Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

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308magtip
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Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#1 Post by 308magtip » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:21 am

Age old million $$ question.Which is better for general purpose cleaning on well maintained rifle barrels? A pull thru dropped down the breach with brush/patch attachments cleaning from breach to muzzle? A stiff rod with some kind of a rod guide from muzzle to breach? In the Army I had to clean my M-14 with the sectioned rod from muzzle to breach.The M-14 with the muzzle flash hider on the end of the barrel must have kept the end of the barrel and rifling from damage of the steel rod. I have a win 64,88,and 94 lever guns I most always use a coated cable with screw on patch and brush.At the range I usually run a Bore Snake till I have bench time at home for the cable system.Also the ratching chamber brush of the M-1 and M-14 rifles works well.2 of my .22 rf's I cannot remove the bolt for breach end cleaning.Because of the short bolt throw standard length brushes will not fit while trying to attach the cable at the breach end.The one I have I must stick the jag thru the patch then screw it onto the cale so the batch folds down over the jag like a push thru.I found a flex short pistol rod which can be used for chambers. Looking for any advice,comments on this post...

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#2 Post by Richardx » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:25 am

As time progresses I have gone pull through on everything but front stuffers.

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#3 Post by J Miller » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:33 pm

I use the steel rods with the bore guide on all my rifles. Since I don't use corrosive priming there is no need to clean the rifles after each shooting session. I usually wait till I'm home and do it then.

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#4 Post by BlaineG » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:17 pm

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't see how an aluminum rod will hurt a steel barrel....
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#5 Post by 765x53 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:46 pm

Some years ago an article appeared in "Muzzle Blasts" about an experiment to determine the erosive effects of different rod materials.
The experimenters devised a test of wood, fiberglass, aluminum, steel, and stainless steel. To their surprise the only material that eroded the barrel after 24 hours of abrading was stainless steel.
They were so surprised, they ran the experiment again with the same result.
Unfortunately "Muzzle Blasts" does not archive their articles on line. I will see if I can find the article in my collection if any one is interested in the issue date.

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#6 Post by octagon » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Bore snakes. Love em, very compact in ammo bag.

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#7 Post by fordwannabe » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:28 pm

Bore snakes For general regular cleaning and steel rods with guides(breech end on MARlins and bolt guns muzzle end on semis and Winchester’s) for more in depth cleaning or leading removal if needed.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#8 Post by Griff » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:04 pm

I only use a bore snake at the range for convenience. In all other instances I use a steel rod with either a bore guide, or a chamber guide on removable bolt guns.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#9 Post by AJMD429 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:45 am

My biggest frustration with the "rods" is that THEY ALL SEEM TO HAVE THEIR OWN STUPID THREAD SIZES AND NONE OF THEM SEEM TO INTERCHANGE, OR WHEN THEY DO (sort of) THEY HAVE DIFFERENT LENGTH COLLARS OR SHROUDS AND STILL WONT INTERCHANGE.....! :evil:

[/rant off]

I finally got two carbon-fiber one-piece Tipton rods ( https://www.btibrands.com/product/delu ... aning-rod/) and a set of brass jags, brushes, and plastic tips all from the same company, and THREW ALL THE OTHER RODS AWAY....! :D

.....but I also really like the Bore-Snakes and use them most often. :? The rods and brushes and tips are for the occasional 'deep' cleaning, but at least they all fit together without having to use a bunch of 'adapters'.... 8)
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#10 Post by Ray » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:45 am
My biggest frustration with the "rods" is that THEY ALL SEEM TO HAVE THEIR OWN STUPID THREAD SIZES AND NONE OF THEM SEEM TO INTERCHANGE, OR WHEN THEY DO (sort of) THEY HAVE DIFFERENT LENGTH COLLARS OR SHROUDS AND STILL WONT INTERCHANGE.....! :evil:

[/rant off]

I finally got two carbon-fiber one-piece Tipton rods ( https://www.btibrands.com/product/delu ... aning-rod/) and a set of brass jags, brushes, and plastic tips all from the same company, and THREW ALL THE OTHER RODS AWAY....! :D

.....but I also really like the Bore-Snakes and use them most often. :? The rods and brushes and tips are for the occasional 'deep' cleaning, but at least they all fit together without having to use a bunch of 'adapters'.... 8)
The only thing more frustrating than the myriad of gun cleaning implement's threads are the equally confusing number of different percussion nipple threads.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#11 Post by Old No7 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:23 am

BlaineG wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:17 pm
Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't see how an aluminum rod will hurt a steel barrel....
Remember that just cutting paper will soon dull a steel blade.

Plus another concern is that aluminum, being soft, can be imbedded with harder particles that will scour the bore.

