.38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

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Scrondar
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.38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

Hey all-
DId a search, but I couldn't find an answer, so...

I am about to acquire a much coveted Rossi '92 in .357/.38. Typically, I don't shoot .38 Special out of my revolver, but I'd like to use the brass I have in this rifle. Any concerns about doing so? What powder/bullet combination do you who load this caliber use? I usually have BE, Titegroup, Trail Boss, and W231 on hand, and 158 gr. SWC for my handgun. TIA!
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Old Savage »

38 Spl. works fine in my Rossi 92 357. Loads can be individual per rifle. I would say start with your best handgun load.
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mickbr
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by mickbr »

Mine feeds some factory 38sp okay, What I learned from other sources is it can be hit and miss , some 92's hang up depending on the loaded length of the 38sp. So you find what 38 ammo or length your gun likes and just use that. Also 38 special can ring the chamber as its a shorter case. I don't shoot enough of it to know whether it can be a concern, the more knowledgeable here will know.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by gundownunder »

My brother just shot a gold medal in his grade at the lever action rifle national championships in Albany, Western Australia, using 38spl in his Rossi.
I assembled the loads using Accurates 36-125-O which is a TC profile, and 5.4gr of ADIs AP70N powder, which is about equal to Unique.
The load is actually listed by ADI as a +p load. The only issue is that the TC profile doesn't like fast cycling and will want to pop the next live round out with the spent case if he cycles too quick. Even in rapid fire, which is 5 shots in 15 seconds he can do it, if he does it right. I've just started casting a 158gr rnfp for him and I think that will ramp things up to a whole new level. The only issue with using 38spl in a 357 chamber is you need to clean the chamber afterwards if you want to fit 357 cases in there as a crud ring builds up in front of the 38 case.
Your milage may vary, and the SWC design may be the spanner in the works, but try it and see.

I'll give you a head start with your list of ingredients, Lees second edition lists Win 231 at 4.5 - 4.7 grains behind a 158 gr lead bullet as a +p load.

Now this is mathematics and by no means a recommendation, but a 357 load of W231 is 6.2 - 6.7 gr and a 38 case is 10% smaller than a 357 case so it could possibly be safe to slowly work up to 5.6 - 6.0 grs in a 357 magnum rifle using 38 cases. Also you could research Elmer Keith's 38/44 load.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by AJMD429 »

My little 38 Special 16" Rossi has become a favorite, and feeds 357 Mag and various profile 38 Special loads reliably.

I haven't had a 'crud ring' that I can feel, but would be interested in a peek with a bore-scope at the front of the chamber. Even if it develops I don't see any reason it wouldn't brush out with a brass brush.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

Thanks to all who replied; yeah, the "crud ring" symptom is why I don't shoot .38 spl in my revolver. Not that I am adverse to cleaning the cylinder (I do anyway), but I didn't know if this was an issue with lever guns as well. I may just stick with .357, as I have several recipes for it that work nicely, especially with Trail Boss. This is all for paper punching at the range. It's been a long time since I've shot off-hand, so I am looking forward to having some real fun with this rifle.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by JerryB »

I have had a Rossi .357 for about 10 years and have shot a lot of.38 spl out of it with no problems. Several years ago my grandson wanted to do some cowboy shooting. He has an older Marlin .357 and a pair of the New Vaquero .357's. I loaded a lot of .38's for along time and I don't think either one of us had any gun problems with the ammo. I loaded a 158 grain cast LFRN bullet with 5 grains of Unique. Just try a few rounds of different cast bullets. WELCOME TO A GREAT FORUM!!!
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by gundownunder »

I used Trailboss for a couple of years in mine and found velocity was just too slow for my liking.
Don't let the " crud ring " throw you off trying the 38s. It isn't a serious issue that can't be solved. I had a member at our local club come to me one day and tell me he couldn't chamber 357s after he'd shot a couple of hundred 38s in his S&W, so I used an empty 357 case and forced it into his chambers with my thumb, that cut out the crud ring and he was good to go. My brother runs a bore snake through his rifle after every range session and he can shoot the two rounds interchangeably any time he likes. If my rifle liked 38s I would use them for my lite loads and keep the 357s for heavy work but mine has always shown a preference for heavy bullets in 357 cases so thats what I use.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

