.45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

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5gs
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.45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Hello everyone,

Recently acquired the above rifle in excellent condition, threaded and supplied with a suppressor.

I would like to explore the rifle ballistics of the .45 colt, and develop the following, using as far as possible off the shelf lead and jacketed projectiles.

a) 250 grain @ 950 - 1000 FPS load for 25 yard targets which also works well with the suppressor. Considering red dot - as I have a tub of that at present.

b) A high velocity load perhaps using a similar bullet / jacketed soft / hollow point / hornady FTX bullet.

I am unsure regarding leading of soft bullets at 1000+ FPS or whether using a jacketed bullet in a leaded barrel could cause problems with pressure?

If so, have access to the HN and LOS copper plated lead projectiles, which can be pushed to around 1600 FPS without problems.

This is an exercise in reloading, internal, intermediate, external and terminal ballistics, and dont want to push the '94 action (or my shoulder) to the limit.

Where I am Now------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have 100x 250grain magtech cowboy loads for general 25 yard shooting, they have an advertised muzzle velocity of 761 FPS, which may increase to around 900 - 1000 FPS in a rifle barrel.

Friends have measured the magtech heads at .454 with very soft lead, and getting no accuracy or pressure issues - although I have yet to try them should I look at .454 diameter?

Am concerned that a projectile with a higher hardness in that .002 larger diameter could cause pressure problems and the only reason the loads work is due to softness.

Have yet to try the ammunition but thought I 'd raise the issue of their diameter to see peoples thoughts.

Your help is appreciated!
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GunnyMack
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by GunnyMack »

A couple thousandths big is fine. Usually better accuracy is obtained with the bigger diameter. As long as those bullets chamber you should have no issues. As for load development BUY a couple loading manuals from reputable companies. Sure you can look to the web for data but always refer to manuals for reference as these loads are well tested and more importantly SAFE.
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Welcome to the board !

I used commercial CorBon high-performance JSP loads @ 1100fps quite successfully on deer in my .45 Rossi Model 92.

I would, however, recommend keeping lead boolit loads( w/o gas checks) under 1,000fps to avoid barrel/rifling leading.


.
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by mikld »

I don't believe the "under 1,000 fps" theory as I have many 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum and and some 30-30 loads that go well over 1,000 fps with no leading (plain based, air cooled, wheel weight alloy) and I've read of many people that "shoot out" leading with jacketed bullets. The important thing in shooting any lead bullet is bullet to gun fit. Unless you slug the gun's barrel bullet sizing is sorta a WAG. GunnyMack is right; .004" over grove diameter is fine...

Any question on lead bullet (boolit) shooting, including load recommendations, alloys/BHN, lubes, etc. can be answered by looking here; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/.
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5gs
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Thanks for the responses - I'll use LRN 250 grain for my 1000 FPS loads.

For 1500 FPS plus, I'll look at JHP or perhaps HN /LOS Copper Plated - or would 1500+ be too fast for plated?

Not sure of my groove diameter, however assume that .451, .452, and .454 bullets are ok, but .458 would be too much?
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by GunnyMack »

I was using Berry's plates in my 41 mag Henry- I had fouling problems. Granted they were up at 16-1800 fps. Now only use plates in pistol ammo.
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5gs
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Hi guys,

Many thanks for the help - have another question!

Had good success with a mild load of red dot under a 250 LRNFP bullet in my '94 16" barrelled trapper.

I loaded these to crimp to the cannular at around 1.575 inches or thereabouts.

I have accidentally loaded some to 1.54 ish.

Is this something that could cause pressure issues?
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by Griff »

I have a number of 45 Colt rifles... and load quite a bit of cowboy action ammo... using... RedDot. My usual load is 6.0 grains behind a 200 round flat nose with a WLP primer. I haven't chrono'd this load except to qualify for Wild Bunch matches... and IIRC, it ran at ~825fps. My favorite load is using a 225 grain truncated cone from a RCBS mold 45-225-CAV, which throws a .452 diameter bullet using wheel weights of ~234, all lubed up and ready to go. This load yields an average of 906fps with 6.5 grs of RedDot, from six rifles with bbl lengths from 17" to 24-¼". Surprisingly, the fastest speeds are NOT from the longest barrels. See chart below:
Image
All loads were not from the same batch, nor were they all fired the same day, the 1885 & the 1873 Short Rifle were added several months after the first 4 rifles were chronographed.

You might want to avail yourself of the Los Angeles Silhouette Club's website to study some of their member's knowledge of lead projectile characteristics. I feel 1400 fps is the ceiling for soft lead before leading occurs, but... this is highly dependent on bullet to bore fit and bullet base shape. Bevel base bullets tend to lead @ lower velocities than flat base bullets, as do undersized projectiles. I like to keep my bullets .002" greater than groove diameter. But, with a number of rifles and handguns in 45 Colt, groove diameters do vary, tho none are larger than .451. So, I've never varied from the original sizer I got at .452.

Even with my .30-30s which I'm pushing at 2160fps, the hard cast, gas-checked bullets haven't produced any leading. But... again, over 1400 fps and I feel one needs a much harder alloy than strictly wheel weights and a gas-check.

The only gun I've pushed some faster 45 Colt load thru is my 1892 Rossi Short Rifle. It has a rather heavy octagon bbl for its' length, and that helps reduce felt recoil I loaded up some 255gr SWCs to my reloading manual's listing for Ruger loads, or maybe 45 Colt +P pressures. I didn't have a chronograph at that time, so I can only go by how they felt. I won't say they 'hurt'... but I wouldn't want to do even the 30 rounds I used in the above chart at one sitting! Like the 44 Mag mdl 94 Winchester I had, it thumped at both ends of the gun!

