Anyone Use A Cast 510 Grain In A Marlin 45 70

[lever1886]

Matt's bullets has a gas check 510 grain that looks like it may cycle in a Marlin 45 70 Guide Gun.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?m ... cts_id=252

Has anyone used a 510 grain in a newer marlin ? Could you get 1300 - 1400 fps without excessive recoil ? would there be any advantage over the 405 grain cast in a hunting load ?

Thanks

[fordwannabe]

I have used a 500 grain bullet in a 1895but in subsonic loads only. They do take up a lot of your powder capacity, no big deal for my usage but depending on what you want to do could be an issue. As to advantage over a 405, in a subsonic load it hits the backing board with noticeably more impact noise. Good luck.

[earlmck]

Nice looking bullet there. Not cheap are they? You'll have no problem getting the velocity you are looking for (think RL-7, 3031, 5744 -- any of the usual suspects). As for the recoil? Well M1V1=M2V2 still as far as I know. It is going to set you back a bit.

[Sixgun]

I used to have a mould for this.....with lube and gas check they come out to about 600 grains. They shot great out of an original Sharps and an 1886 Winchester.......but even at 1100 they pushed back like a 12 ga. shotgun........sold the rifle and the mould but did cast a couple of hundred first.-----Count Sixula

.22 cast with a 30 caliber 170 TCGC tapered bullet in the middle.

[HawkCreek]

I dont know about those bullets but I used to shoot Garrett's 540 grain loads out of my 1895. I dont remember the velocity but it was a dangerous game load. Recoil want bad at all.

[lever1886]

Looking at the Lyman 50th Book they have a 45 70 trapdoor load with a 500 cast bullet with a max of 34 grains of Reloader 7 for published 1284 fps and 15,100 CUP.

They do not have any data for a 500 grain cast bullet in the Marlin Rifle Data.

They do have a load in the #1 Ruger section STARTING at 44 grains of Reloader 7 with a 500 grain cast bullet for 27,500 CUP pressure.

So where would you start for the Marlin guide gun ? 36-37 grains of reloader 7 with the 510 grain cast bullet ? Only have a few of them to try.

Thanks for the help

[Leverluver]

I'd be careful with "load switching" as I am sure that the loads for the single shots were using a bullet that had most of it's weight/length outside the case...more like Sixgun's. The bullet you are looking at has it's weight/length inside the case. I did some testing (with pressure equipment) using the 540 grain and you should not expect either the velocity nor the pressures you quoted from those manuals. You need to find loads that are for lever gun cartridge OAL and pressures. I do believe that you can achieve your velocity but only with the best powders and they won't be pressure wimps.

[lever1886]

Yes, this bullet would be seated deeply into the case. Going to hold off loading any until I can get some feedback from someone who has loaded this actual bullet.

Thanks to everyone for their help

[Pete44ru]

Matt's bullets has a gas check 510 grain that looks like it may cycle in a Marlin 45 70 Guide Gun.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?m ... cts_id=252

Has anyone used a 510 grain in a newer marlin ?

Could you get 1300 - 1400 fps without excessive recoil ?

would there be any advantage over the 405 grain cast in a hunting load ?

My comment is: OUCH ! !

The Marlin 336/1895 is a relatively lightweight rifle, compared to ( say) a Winchester 1886/86 rifle - and can walk the shooter out from under their hat.

IMO, the only way to get lesser recoil with that heavy a .45 bullet would be to use little or no powder...……….

I even quit using 400gr slugs in my .45-70's over 30 years ago - but enjoyed shooting 300ge JSP's in them (I've had several different .45-70 rifles of every different action type over the years.)

My opinion, of course, is worth every cent you paid.


.

[crs]

"My opinion, of course, is worth every cent you paid. "

My unloaded Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD .45-90 weighs 9.5 pounds and after trying bullet weights from 300 to 500 grains, I settled on 300 for North American game for the reasons in the above posts.

For African plains game and leopard 300 is fine and we used heavier bullets only for DG such as buffalo and ele.

[6pt-sika]

BallitiCast makes a 462-550GC mold and of course once upon a time I had one . It worked very nicely in a couple of the Marlin 1895 45-70’s that I also “used to” own .

[lever1886]

Mattsbullets 510 grain 45 cal bullet measures .828 from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.
Overall length looks like 2.509 seated in a 45 70 case.

