That's no fun.
I'm kind of thinking my pick might be the SOCOM, but I have seen comments on a number of forums that for some reason this cartridge will not yield acceptable accuracy with cast bullets. No one seems to quite know why.
If I ever used this on anything, it would likely be hogs.
Any thoughts, experience?
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

I've not shot either of the 45's, but picked the Beowulf because:

a) availability (and) cost of the upper (Alexander Arms got them out early at a good price).
b) availability and cost of ammo.
c) from 300 grain to 500 grain bullet weights usable.
d) more load data for the Beowulf than the other two combined (in AmmoGuide.com at least).
e) "50 is bigger than 45", and bigger was the goal.

Screenshot_2018-12-26-10-29-59-1.png
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare. ... 9&xxglbl=1

I like it because:

All of the above, plus it is almost identical in case volume and bullet selection as my 500 S&W levergun.

It is accurate; I keep a red-dot sight on it, but when I first got it and was testing it out, scoped with a 5-20x variable I could usually hit golfballs, nearly always hit tennisballs, and never miss grapefruits, at 100 yards.

As far as recoil, it seems pretty tame to me; you know you're shooting a real gun, but I'd equate it to a Marlin 1894 with regular 44 Mag factory loads. Maybe less actually after I added a muzzle brake later on (mine came without), but honestly I really added the brake just because it looked cool... :D

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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by piller »

No real experience, but the magazine modifications for the Bushmaster round seem as if they would push the costs up. Whomever knows, please step in.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by piller »

By the way, I am seriously trying to decide on a thumper for an AR 15 receiver I built. The lower is simple to put together.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

piller wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:20 am No real experience, but the magazine modifications for the Bushmaster round seem as if they would push the costs up. Whomever knows, please step in.
My upper came with two magazines, and I mostly use those, but the round feeds just fine from the 'regular' GI magazines I've tried it in (probably 8 or 10 I've used over the years). That's plenty of magazines for my needs.

I've not tried it in any plastic magazines like P-Mags though; I think they need the front sanded down a bit to feed the larger bullets.

Chamber Tactical makes centered replacement followers that 'enhance feeding reliability' for the 458 SOCOM, and add an extra round capacity, and they supposedly work for all the big bore cartridges. I've not tried them since I've had no issues, and 7 rounds is plenty for me (using 20-round 223 mags).

Come to think of it....I do have a 100-round Beta-Mag I should try though.... :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

Bushmaster here, yes the bullet selection is minimal but for what it's designed for I feel 452s are just fine. Would like 300 gr loads for bigger critters. I've loaded some and it's an accurate round/platform but I did have a scope mount / rings come loose from recoil.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bulldog »

I was in the same place as you a while back, deliberating between those 3. After much debate, and research I have decided I will build a 458 SOCOM. Far greater bullet selection than the 452" and 50. Less costly than the 50 cal, both in building and shooting.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by piller »

Bulldog wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:20 pm I was in the same place as you a while back, deliberating between those 3. After much debate, and research I have decided I will build a 458 SOCOM. Far greater bullet selection than the 452" and 50. Less costly than the 50 cal, both in building and shooting.
That has been my inclination, too. I have a Guide Gun, so no pressure as far as time goes.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

Just musing on 'equivalents'...

450 Bushmaster - a 454 Casull semiauto carbine
458 SOCOM - a 45-70 Govt semiauto carbine
50 Beowulf - a 50 S&W semiauto carbine

Not sure if it is a good thing, bad thing, or neither, but another cartridge difference - the SOCOM case is bottlenecked, so presumably headspaces on the shoulder, versus the case mouth - the Beowulf is like the 9mm and 45 ACP and headspaces on the case mouth. Case-mouth headspacing always seemed weird to me, but I guess it works pretty well.

I suppose 454 Casull style (tougher than 'pistol' bullets that diameter) bullets would work for the Bushmaster, but more 45-70 style rifle bullets would be widely available for the SOCOM.

Bottom line I think is any of them will thump pretty hard, and the cartridge selection may be less important than the configuration of the gun you set up for it.

