A Horrific Incident
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A Horrific Incident
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WARNING: Graphic content ! !
This fella was seriously injured, using his Savage ML II smokeless powder muzzleloading rifle.
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/graphic- ... thPTwaS9x4
While this incident might have been a barrel failure, it also may have been caused by an overload or an improper powder (like a fast-burning pistol powder).
It's a sobering reminder to us all, to know exactly what we're doing when shooting any firearm.
.
WARNING: Graphic content ! !
This fella was seriously injured, using his Savage ML II smokeless powder muzzleloading rifle.
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/graphic- ... thPTwaS9x4
While this incident might have been a barrel failure, it also may have been caused by an overload or an improper powder (like a fast-burning pistol powder).
It's a sobering reminder to us all, to know exactly what we're doing when shooting any firearm.
.
- Griff
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Re: A Horrific Incident
Sobering picture that... but then I've always thought those in-inlines would begat stupidity... If it's a barrel failure, I'll feel worse, but if it's stupidity, I won't be the least bit surprised. I always figure folks to the stupidest stuff, and am rarely surprised.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: A Horrific Incident
+1Griff wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:37 pm Sobering picture that... but then I've always thought those in-inlines would begat stupidity... If it's a barrel failure, I'll feel worse, but if it's stupidity, I won't be the least bit surprised. I always figure folks to the stupidest stuff, and am rarely surprised.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
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Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
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- GunnyMack
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Re: A Horrific Incident
As my machine shop instructor used to say ' and the angles sing'
That feller is lucky to be alive.
That feller is lucky to be alive.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
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Re: A Horrific Incident
I'm betting he loaded it twice.
Re: A Horrific Incident
Lack of handloading understanding and attention to detail is what doomed that so called smokeless muzzleloader......
4198 and Alliant reloader 7 were the go-to powders.....numbnuts and knuckleheads would go to the store and absentmindedly say : " give me some of that seven powder".
If the clerk was a little smarter than the average bear he would ask perceptive questions and perhaps get the guy the right powder.
Otherwise, 777 would work but think of the dangerous alternatives with "7" in the title.
4227 (also sanctioned in the savage)
HS7
AA7
4198 and Alliant reloader 7 were the go-to powders.....numbnuts and knuckleheads would go to the store and absentmindedly say : " give me some of that seven powder".
If the clerk was a little smarter than the average bear he would ask perceptive questions and perhaps get the guy the right powder.
Otherwise, 777 would work but think of the dangerous alternatives with "7" in the title.
4227 (also sanctioned in the savage)
HS7
AA7
m.A.g.a. !
- AJMD429
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Re: A Horrific Incident
I have one, and SR-4795 and AA-5744 were the powders recommended, if I recall correctly. I'd never use any non-recommended ones for sure.
I'm betting either a wrong powder or double-charge.
There was some fuss about the design of the breech-block a few years ago, but it seemed to mostly be due to a disgruntled former employee trying to stir up trouble.
Of course many people just felt it was somehow completely unsafe to use anything but black powder in a muzzleloader, even though most of them admit that 'Pyrodex' and other alternatives are ok - but NOT anything 'smokeless'.
I think the rate of pressure rise and other performance characteristics of the powders Savage recommends are plenty safe, and there have been posts about that on Leverguns, not with this specific gun, but with regards to shooting old 'vintage' leverguns using those powders as an equally-gentle, if not more-gentle option, without the corrosive potential for a gun that maybe has too much history to subject to scrubbing after every session.
I'm betting either a wrong powder or double-charge.
There was some fuss about the design of the breech-block a few years ago, but it seemed to mostly be due to a disgruntled former employee trying to stir up trouble.
Of course many people just felt it was somehow completely unsafe to use anything but black powder in a muzzleloader, even though most of them admit that 'Pyrodex' and other alternatives are ok - but NOT anything 'smokeless'.
I think the rate of pressure rise and other performance characteristics of the powders Savage recommends are plenty safe, and there have been posts about that on Leverguns, not with this specific gun, but with regards to shooting old 'vintage' leverguns using those powders as an equally-gentle, if not more-gentle option, without the corrosive potential for a gun that maybe has too much history to subject to scrubbing after every session.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: A Horrific Incident
I won't say his name but his initials are toby bridges and he said that his catastrophic failure was with 4227 which is/was sanctioned by savage.....AJMD429 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:00 pm I have one, and SR-4795 and AA-5744 were the powders recommended, if I recall correctly. I'd never use any non-recommended ones for sure.
I'm betting either a wrong powder or double-charge.
There was some fuss about the design of the breech-block a few years ago, but it seemed to mostly be due to a disgruntled former employee trying to stir up trouble.