From another forum an established member is using a 550 grain NEI bullet seated .895 into the case, using 35.5 grains of reloader 7 in their marlin with good results and said it duplicated the Garrett load.

I have not tried or confirmed this but it seems like a good baseline of what to expect.

[earlmck]

Mattsbullets 510 grain 45 cal bullet measures .828 from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.
Overall length looks like 2.509 seated in a 45 70 case.

From another forum an established member is using a 550 grain NEI bullet seated .895 into the case, using 35.5 grains of reloader 7 in their marlin with good results and said it duplicated the Garrett load.

I have not tried or confirmed this but it seems like a good baseline of what to expect.

Thanks for the dimensions lever1886. I plugged those into QuickLoad and QL says this 35.5 grain RL7 load would be at the upper end of "Ruger only" pressure levels. And QL is a close predictor of velocities in my 45/70 so I would bet it is not overestimating pressures by much. QL thinks you shouldn't exceed 33 grains of RL7 for a Marlin with that bullet. My guess is that the fellow on the other forum is pushing the envelope pretty hard with his 550 grain load.

[lever1886]

Mattsbullets 510 grain 45 cal bullet measures .828 from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.
Overall length looks like 2.509 seated in a 45 70 case.

From another forum an established member is using a 550 grain NEI bullet seated .895 into the case, using 35.5 grains of reloader 7 in their marlin with good results and said it duplicated the Garrett load.

I have not tried or confirmed this but it seems like a good baseline of what to expect.

Thanks for the dimensions lever1886. I plugged those into QuickLoad and QL says this 35.5 grain RL7 load would be at the upper end of "Ruger only" pressure levels. And QL is a close predictor of velocities in my 45/70 so I would bet it is not overestimating pressures by much. QL thinks you shouldn't exceed 33 grains of RL7 for a Marlin with that bullet. My guess is that the fellow on the other forum is pushing the envelope pretty hard with his 550 grain load.

That is excellent info, thank you.
May start at 30 grains and work up to 33 grains.

Does Quickload have an estimate of velocity at 33 grains of RL7 ? Did you plug the 550 grain bullet in quickloads and the 510 grain bullet as well ?

Really appreciate the help.

[lever1886]

Overall length looks like 2.509 seated in a 45 70 case


Mattsbullets 510 grain 45 cal bullet measures .828 from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.


Mattsbullets .458 510 grain bullet Compared to Meister Bullets 405 grain and 300 grain .458 bullets

[earlmck]

That is excellent info, thank you.
May start at 30 grains and work up to 33 grains.

Does Quickload have an estimate of velocity at 33 grains of RL7 ? Did you plug the 550 grain bullet in quickloads and the 510 grain bullet as well ?

Really appreciate the help.

Using your dimensional info QL thinks 33 grains RL7 would be right at SAAMI max of 28k psi and get 1400 fps from 18.5" bbl. And I wouldn't load such a load from a QuickLoad estimate without finding confirming information in a lab-tested loading manual or similar source.

The 550 grain bullet seated to a longer COAL with 35.5 grains RL7 is estimated at 1500 fps and 42k psi.

I would note that you are not going to see any pressure signs at 42k psi. The primer might be a little flatter than from the 28k psi load but that would be all you could see, even though the load is well above pressures you would want your Marlin to be taking on.

QuickLoad thinks if your really had to have 1500 fps with this bullet the only powder that would get you there within 28k psi would be Accurate 2495. That is outside my personal experience -- my smokeless load for the 500 grain bullet in my 10 lb/26" bbl 45/70 is 18 grains of blue dot for exactly duplicating black powder velocities of around 1150 fps. This is not an unpleasant load to shoot but I wouldn't enjoy it much hotter.

[lever1886]

That is excellent info, thank you.
May start at 30 grains and work up to 33 grains.

Does Quickload have an estimate of velocity at 33 grains of RL7 ? Did you plug the 550 grain bullet in quickloads and the 510 grain bullet as well ?

Really appreciate the help.

Using your dimensional info QL thinks 33 grains RL7 would be right at SAAMI max of 28k psi and get 1400 fps from 18.5" bbl. And I wouldn't load such a load from a QuickLoad estimate without finding confirming information in a lab-tested loading manual or similar source.

The 550 grain bullet seated to a longer COAL with 35.5 grains RL7 is estimated at 1500 fps and 42k psi.

I would note that you are not going to see any pressure signs at 42k psi. The primer might be a little flatter than from the 28k psi load but that would be all you could see, even though the load is well above pressures you would want your Marlin to be taking on.