....another thought... :twisted: ...PISTOL length barrels are also available for the Beowulf, and I'm pretty sure the others....wouldn't THAT make a nice home-protection arm-braced or SBR'd gun using subsonics...? Maybe 500 grains at 1,050 fps.... 8)
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by wvfarrier »

As one who has owned all 3:

The 450 shoots flatter and longer than 458/50. It also has less recoil and is easier to reload. 458 has a much better selection of projectiles and is more powerful. 50B was a waste, it cant do anything the other cant do and is considerably more expensive to shoot. Another option to consider....and one im pondering.....is the 357 yeti. It is a 308 casing cut off at the shoulder and necked to use 357 projectiles. The info coming out is VERY promising.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Thanks fellas. Farrier, Tromix has also developed the .375 SOCOM, using the .458 case necked to .375 to run 200-grain bullets at 2,400, besting the .375 Winchester and the wildcat .375 JDJ. Might be useful, but it is closer to medium-bore territory than the others.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by marlinman93 »

I've been puzzled by the whole AR15 upper thing for years? Never understood why almost all of the various uppers cost more than complete guns? Even when looking at complete uppers for the exact same complete rifle, the uppers still usually cost more than the complete gun.
Is this a case of people being willing to pay too much, not investigate the market, or what?
I totally understand the increased price for some rare variation, caliber, or target type upper assembly. But even then the prices seem extravagant for what they're offering.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Vall, complete uppers can run from $200 on up to four figures. I think it is a case of getting every bell and whistle you want -- or at least getting the specs and quality that you want. There seems to be tremendous volatility in the AR market right now. You can get a new, complete Ruger AR15 in .450 Bushmaster for $693 plus shipping from Grabagun. I just happen to have a lower receiver and some parts I have acquired over the years, and got to thinking a big bore might be interesting, as I find the .223s boring, preferring to shoot this round at paper in a precision rifle.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by cas »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:52 am The Beowulf is intriguing as well. No question about its "thump factor," but the recoil can be a consideration unless you fit a pretty serious muzzle brake that then makes blast most unpleasant.
Have you owned one or shot one?

I had one for a while, to me recoil was about equal to a 20ga gas opperated semi auto shotgun, possibly less.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

cas wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:42 pm
Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:52 am The Beowulf is intriguing as well. No question about its "thump factor," but the recoil can be a consideration unless you fit a pretty serious muzzle brake that then makes blast most unpleasant.
Have you owned one or shot one?

I had one for a while, to me recoil was about equal to a 20ga gas opperated semi auto shotgun, possibly less.

About the same as the 450 bushmaster.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by harry »

Hole list of interesting AR15 loadings
https://www.maddogweapons.com/358-yeti.html
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by fordwannabe »

I am a SOCOM guy but I wanted to be able to use factory 5.56 mags, and I had 3 45/70’s already and lots of bullets in stock.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Cas, I haven't owned any of these. I realize that recoil may be overemphasized in this discussion for those of us with experience shooting real big bores.
Harry, I'll have to admit that .358 Yetis is impressive, pushing a 200-grain bullet at 2500 -- well ahead of the .35 Remington and right on the heels of the .358 Winchester.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Grizz »

some peoples are more recoil sensitive than others. guns that are punishing for one person are a non factor for others.

I am interested in the 458 socom because of the bullets it uses... and the performance available at the meplat.....

I am interested in the 50 Beo for the chain-yanker aspect AND the downrange performance.

I could be happy with either in pistol format. Either can be loaded to a viable house-gun, at least if a shotgun can be considered a viable house gun.

I said all of that to open this can of worms:

https://www.primaryarms.com/radical-fir ... -gen3-rail

An entire pistol for less than an upper from elsewhere...

and for the deal-killer review:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Radic ... 21-712406/

how is it even possible to make an upper receiver THIS BAD?

I know and understand and appreciate the idea that if it is NOT the most expensive and esoteric option then it is practically worthless . . . I get that,

BUT. my goal is a proletarian, rolled-up shirt sleeves, down and dirty in the muddy ravine option. The only issue in my mind is this: IS THIS A RELIABLE FIREARM, AS MUCH AS AN AR15 CAN BE? I suppose not based on the report above... so, still looking..

I have a 300BO from radical firearms. It functions well enough, although I have not done the prerequisite 110 round mag-dumps with it to see if it will malfunction next time. It's an AR... the F150 of the auto-loaders.

A note about the radical firearms nomenclature of 12.7x42 ... this is because this is an unlicensed product, which makes their chamber reamer much cheaper to use, and this is ostensibly the reason for the "CHEAP" price-point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Beowulf

I will likely opt for a complete upper receiver only to preclude adding an additional firearm to my herd.

this may be a more viable option:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10199 ... -16-barrel#

OR: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10199 ... -phosphate

So, does anyone have experience of bigger bore uppers or complete firearms from Radical Firearms?