Of course many people just felt it was somehow completely unsafe to use anything but black powder in a muzzleloader, even though most of them admit that 'Pyrodex' and other alternatives are ok - but NOT anything 'smokeless'.
I think the rate of pressure rise and other performance characteristics of the powders Savage recommends are plenty safe, and there have been posts about that on Leverguns, not with this specific gun, but with regards to shooting old 'vintage' leverguns using those powders as an equally-gentle, if not more-gentle option, without the corrosive potential for a gun that maybe has too much history to subject to scrubbing after every session.
think about that for a second.....if you used either the weight or volume meant for 4198 or rel. 7 with 4227 or 5744, that could cause a problem....
m.A.g.a. !
- fordwannabe
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Re: A Horrific Incident
I nshoot 4759 out of mine pretty regularly (though now that it is discontinued not AS regularly) with no issues noted. Ramrod is marked to assure bullet is ALL the way seated and not over charged. I feel comfortable with it.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
- GunnyMack
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Re: A Horrific Incident
4759 was discontinued?! Not used it much but I liked it.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Re: A Horrific Incident
We had a similar incident here at the range last month but the shooter was shooting off a sand bag rest so he had some burns but not much else. He was very fortunate indeed.
The conclusion was he had double charged the rifle. He was texting on one cell phone with work and talking to his wife on his other cell phone while loading.
Just to show I'm able to learn from others misadventures as well as my own, I put a new personal policy in place that cell phone use is 'banned' from the reloading bench as well as the shooting bench. And the car. And the work bench. And the power tools. And the kitchen (by the way baking soda and baking powder are not the same thing …… don't ask me how I know).
Wm.
The conclusion was he had double charged the rifle. He was texting on one cell phone with work and talking to his wife on his other cell phone while loading.
Just to show I'm able to learn from others misadventures as well as my own, I put a new personal policy in place that cell phone use is 'banned' from the reloading bench as well as the shooting bench. And the car. And the work bench. And the power tools. And the kitchen (by the way baking soda and baking powder are not the same thing …… don't ask me how I know).
Wm.
Re: A Horrific Incident
Yep -
Baking Soda has one ingredient (sodium bicarbonate), which reacts with acids like buttermilk, yogurt or vinegar.
Baking Powder has two ingredients, Baking Soda & a dry acid.
Baking Soda can be substituted for Baking Powder if you increase the amount of acidic ingredients in the recipe to offset the Baking Soda, so the ration is about 1tsp of vinegar or lemon juice for every 1/2 tsp of Baking Soda.
Baking Powder can be used in place of Baking Soda, you just need to triple the amount of Baking Powder over the Backing Soda ( 1tsp of Baking Soda = 3tsp Baking Powder)
Just don't use either with gunpowder...…
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- AJMD429
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Re: A Horrific Incident
As an example of how 'attention to detail' can be a problem - notice I typed "SR-4795", and should have typed "SR-4759" With so many powders just identified by 'number' out there, a bit of dyslexia can be a BIG problem.....
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- Sixgun
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Re: A Horrific Incident
o
I saw that earlier but anyone actually thinking the other number with seriousness does not have any business loading any kind of a gun. But ya know Doc, it's a democratic world out there!---- ----6
Re: A Horrific Incident
That's an expensive pipe bomb.
Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.
KISS.
N
Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.
KISS.
N
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
Re: A Horrific Incident
a prophet has spoken !Nath wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.
Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.
KISS.
N
What I recently carried during a particularly wet special muzzleloading week before regular gun season started.
rws tophat on musket size cone & .535" ball and t-shirt/vaseline patch over 28ga. card wad over 3 c.c. pyrodex p.....
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m.A.g.a. !
Re: A Horrific Incident
Wow.
Pay attention, folks. I'm guessing a double charge did that.
Smokeless powder is not something to mess with. No distractions
while I'm reloading. Maybe the radio.
Cell phone while reloading?! I continue to be amazed at the idiocy
of people while engaged with the little Electronic Crib Toys. 85 MPH down I-95
while tailgating and making frequent contact with the rumble strip;
through a traffic circle at rush hour - head down and taking up both
lanes, etc..
I'm not sure I'd like a muzzle loader with smokeless. Extends the season, but
it seems as if it would be more finicky about the charge than a BP arm. And
field conditions are not always the best for finicky doings......
-Stretch
Pay attention, folks. I'm guessing a double charge did that.
Smokeless powder is not something to mess with. No distractions
while I'm reloading. Maybe the radio.
Cell phone while reloading?! I continue to be amazed at the idiocy
of people while engaged with the little Electronic Crib Toys. 85 MPH down I-95
while tailgating and making frequent contact with the rumble strip;
through a traffic circle at rush hour - head down and taking up both
lanes, etc..