QuickLoad thinks if your really had to have 1500 fps with this bullet the only powder that would get you there within 28k psi would be Accurate 2495. That is outside my personal experience -- my smokeless load for the 500 grain bullet in my 10 lb/26" bbl 45/70 is 18 grains of blue dot for exactly duplicating black powder velocities of around 1150 fps. This is not an unpleasant load to shoot but I wouldn't enjoy it much hotter.

Extremely helpful,
Thank you very much

[lever1886]

Looks like Beartooth bullets has a pile driver 525 grain bullet that they say will feed in a Marlin Lever action.
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletsele ... php?id=117
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

They are slightly longer ( 1.280 ) than the Mattsbullets 510 grain ( 1.240) so they would seat ever so slightly deeper in the case.
Going to get a box of these to try as well.
The advantage would be a .375 metplat diameter versus a .350 Metplat diameter on the mattsbullets 510 grain. The Metplat diameter on the beartooth bullet is even larger than the Garrett 540 grain of .360.

OK, a little more searching and I found the load data for the 45 70 from Beartooth bullets:
Found it on a link from this article
http://www.fortyfiveseventy.com/bullets ... r-bullets/

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/ ... ght.htm/21

[earlmck]

Very interesting, Lever1886. That load data showing over 44 grains of RL7 really got my attention, so I ran those loads through QuickLoad. QL agreed reasonably closely for most of the powders shown but QL thinks that load of RL7 would go over 70k psi and the IMR 4198 load go almost 70k psi. And QL thought you'd get about 150fps more velocity out of the AA4895 load.

I'm guessing RL7 acts a lot different in a straight-walled case or Beartooth would have paid for a few wrecked rifles and changed their load table. But this kid would have trouble making himself use anything approaching 40 grains of RL7 until I watched somebody else do it....

[lever1886]

Very interesting, Lever1886. That load data showing over 44 grains of RL7 really got my attention, so I ran those loads through QuickLoad. QL agreed reasonably closely for most of the powders shown but QL thinks that load of RL7 would go over 70k psi and the IMR 4198 load go almost 70k psi. And QL thought you'd get about 150fps more velocity out of the AA4895 load.

I'm guessing RL7 acts a lot different in a straight-walled case or Beartooth would have paid for a few wrecked rifles and changed their load table. But this kid would have trouble making himself use anything approaching 40 grains of RL7 until I watched somebody else do it....

Yes, the straight walled case must make a big difference as I can't see how Beartooth would publish these loads and claim that they are below 40K pressure in today's litigation world .

Garrett is advertising 1550 fps with a 540 grain bullet so they must be loading with a similar pressure level
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570540tech.html

This is what Garrett says about chamber pressure in a Modern lever action:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

Buffalo bore advertises a 45 70 load with a 500 grain bullet at 1625 fps. They must load these to a similar pressure as the Beartooth and Garrett.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=154

It's hard to believe Beartooth, Garrett and Buffalo Bore would encourage the use of a load that was not safe in a Newer 1895 Marlin. At the very least you would see some online comments or concerns about any issues.

For dangerous game at close range it would be hard to beat one of the 510 - 540 grain loads.

Going to try some Mattbullets and some Beartooth bullets and work up some loads with a chrony. My guide gun barrel is only 16 1/2" long so there will be some velocity loss but if I could get to 1450 - 1500 fps that would be outstanding.
These are not for everyday plinking or casual shooting but for a serious load when needed.

On another forums one member says that they use 39 grains of Reloader 7 with the 525 grain beartooth piledriver bullet and they backed down from 40 grains and the recoil was less. Another member said they are shooting the 525 grain pile driver behind 40.5 grains of reloader 7 in the .457 wild west case and getting 1550 fps. They said you know something as happened when you pull the trigger.

Well, I think I have researched it all I can and the next step is to just load up some rounds and give it a try.

[Grizz]

Looks like Beartooth bullets has a pile driver 525 grain bullet that they say will feed in a Marlin Lever action.
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletsele ... php?id=117
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

They are slightly longer ( 1.280 ) than the Mattsbullets 510 grain ( 1.240) so they would seat ever so slightly deeper in the case.
Going to get a box of these to try as well.
The advantage would be a .375 metplat diameter versus a .350 Metplat diameter on the mattsbullets 510 grain. The Metplat diameter on the beartooth bullet is even larger than the Garrett 540 grain of .360.