OR any other option, starting with a barrel and build from there??????????????????????

say on men,
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Wonder what kind of quality one can expect from Stoner. I know the name itself goes back to the very beginning.
For $100 more you can have a Tromix upper, which from all I have heard cannot be beaten for twice the money.

https://tromix.com/product/458-socom-co ... ight-hand/

After studying the ballistics, I think the .458 is the best choice for any hunting I would care to do -- and feral hogs are at the top of that list. Not much a guy couldn't accomplish pumping out round after round of Remington 405 jacketed FNs at 1600 fps ...
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by piller »

Kind of higher priced than I wanted to go. I have heard good things about Tromix. Maybe I will go ahead and plan for about $700 or more for an upper.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Piller, Rock River Arms had a well-regarded upper starting at $600.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

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Bill in Oregon wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:35 pm Piller, Rock River Arms had a well-regarded upper starting at $600.
Sounds good. The trigger in my lower cost me more than the entire rest of the lower. I looked up the Rock River Arms upper. I am interested. I think I will buy an 80% lower and fix it for a 6.5 Grendel sometime. Getting a big thumper is at the top of the list for now.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by 6pt-sika »

I’ve loaded for and shot all three . I owned a 450 , killed deer with both the 450 and 50 . In my ALWAYS biased opinion their isn’t an ounce of “practical” difference between the three . The 450 and 50 (for me atleast) were a skoosh easier to load for then the 458 .
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by piller »

I am leaning toward the .458 Socom just because of the bullet selection. Like many on here, I reload and the bigger bullet selection is what I am thinking would be the best reason for choosing one of the three. I also reload my .45-70, and the same size bullets might be an asset. Yes, I realize that they sort of duplicate each other.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

It would be interesting to take some of the more common "which is better" cartridges, build identical firearms to shoot them, and have various gun experts and hobbyists shoot them without being allowed to see the actual cartridges.

With fairly equivalent loads, I'm doubting very many could tell the difference between:

308 & 30-06
45 Colt and 44 Mag
458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf

or even

:o

45-70 and 444 Marlin.... :D

So I think it mostly comes down to component availability/commonality, personal preference, and marketing. The SHOOTER is nearly always the weak link and/or limiting factor when it comes to success; not the cartridge.

If someone wants to do the gun-builds, and provide the ammo, I'd be glad to do the tests.... :wink:
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

Was looking at the 358 Yeti. I've just stripped down an upper and I'm thinking about a medium bore. Either 24 Nosler or the yeti.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

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GunnyMack wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:40 pm Was looking at the 358 Yeti. I've just stripped down an upper and I'm thinking about a medium bore. Either 24 Nosler or the yeti.
I just might be intrested if Nosler necked the 6mm Nosler up to 6.5mm . Already did the 22 Nosler as well .
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

6pt-sika wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:04 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:40 pm Was looking at the 358 Yeti. I've just stripped down an upper and I'm thinking about a medium bore. Either 24 Nosler or the yeti.
I just might be intrested if Nosler necked the 6mm Nosler up to 6.5mm . Already did the 22 Nosler as well .
They do have the 26 Nosler but it wont fit in an AR...
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by 6pt-sika »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:21 am
6pt-sika wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:04 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:40 pm Was looking at the 358 Yeti. I've just stripped down an upper and I'm thinking about a medium bore. Either 24 Nosler or the yeti.
I just might be intrested if Nosler necked the 6mm Nosler up to 6.5mm . Already did the 22 Nosler as well .
They do have the 26 Nosler but it wont fit in an AR...
I built a 26 Nosler three years ago . A 6.5 on the 22/24 Nosler case might be intresting .
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Well, as long as we are no longer looking at big bores, I will admit being intrigued with the 6.5 Grendel on the AR-15 platform. I have been fond of the 6.5s since buying my first Swedish Mauser 30 years ago. The idea of a 100-grain Barnes Triple Shock at 2800 out of an AR capable of shooting in the .3s at 100 yards is most tantalizing. The Grendel may not have power to spare, but neither does another favorite that hits above its weight class, the .250 Savage.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

The Grendel is a good round for sure. I'd be tempted to do one. But on the other hand I'm starting to think I might sell off a couple ARs- I just don't use them.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Paladin »

I went with the 458 SOCOM for cost and mags it works well. I leave it at the house in Alaska so I don't have to carry it through Canada.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Grizz »