I'm not sure I'd like a muzzle loader with smokeless. Extends the season, but
it seems as if it would be more finicky about the charge than a BP arm. And
field conditions are not always the best for finicky doings......
-Stretch
Re: A Horrific Incident
I am guessing a cell phone was involved. I hate it when I am trying to give or obtain important information to someone about their prescription and they cannot put the cell phone down long enough to pay the slightest bit of attention to something which is important. A double charge would be easy if someone is not paying attention.
Attention is cheaper to pay than an Emergency Room bill.
Attention is cheaper to pay than an Emergency Room bill.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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Re: A Horrific Incident
What’s amazing is the amount of people who don’t know there is a difference btween pistol, shotgun and rifle powders. Or that even they range from fast to slow of those 3 types! Or that maximum loads aren’t really max,,, but just a recommendation! Rant off. Todd/3leg
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
- fordwannabe
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Re: A Horrific Incident
As to the comments about true intent of muzzleloader season, in ol Pennsylvania we have an in-line season early fall and a flintlock no percussions after Christmas so we can do both. The state still limits the number of deer but allows multiple seasons so more people can get out in the woods. In Pennsylvania we used to have about a million hunters in the woods each year, the last numbers I heard were about half of that hence extending seasons and allowing different weapons.
I have a Savage ML II use SR-4759 and am comfortable with the gun and the load. I also have a lefty plains rifle that uses BP and I am comfortable with it. Different things for different situations. I have original 1886’s and a 458 socom AR different things but still gun related.
I have a Savage ML II use SR-4759 and am comfortable with the gun and the load. I also have a lefty plains rifle that uses BP and I am comfortable with it. Different things for different situations. I have original 1886’s and a 458 socom AR different things but still gun related.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
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Re: A Horrific Incident
Three Leg. Not everyone has had years of experience and or a knowing helper to clarify things. It's hard to know everything about everything the first day.3leggedturtle wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:52 am What’s amazing is the amount of people who don’t know there is a difference btween pistol, shotgun and rifle powders. Or that even they range from fast to slow of those 3 types! Or that maximum loads aren’t really max,,, but just a recommendation! Rant off. Todd/3leg
Gobbler
Click Click Boom
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Re: A Horrific Incident
Nath wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.
Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.
KISS.
N
Well said, Nath, I agree completly but I think we are a distinct minority, I hunt with a flinter but it seems most of the so-called "muzzleloaders" now are something like the Remington Model 700 stainless steel bolt action with a 3x9 Leupold scope, firing jacketed bullets at ranges up to 200 yards. Jim Bridger and Daniel Boone would roll over in their graves.
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Re: A Horrific Incident
jnyork wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pmNath wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:40 am That's an expensive pipe bomb.
Without wishing harm or wanting to sound self righteous.
If the person who owned said such piece kept it simple and used the muzzleloader season as per the original spirit for the muzzleloader season they would of only had to use one powder type and only be concerned about a cavity or plugging the muzzle.
KISS.
N
Well said, Nath, I agree completly but I think we are a distinct minority, I hunt with a flinter but it seems most of the so-called "muzzleloaders" now are something like the Remington Model 700 stainless steel bolt action with plastic stock, a 3x9 Leupold scope, firing jacketed bullets at ranges up to 200 yards. Jim Bridger and Daniel Boone would roll over in their graves.
- AJMD429
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Re: A Horrific Incident
I think the modern in-line muzzleloaders were primarily built to 'work around' the common hunting-season regulations, which is not really in the spirit of 'sporting' hunting.
However, I ALSO think that there is no reason that the invention of smokeless powder and brass cartridges should mean that blackpowder guns have to remain in the 19th-century technologically. If someone comes out with a muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder (or some newer yet-to-be-invented propellant) and it uses range finding laser sights that work in total darkness, fires depleted uranium heat-seeking projectiles, and fires 500 rounds per minute using some new mechanism, I will probably want one...
However, I ALSO think that there is no reason that the invention of smokeless powder and brass cartridges should mean that blackpowder guns have to remain in the 19th-century technologically. If someone comes out with a muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder (or some newer yet-to-be-invented propellant) and it uses range finding laser sights that work in total darkness, fires depleted uranium heat-seeking projectiles, and fires 500 rounds per minute using some new mechanism, I will probably want one...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: A Horrific Incident
There are some differing Ideas about muzzleloaders, but we all have to remember that we cannot let the anti-gun crowd have a spot to get a wedge in to take anything more away from us. I have a more modern inline front stuffer which uses percession caps. I have nothing against the ones which use shotgun style primers, nor do I have a problem with flintlocks. They each have a use, and we need to present a united front against the anti-gun crowd like Nancy Pelosi or Sebastian Coe.
Soap Box mode off.
Soap Box mode off.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost