A Horrific Incident

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Pete44ru
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11242
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am

A Horrific Incident

Post by Pete44ru »

.

WARNING: Graphic content ! !

This fella was seriously injured, using his Savage ML II smokeless powder muzzleloading rifle.

Image

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/graphic- ... thPTwaS9x4


While this incident might have been a barrel failure, it also may have been caused by an overload or an improper powder (like a fast-burning pistol powder).


It's a sobering reminder to us all, to know exactly what we're doing when shooting any firearm.


.
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Griff »

Sobering picture that... but then I've always thought those in-inlines would begat stupidity... If it's a barrel failure, I'll feel worse, but if it's stupidity, I won't be the least bit surprised. I always figure folks to the stupidest stuff, and am rarely surprised.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Blaine »

Griff wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:37 pm Sobering picture that... but then I've always thought those in-inlines would begat stupidity... If it's a barrel failure, I'll feel worse, but if it's stupidity, I won't be the least bit surprised. I always figure folks to the stupidest stuff, and am rarely surprised.
+1
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9936
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by GunnyMack »

As my machine shop instructor used to say ' and the angles sing'
That feller is lucky to be alive.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
jnyork
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Wyoming and Arizona

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by jnyork »

I'm betting he loaded it twice.
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Ray »

Lack of handloading understanding and attention to detail is what doomed that so called smokeless muzzleloader......

4198 and Alliant reloader 7 were the go-to powders.....numbnuts and knuckleheads would go to the store and absentmindedly say : " give me some of that seven powder".

If the clerk was a little smarter than the average bear he would ask perceptive questions and perhaps get the guy the right powder.

Otherwise, 777 would work but think of the dangerous alternatives with "7" in the title.

4227 (also sanctioned in the savage)

HS7

AA7
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31931
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by AJMD429 »

I have one, and SR-4795 and AA-5744 were the powders recommended, if I recall correctly. I'd never use any non-recommended ones for sure.

I'm betting either a wrong powder or double-charge.

There was some fuss about the design of the breech-block a few years ago, but it seemed to mostly be due to a disgruntled former employee trying to stir up trouble.

Of course many people just felt it was somehow completely unsafe to use anything but black powder in a muzzleloader, even though most of them admit that 'Pyrodex' and other alternatives are ok - but NOT anything 'smokeless'.

I think the rate of pressure rise and other performance characteristics of the powders Savage recommends are plenty safe, and there have been posts about that on Leverguns, not with this specific gun, but with regards to shooting old 'vintage' leverguns using those powders as an equally-gentle, if not more-gentle option, without the corrosive potential for a gun that maybe has too much history to subject to scrubbing after every session.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Ray »

AJMD429 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:00 pm I have one, and SR-4795 and AA-5744 were the powders recommended, if I recall correctly. I'd never use any non-recommended ones for sure.

I'm betting either a wrong powder or double-charge.

There was some fuss about the design of the breech-block a few years ago, but it seemed to mostly be due to a disgruntled former employee trying to stir up trouble.

Of course many people just felt it was somehow completely unsafe to use anything but black powder in a muzzleloader, even though most of them admit that 'Pyrodex' and other alternatives are ok - but NOT anything 'smokeless'.

I think the rate of pressure rise and other performance characteristics of the powders Savage recommends are plenty safe, and there have been posts about that on Leverguns, not with this specific gun, but with regards to shooting old 'vintage' leverguns using those powders as an equally-gentle, if not more-gentle option, without the corrosive potential for a gun that maybe has too much history to subject to scrubbing after every session.
I won't say his name but his initials are toby bridges and he said that his catastrophic failure was with 4227 which is/was sanctioned by savage.....

think about that for a second.....if you used either the weight or volume meant for 4198 or rel. 7 with 4227 or 5744, that could cause a problem....
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
fordwannabe
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3369
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Womelsdorf PA

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by fordwannabe »

I nshoot 4759 out of mine pretty regularly (though now that it is discontinued not AS regularly) with no issues noted. Ramrod is marked to assure bullet is ALL the way seated and not over charged. I feel comfortable with it.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9936
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by GunnyMack »

4759 was discontinued?! Not used it much but I liked it.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
wm
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1379
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:03 pm

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by wm »

We had a similar incident here at the range last month but the shooter was shooting off a sand bag rest so he had some burns but not much else. He was very fortunate indeed.

The conclusion was he had double charged the rifle. He was texting on one cell phone with work and talking to his wife on his other cell phone while loading.

Just to show I'm able to learn from others misadventures as well as my own, I put a new personal policy in place that cell phone use is 'banned' from the reloading bench as well as the shooting bench. And the car. And the work bench. And the power tools. And the kitchen (by the way baking soda and baking powder are not the same thing …… don't ask me how I know).

Wm.
Pete44ru
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11242
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Pete44ru »

wm wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:59 pm
by the way baking soda and baking powder are not the same thing …… don't ask me how I know.

Yep -

Baking Soda has one ingredient (sodium bicarbonate), which reacts with acids like buttermilk, yogurt or vinegar.

Baking Powder has two ingredients, Baking Soda & a dry acid.




Baking Soda can be substituted for Baking Powder if you increase the amount of acidic ingredients in the recipe to offset the Baking Soda, so the ration is about 1tsp of vinegar or lemon juice for every 1/2 tsp of Baking Soda.