Paladin wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:55 am I went with the 458 SOCOM for cost and mags it works well. I leave it at the house in Alaska so I don't have to carry it through Canada.
I'm headed that direction. I have an unfinished upper and available lower, what parts are necessary if I buy a barrel, plus which barrel should I buy, or should I just bite the bullet, lead poisoning not withstanding, and buy this:

https://www.andersonmanufacturing.com/p ... 6-carbine/

Just wondering. Also thinking a 12" barrel on my pistol lower would be a LOT handier in the bear's woods...

thanks for any input
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

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Grizz wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:50 pm
Paladin wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:55 am I went with the 458 SOCOM for cost and mags it works well. I leave it at the house in Alaska so I don't have to carry it through Canada.
I'm headed that direction. I have an unfinished upper and available lower, what parts are necessary if I buy a barrel, plus which barrel should I buy, or should I just bite the bullet, lead poisoning not withstanding, and buy this:

https://www.andersonmanufacturing.com/p ... 6-carbine/

Just wondering. Also thinking a 12" barrel on my pistol lower would be a LOT handier in the bear's woods...

thanks for any input
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Grizz, if you poke around over on the .458 SOCOM forum you'll find some great advice. If I were to build a SOCOM, I would get the barrel or the whole upper -- made right -- from Tromix.
https://tromix.com/
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

There is also the 375 SOCOM.
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by 6pt-sika »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:26 am Well, as long as we are no longer looking at big bores, I will admit being intrigued with the 6.5 Grendel on the AR-15 platform. I have been fond of the 6.5s since buying my first Swedish Mauser 30 years ago. The idea of a 100-grain Barnes Triple Shock at 2800 out of an AR capable of shooting in the .3s at 100 yards is most tantalizing. The Grendel may not have power to spare, but neither does another favorite that hits above its weight class, the .250 Savage.
I have three Grendel’s ones an AR and the other two are bolt actions . The CZ 527 HB I have has done a good bit better then .3” a couple times already .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

I'd also lean towards getting a 'complete upper' in whichever non-5.56-NATO chambering you decide on; too many issues to get just right, and ultimately the savings aren't likely to be all that great. Granted, if you have a pile of 'AR-parts' then you may have all the springs, pins, latches, handguards, and stuff you need, that could save some money, but when I faced that decision I realized that if I used all those parts up, I'd be replacing them sooner or later anyway so I had 'spare parts', so why not just get an upper all set up just right from the get-go...

I have seen plenty of YouTube videos of Beowulfs, so I know they are out there. Same for the SOCOM - https://youtu.be/vAuooVpHBB0

Check this out - I don't think the shorter barrel caused any decrease in penetration of this 325 grain Speer Gold Dot bullet....https://youtu.be/Dl4_PEbXd8s :shock:
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Grizz »

thanks for the links and other info... going the upper route doesn't snag the trip-wire in the new wa state statist statisms . . .

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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by Grizz »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:24 pm There is also the 375 SOCOM.
sorry, 375 and "big bore" don't equate, do they? :lol:
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by AJMD429 »

Grizz wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:55 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:24 pmThere is also the 375 SOCOM.
sorry, 375 and "big bore" don't equate, do they? :lol:
Well....in the context of the LEVERGUNS forum....maybe they do.....
Image :D 375 Winchester 94 Big Bore. :D
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by 6pt-sika »

AJMD429 wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:23 pm I'd also lean towards getting a 'complete upper' in whichever non-5.56-NATO chambering you decide on; too many issues to get just right, and ultimately the savings aren't likely to be all that great. Granted, if you have a pile of 'AR-parts' then you may have all the springs, pins, latches, handguards, and stuff you need, that could save some money, but when I faced that decision I realized that if I used all those parts up, I'd be replacing them sooner or later anyway so I had 'spare parts', so why not just get an upper all set up just right from the get-go...

I have seen plenty of YouTube videos of Beowulfs, so I know they are out there. Same for the SOCOM - https://youtu.be/vAuooVpHBB0

Check this out - I don't think the shorter barrel caused any decrease in penetration of this 325 grain Speer Gold Dot bullet....https://youtu.be/Dl4_PEbXd8s :shock:
When I bought the 450 I already had a NIB Bushmaster lower so I just bought a complete Bushmaster upper and went from there . Did the same when I got the Grendel complete upper from Alex Arms and a NIB Rock River lower that I replaced the trigger . Only thing I’ve built was the 260 upper for my AR-10 .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
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Re: Which of the AR-15 "big bores"

Post by GunnyMack »

Grizz wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:55 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:24 pm There is also the 375 SOCOM.
sorry, 375 and "big bore" don't equate, do they? :lol:


But it works for mid bore :D
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