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#12 Post by marlinman93 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm

Even metals that are much softer than barrel steel will eventually wear on the barrel. If it wasn't possible, then shooters who shoot only cast lead bullets wouldn't ever wear out their barrels. But there's historic proof that shooters have indeed worn out their rifling after thousands of shots fired.
I personally wont use a pull through on a regular basis as I think there's no way to pull straight through, and not wear on the edge of the chamber or crown. But I do use them in my cleaning kit taken during hunting season in case I need to wipe down the bore during a wet day of hunting.
I use only coated steel rods, and a bore guide to keep them centered. My Dewey rods all take standard jags and brushes, so if you want a high quality steel rod that accepts standard brushes they're the finest I know of. I tossed all my other rods out after getting Dewey rods.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#13 Post by Sixgun » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:42 pm

It all comes down to "if you give a shyt or not". For 98% of my cleaning over the past 40+ years, I have used a one piece steel rod. If I can clean from the breech I do it. On guns I clean from the muzzle, I always turn the gun upside down so the dirt from the first or second pass will drop out of the action, due to gravity.

heres the key...and it's not hard to do.......pay attention, as your passing the rod through that you don't hit the crown or the chamber edge and for the first several swipes, wipe the grit off the rod :D

Just as a one gun example, a gun that's been friends of hundreds of guns here over the years...A Remington heavy barrel varminter in 22-250 that I bought new in 1973...my first gun that I bought at the legal age of 18.....this gun would be a perfect example of my experiences......it's logged over 3K of full pressure rounds. Back in the day it was a 95% consistent 3/4" gun, sometimes a little better and sometimes a little worse. I shot it a couple of months ago, the accuracy is the same.

I just wish it had a faster twist so I could shoot the 69 grainers so soon, the barrel is coming off.---6
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#14 Post by Grizz » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:40 pm

I use a string with a small eye in one end. pass it down the barrel where I choke a patch and clean from the chamber up. don't like pushing "stuff" into the chamber and action... a me thing

ciao

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#15 Post by BlaineG » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:12 pm

Even metals that are much softer than barrel steel will eventually wear on the barrel. If it wasn't possible, then shooters who shoot only cast lead bullets wouldn't ever wear out their barrels
I believe you're ignoring the white hot gasses and abrasion of the powder while shooting. You may or may not have noticed that red hot metal is rather malleable.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#16 Post by piller » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:28 pm

I like the convenience of pull through such as Bore Snake. I use coated rods at home some. The only rifle I ever had a problem with was a Marlin Glenfield 60 18 shot .22lr which I bought second hand. It eventually lost accuracy. After trying Ed's Red, I think it was just a little leaded up. I got Paco's AccRzr tool and the accuracy is as good as I can shoot, and that is with any ammo. 1 inch or smaller groups at 50 yards with it no matter which ammo used is good enough for me. The crown and rifling at the crown do not appear to be damaged in any way from my cleaning methods when I was younger. Maybe I should have kept the strings of lead that the Ed's Red got out.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#17 Post by rossim92 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm

fordwannabe wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:28 pm
Bore snakes For general regular cleaning and steel rods with guides(breech end on MARlins and bolt guns muzzle end on semis and Winchester’s) for more in depth cleaning or leading removal if needed.
+1
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#18 Post by AJMD429 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:27 pm

marlinman93 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 pm
Even metals that are much softer than barrel steel will eventually wear on the barrel.
Yep. Look at what WATER does to hard stone, given time.

It is likely sort of a 'ratio' thing. In other words if something is 10 times harder than the other thing, rubbing them together results in 10 times as much wear on the softer one, but does indeed wear the harder one.

With muzzles of guns, even a SMALL amount of wear is a big deal, especially if it isn't symmetric, so wearing a bunch off of your aluminum/fiberglass rod is accompanied by a small amount of muzzle-steel wear, which IS a big deal.

The Tipton rods I use are great though. I took an old chunk of muzzle I'd cut off, and intentionally messed with it with the carbon-fiber Tipton, and after a thousand intentionally-rough strokes trying to scrape one side of the 'muzzle' (of the barrel chunk), I couldn't see any major wear. Carbon-fiber is impressively strong, and impressively flexible, but evidently is NOT very abrasive.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#19 Post by AJMD429 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:34 pm

"I got Paco's AccRzr tool and the accuracy is as good as I can shoot, and that is with any ammo."