OK, a little more searching and I found the load data for the 45 70 from Beartooth bullets:
Found it on a link from this article
http://www.fortyfiveseventy.com/bullets ... r-bullets/

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/ ... ght.htm/21

this piledriver is the only 45/70 bullet I use. I've shot one load from a variety of 45/70s, including a couple of pistols. I developed it for my stainless guide gun, 'cause I'm skeerd of bears. From Blaines 10" revolver I think we were getting around 13xxfps, and from my guide gun I got something like 1425 or so, and from the 32" single shot it fizzed out at around 15xx. It's been shot by lots of people from quite a few guns. I can't find my notes so I'm not venturing any guesses as to the specific load. It is one that is significantly under max pressures for the firearms I use.... It is one that I liked and have never changed because it works fine.

Blaine has shot it from several guns too. The link on Marshall's site referencing the video is broken. I have it here and if a mod wants to host it and post it I'll send it along.

there should still be a lot of info on Paco's site if you search for grizz or pile driver... the whole concept spawned masses of wild opinions. I just experimented until I found a solution for my guns.

if you use the TKO formula to compare bullet weights at similar velocities you will see that there is a load of difference at the business end of the meplat between a 525gr bullet and a 300gr bullet. a heavy for caliber slow bullet will out-penetrate a light for caliber fast bullet. TKO helps explain it.

so, the 510 should be a mighty good load. marshall's series is 325, 425, and 525gr, all of which are identical from crimp to meplat. I've loaded all of them and still use the 525. If I ever were to start experimenting I would make a 475gr with the piledriver nose and run it around 1450 from my long guns. just a hunch about what might be another sweet spot.

good night

[lever1886]

Looks like Beartooth bullets has a pile driver 525 grain bullet that they say will feed in a Marlin Lever action.
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletsele ... php?id=117
https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

They are slightly longer ( 1.280 ) than the Mattsbullets 510 grain ( 1.240) so they would seat ever so slightly deeper in the case.
Going to get a box of these to try as well.
The advantage would be a .375 metplat diameter versus a .350 Metplat diameter on the mattsbullets 510 grain. The Metplat diameter on the beartooth bullet is even larger than the Garrett 540 grain of .360.

OK, a little more searching and I found the load data for the 45 70 from Beartooth bullets:
Found it on a link from this article
http://www.fortyfiveseventy.com/bullets ... r-bullets/

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/ ... ght.htm/21

this piledriver is the only 45/70 bullet I use. I've shot one load from a variety of 45/70s, including a couple of pistols. I developed it for my stainless guide gun, 'cause I'm skeerd of bears. From Blaines 10" revolver I think we were getting around 13xxfps, and from my guide gun I got something like 1425 or so, and from the 32" single shot it fizzed out at around 15xx. It's been shot by lots of people from quite a few guns. I can't find my notes so I'm not venturing any guesses as to the specific load. It is one that is significantly under max pressures for the firearms I use.... It is one that I liked and have never changed because it works fine.

Blaine has shot it from several guns too. The link on Marshall's site referencing the video is broken. I have it here and if a mod wants to host it and post it I'll send it along.

there should still be a lot of info on Paco's site if you search for grizz or pile driver... the whole concept spawned masses of wild opinions. I just experimented until I found a solution for my guns.

if you use the TKO formula to compare bullet weights at similar velocities you will see that there is a load of difference at the business end of the meplat between a 525gr bullet and a 300gr bullet. a heavy for caliber slow bullet will out-penetrate a light for caliber fast bullet. TKO helps explain it.

so, the 510 should be a mighty good load. marshall's series is 325, 425, and 525gr, all of which are identical from crimp to meplat. I've loaded all of them and still use the 525. If I ever were to start experimenting I would make a 475gr with the piledriver nose and run it around 1450 from my long guns. just a hunch about what might be another sweet spot.

good night

Good to hear. Will try and place and order for the Piledriver 525 grain bullets tomorrow.
If you could find your load info I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank You

[Grizz]

I will keep this post in mind and when I get the specifics will forward them. Be advised it might be well into the century because I am in the process of blending a couple of piles of "stuff". I suppose my load is more readily available from this site or beartooth forums...

I shoot heavy for caliber as a matter of course, 405gr in my redhawk for example. there are loads of palaver concerning this on this site, or there was. there is still a bunch of it on the beartooth forums... nose-clips help...

Best Regards,