.454 is the historical diameter of the 45 Colt. I don't recall when the change to .452 became standard, but... check your bbl diameter. .454s in a soft lead, even to wheel weights will not affect pressures that greatly in a rifle... their chambers are generous for feeding requirements. I have yet to encounter one with a "tight" chamber... more to the max of SAAMI specs than to the min. Especially on the low end of the performance chart. On the upper end, I'd still not be overly concerned, but I'd work up to max loads very slowly with bullets much more than .002 over groove diameter. And I'd start even lower with harder alloys.

And, as others have said, Image and Welcome to THE Forum!
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by Griff »

5gs wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:33 am Hi guys,

Many thanks for the help - have another question!

Had good success with a mild load of red dot under a 250 LRNFP bullet in my '94 16" barrelled trapper.

I loaded these to crimp to the cannular at around 1.575 inches or thereabouts.

I have accidentally loaded some to 1.54 ish.

Is this something that could cause pressure issues?
No, with an emphasis on "mild load"...
Griff,
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Want to achieve 950 - 1000 FPS to work with my suppressor.

Griff - thanks for the info and velocity charts, interesting to see a 150 FPS increase from 17'' to 18''.

My load is 6.5 grns of red dot, under a 250 grain LRNFP bullet - great minds!

Without a chrono, I started with 6 grns, and having heard no crack, decided to push it to 6.5 grns, and still had no crack - no pressure signs.

As discussed, most of my loads end up with an OAL of 1.57 / 1.58, but due to a seating die error one or two came out at 1.54 inch.

Should I pull these bullets or given the relatively small load will they be ok pressure wise?

I read that red dot could spike pressure wise over small increases so want to be careful!
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by piller »

+1 on buying at least 2 reputable reloading manuals. I don't have a rifle in .45 Colt, but I do have a Ruger pistol in that caliber. Accuracy for me is superb and I have loaded Ruger only loads as well as low end in the safe for old Colt pistols range. All levels have been accurate. If your rifle is accurate in moderate level loads, then keep it moderate. 225 to 250 grain bullets do well on a surprising number of applications. Don't expect to blow through concrete bunkers, but penetration in water jugs is enough from my pistol to give me confidence to carry it in black bear country. I do have some 325 grain lead slugs that I push about 900 fps and they poke through 12 to 14 inches of 2 by 4 stacked together. Faster than that and penetration gets worse. Down to 825 fps and it still penetrates like nobodys business. I like the .45 Colt in a revolver.
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by Griff »

5gs wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:25 pm Want to achieve 950 - 1000 FPS to work with my suppressor.

Griff - thanks for the info and velocity charts, interesting to see a 150 FPS increase from 17'' to 18''.

My load is 6.5 grns of red dot, under a 250 grain LRNFP bullet - great minds!

Without a chrono, I started with 6 grns, and having heard no crack, decided to push it to 6.5 grns, and still had no crack - no pressure signs.

As discussed, most of my loads end up with an OAL of 1.57 / 1.58, but due to a seating die error one or two came out at 1.54 inch.

Should I pull these bullets or given the relatively small load will they be ok pressure wise?

I read that red dot could spike pressure wise over small increases so want to be careful!
Lyman's 50th Reloading Handbook has load data for the 45 Colt in a rifle. Their test platform was a Winchester 94 AE. But, I don't recall the bbl. length.
They list 6.5 grains of RedDot as their maximum... although in a Winchester 94 or 1892 action, I wouldn't hesitate to use a "Ruger" type load. So I think you slightly shorter OAL is fine... but I wouldn't make a habit of it!
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Thanks - saw no pressure signs whatsoever with 6.5 grains, so should be ok.
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by earlmck »

I asked QuickLoad the question about changing seating depth from 1.575 to 1.54 with a 6.5 grain load of Red Dot (these kind of questions are one of my main reasons for owning the ballistic software). QL figures a pressure increase of about 1000 psi, so going from about a 17k psi load to an 18k psi load. Insignificant in a M94 action but somewhat above SAAMI specs for the 45 Colt (14k psi max). So you don't want to be using these in an old Colt revolver or original 1873 Winchester. And QL thinks that load would get you almost 1100 fps from a 16" bbl.

And note that although this is a "mild" load as far as velocity goes it is not a "mild" load pressure wise in that it is well above what the ammo factory would load these to when knowing they could be used in an old black-powder era gun. Now if your ammo factory wanted to achieve that velocity level and keep within SAAMI specs they could do it easily by using a slower powder such as Herco or Power Pistol. Unique would almost make the cut.
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5gs
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by 5gs »

Thoroughly appreciate the calculation.

Given the lack of pressure signs on the decent starline brass, and a modern 1894 action, I don’t think there’s a problem.

Velocity wise, given the shorter OAL cartridge hitting 1100 FPS ish, the standard OAL should be around 1000 ish.
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Re: .45 Colt Winchester 94 AE Trapper

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Pete44ru wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:37 am .

Welcome to the board !

I used commercial CorBon high-performance JSP loads @ 1100fps quite successfully on deer in my .45 Rossi Model 92.

I would, however, recommend keeping lead boolit loads( w/o gas checks) under 1,000fps to avoid barrel/rifling leading.


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