Yep....that tool is an impressive little gadget....!
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#20 Post by Treetop » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:21 pm

An old NRA Service Rifle, Master class shooter, showed me this trick decades ago. I've used it ever since on all my rifles that don't have an easily removed bolt. The illustration shows a .243 cartridge case that I cut off with tubing cutter. Semper Fi, Treetop

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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#21 Post by marlinman93 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:50 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:12 pm
Even metals that are much softer than barrel steel will eventually wear on the barrel. If it wasn't possible, then shooters who shoot only cast lead bullets wouldn't ever wear out their barrels
I believe you're ignoring the white hot gasses and abrasion of the powder while shooting. You may or may not have noticed that red hot metal is rather malleable.
If this was really a big consideration then modern rifles with much higher chamber pressures and velocities would wear out even faster. Plus they shoot jacketed bullets, that are harder than cast lead.
The fact is the burning powder and gases have nowhere near the effect on rifling that the wear of bullets and cleaning rods misused have. If they did, then I'd like someone to explain how a cleaning rod of aluminum can be used occasionally (or misused) and create wear at the muzzle, yet thousands of shots fired wont wear the muzzle?
And the metal does not reach "red hot" status, or the bores would melt, and you couldn't touch the barrel. Only machineguns fired at high speed reach "red hot" levels.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#22 Post by BlaineG » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:58 pm

The temp of burning smokless, under pressure, is well over 3000....the bbl might not get that hot, but the edges of the rifling sure as heck does. Come on, ppl, use some common sense.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#23 Post by piller » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:00 pm

Flame erosion does indeed occur, and it happens even with the best of heat treated barrels. A 7mm Rem Magnum will have a much shorter barrel life than a .308 in the same manufacturer and model of rifle. That said, the longer time in contact and the off center pressure and abrasion of a badly used aluminum rod is damaging to steel. Rifle barrels are not as hard as knife blades or else they would risk shattering when fired. The right steel at the right hardness is a science unto itself for figuring out the proper range of hardness-flexibility-wear resistance-and other properties for any given application. Rifle barrel steel is chosen for several reasons. Wear resistance is most certainly a property necessary for barrel steel.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#24 Post by Sixgun » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:20 pm

I still say some people read too much.....different results from different pressures and different bullets.

I personally know a guy who has 50,000 rounds of cast bullets out of an old model Ruger Blackhawk.....all target loads. The gun still shoots fine.

Cleaning rods damage from the grit on the rod and people rubbing the rod on the crown and even then, you and I won't notice the damage in normal rifles. The only guy who is going to notice is the benchrest shooter and instead of 1 inch groups at 300 yards, he might get 2 inch groups. I've owned many rifles from the blackpowder era that were about minus any crown and still shot 4-5" at 100.

Very light charges of fast burning powders will still leave the next owner 50 years from now good shooting. 6 grains of Bullseye and a 180 cast is all I have ever used out of a Colt Lightning in 38-40 and I've got ....going from memory...5,000 rounds...yep, barrel, throat and crown still look like it when I bought the gun some 30 years ago.

Al Faust, a one time nation silhouette champion told me personally he had over 5,000 rounds of full power jacketed out of a 30-30 Winchester and it still shoots like it did when he bought it new.

All of this "pull through, steel rod, aluminum rod, jointed rod are nothing more that marketing gimmicks as this is America, the land of capitalism and everyone wants a piece of th action.

Use whatever you want to use...just be careful. Damage can come from any of them. Shoot that gun until the cows come home and unless your shooting a overbore cartridge, like the 26 Nosler or the 30-378 Whby, your rifle will last you. I've got AR's that have eaten up 5,000 rounds and they still shoot good, even with me emptying many 30 round mags in near full auto mode.

And if you do wear out a barrel where your getting 3" groups, go have it rebarreled.----6. Geeze, shoot and enjoy...and stop reading.
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Re: Pull thru bore cable or push thru rod?

#25 Post by marlinman93 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:29 am

Flame erosion can happen, but it's generally with high pressure smokeless loads, and normally takes place just ahead of the chamber. Particular cartridges have always had more issue with flame erosion than others, and those cartridges are almost exclusively modern fast moving cartridges like .220 Swift, .257 Roberts, and a number of other small caliber varmint hunting cartridges. Over the years most who own them know they'll burn out a barrel if they continue to push the limits of those calibers, so simply reducing the charge eliminates the possibility of flame erosion, or reduces it greatly.
Calibers that are slower, and lower pressure have never had flame erosion issues. If you look at numerous old rifles from the 1800's that are well over 125 years old, you almost never see flame erosion. You do see the results of corrosive powder, or primers; and the result of cleaning rods wallowing out the muzzles. If a gun's bore can still look great after 125+ years, but the muzzle shows wear from cleaning rods being misused, I'd say the cleaning rod certainly has much more chance of damaging the barrel than 125 years of shooting will.
I'v seen numerous examples of worn out muzzles, and slugging the bore at the muzzle and measuring it will easily show the enlarged bore at the muzzle. Flame erosion wont create this at the muzzle, as it's almost always in the first few inches ahead of the chamber. So yes, use some common sense, but make sure you've done your homework too.
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