Baking Powder can be used in place of Baking Soda, you just need to triple the amount of Baking Powder over the Backing Soda ( 1tsp of Baking Soda = 3tsp Baking Powder)


Just don't use either with gunpowder...… ;)



.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18563
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Sixgun »

Image






















"
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31931
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by AJMD429 »

As an example of how 'attention to detail' can be a problem - notice I typed "SR-4795", and should have typed "SR-4759" With so many powders just identified by 'number' out there, a bit of dyslexia can be a BIG problem..... :shock:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18563
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Sixgun »

AJMD429 wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:10 pm As an example of how 'attention to detail' can be a problem - notice I typed "SR-4795", and should have typed "SR-4759" With so many powders just identified by 'number' out there, a bit of dyslexia can be a BIG problem..... :shock:
o

I saw that earlier but anyone actually thinking the other number with seriousness does not have any business loading any kind of a gun. But ya know Doc, it's a democratic world out there!---- :D ----6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8660
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Nath »

That's an expensive pipe bomb.

Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.

KISS.

N
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Ray »

Nath wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.

Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.

KISS.

N
a prophet has spoken !
th.jpg
What I recently carried during a particularly wet special muzzleloading week before regular gun season started.

rws tophat on musket size cone & .535" ball and t-shirt/vaseline patch over 28ga. card wad over 3 c.c. pyrodex p.....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
m.A.g.a. !
stretch
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by stretch »

Wow.

Pay attention, folks. I'm guessing a double charge did that.
Smokeless powder is not something to mess with. No distractions
while I'm reloading. Maybe the radio.

Cell phone while reloading?! I continue to be amazed at the idiocy
of people while engaged with the little Electronic Crib Toys. 85 MPH down I-95
while tailgating and making frequent contact with the rumble strip;
through a traffic circle at rush hour - head down and taking up both
lanes, etc..

I'm not sure I'd like a muzzle loader with smokeless. Extends the season, but
it seems as if it would be more finicky about the charge than a BP arm. And
field conditions are not always the best for finicky doings......

-Stretch
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by piller »

I am guessing a cell phone was involved. I hate it when I am trying to give or obtain important information to someone about their prescription and they cannot put the cell phone down long enough to pay the slightest bit of attention to something which is important. A double charge would be easy if someone is not paying attention.

Attention is cheaper to pay than an Emergency Room bill.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
3leggedturtle
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 am
Location: north of Palacios about 1400 miles

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by 3leggedturtle »

What’s amazing is the amount of people who don’t know there is a difference btween pistol, shotgun and rifle powders. Or that even they range from fast to slow of those 3 types! Or that maximum loads aren’t really max,,, but just a recommendation! Rant off. Todd/3leg
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
User avatar
fordwannabe
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3369
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Womelsdorf PA

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by fordwannabe »

As to the comments about true intent of muzzleloader season, in ol Pennsylvania we have an in-line season early fall and a flintlock no percussions after Christmas so we can do both. The state still limits the number of deer but allows multiple seasons so more people can get out in the woods. In Pennsylvania we used to have about a million hunters in the woods each year, the last numbers I heard were about half of that hence extending seasons and allowing different weapons.
I have a Savage ML II use SR-4759 and am comfortable with the gun and the load. I also have a lefty plains rifle that uses BP and I am comfortable with it. Different things for different situations. I have original 1886’s and a 458 socom AR different things but still gun related.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
Gobblerforge
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:02 pm
Location: Eastern Ohio, Foothills of Appalachia
Contact:

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by Gobblerforge »

3leggedturtle wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:52 am What’s amazing is the amount of people who don’t know there is a difference btween pistol, shotgun and rifle powders. Or that even they range from fast to slow of those 3 types! Or that maximum loads aren’t really max,,, but just a recommendation! Rant off. Todd/3leg
Three Leg. Not everyone has had years of experience and or a knowing helper to clarify things. It's hard to know everything about everything the first day.
Gobbler
Click Click Boom
jnyork
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Wyoming and Arizona

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by jnyork »

Nath wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.

Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.

KISS.

N

Well said, Nath, I agree completly but I think we are a distinct minority, I hunt with a flinter but it seems most of the so-called "muzzleloaders" now are something like the Remington Model 700 stainless steel bolt action with a 3x9 Leupold scope, firing jacketed bullets at ranges up to 200 yards. Jim Bridger and Daniel Boone would roll over in their graves. :D
jnyork
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Wyoming and Arizona

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by jnyork »

jnyork wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pm
Nath wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.

Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.

KISS.

N

Well said, Nath, I agree completly but I think we are a distinct minority, I hunt with a flinter but it seems most of the so-called "muzzleloaders" now are something like the Remington Model 700 stainless steel bolt action with plastic stock, a 3x9 Leupold scope, firing jacketed bullets at ranges up to 200 yards. Jim Bridger and Daniel Boone would roll over in their graves. :D
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31931
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by AJMD429 »

I think the modern in-line muzzleloaders were primarily built to 'work around' the common hunting-season regulations, which is not really in the spirit of 'sporting' hunting.

However, I ALSO think that there is no reason that the invention of smokeless powder and brass cartridges should mean that blackpowder guns have to remain in the 19th-century technologically. If someone comes out with a muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder (or some newer yet-to-be-invented propellant) and it uses range finding laser sights that work in total darkness, fires depleted uranium heat-seeking projectiles, and fires 500 rounds per minute using some new mechanism, I will probably want one... :lol:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: A Horrific Incident

Post by piller »

There are some differing Ideas about muzzleloaders, but we all have to remember that we cannot let the anti-gun crowd have a spot to get a wedge in to take anything more away from us. I have a more modern inline front stuffer which uses percession caps. I have nothing against the ones which use shotgun style primers, nor do I have a problem with flintlocks. They each have a use, and we need to present a united front against the anti-gun crowd like Nancy Pelosi or Sebastian Coe.

Soap Box mode off.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Post Reply