gundownunder wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:14 pm I used Trailboss for a couple of years in mine and found velocity was just too slow for my liking.
Don't let the " crud ring " throw you off trying the 38s. It isn't a serious issue that can't be solved. I had a member at our local club come to me one day and tell me he couldn't chamber 357s after he'd shot a couple of hundred 38s in his S&W, so I used an empty 357 case and forced it into his chambers with my thumb, that cut out the crud ring and he was good to go. My brother runs a bore snake through his rifle after every range session and he can shoot the two rounds interchangeably any time he likes. If my rifle liked 38s I would use them for my lite loads and keep the 357s for heavy work but mine has always shown a preference for heavy bullets in 357 cases so thats what I use.
I hear ya. I really like TB as a powder-puff propellant, and Titegroup or W321 for a little more oomph. And yeah, I clean my guns, inside and out, after each session whether they need it. Good idea, the .357 case to clear any buildup. I'm shooting coated bullets now, and from what I've read, RNFP seems to be the bullet of choice for lever action. Once it gets sprung from jail (one more week!), this rifle is going to get a lot of work. My 10/22 is sitting in the safe whining, "Where's the love?" 8)

Time to head down to the bench and make ammo....

Oh, and I like your sig. Especially relevant these days.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by gundownunder »

Hey Scrondar
RNFP is the bullet that most lever guns do best with, but don't let that stop you from trying the swc if that's what you have on hand. If your rifle feeds them smoothly and shoots them accurately then they make a really good paper puncher, and a very good hunting bullet too if you are so inclined.
Many rifles hicup on that profile but some have no issue with it, mine had no issues ten years ago when I was buying commercial cast bullets and the manufacturer over here only had 158s in swc design, unfortunately accuracy was an issue with mine as it is not fond of that weight. These days I cast all my own, in 125gr and 158gr for my brothers Rossi, and 180gr for my Marlin, and they are all rnfp as we are rifle shooter first and foremost and back when I owned a sixgun it was only ever for fun.
The Sig came about because for years I've heard that we live in a democracy, and I've always called it BS, we live in a democratically elected dictatorship. The only country I know of with a true democracy is Switzerland.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

Well, as it happens I have a bunch of 158 gr. moly RNFP left over when I switched to SWC for my revolver, so no worries there. I would, however, like to know what OAL you who load .38 spl with lead bullets use. I have 1.475" (Hodgdon's data) with 3.5gr of TB, but I have no idea if that is proper for this rifle or not. I wonder, is this rifle picky about the OAL for a given caliber? I will be shooting both .357 and .38 out of it, and until I get some range time with it to see how it performs, I want to be as sure as I can I have ammo that is safe and will work. Thanks for any info you all can share.

And not to get off on a political tangent, but yeah, in our system the executive wields a good deal of power, especially being CinC. The other branches have to keep an eye in whoever is in that office. There is a reason it's so hard to gain citizenship in Switzerland.... :wink:
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.
What that means is they may not work well with really long 357’s. (They tend to hit the top inside of the chamber before they make the turn into the chamber) or really short 38’s.
The most common problem with the shorter 38's is if run fast the gun will throw out, flip or stovepipe live rounds with the empty's. This is because the shorter 38 coming on to the carrier from the tube can bounce forward enough that the rim is too close to the rim slots in the guides and when you lever it fast the carrier just catapults them up or out with the empty.

If you are handloading lead bullets just set them out to 1.5". That's what the CAS folks do.

For years there were commercial reloaders that offered CAS ammo, offered 1 1/5" long loaded Cowboy leveraction 38's.
I directed my rifle customer to "T" ammo for his 1.5" cowboy 38's. But, Roy retired so I was recommending Ammo Direct.
Well, they are out of business at least temporarily. (had a fire I believe)
Here is the new source.

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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

Excellent info, many thanks. I will see how the 1.475" .38 rounds do (though I wished I'd seen your post before I made them up). Question: with a 158 gr. lead bullet, most sources call for 1.590" (with several propellants) for a .357 mag. Everywhere I go on the interwebs, I read that lever guns are particular about cartridge length. Then there's this from a post on a SASS cowboy forum in response to someone with a Rossi 92: "You have a 1892 replica. This is the rifle I started with 10 years ago. After much grief, I found that my 1892 rifle preferred a .357 case with a truncated cone 125 gr. bullet loaded to an OAL of 1.52 - 1.54." So, I guess the thing to do is make up rounds of lengths from say, 1.50" to, say, 1.55" and see if any fail to load or eject cleanly? I'm not married to .38 spl as a round of choice; just wanted to see if I could use my brass. Lots to learn here....
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Scrondar wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:50 pm Excellent info, many thanks. I will see how the 1.475" .38 rounds do (though I wished I'd seen your post before I made them up). Question: with a 158 gr. lead bullet, most sources call for 1.590" (with several propellants) for a .357 mag. Everywhere I go on the interwebs, I read that lever guns are particular about cartridge length. Then there's this from a post on a SASS cowboy forum in response to someone with a Rossi 92: "You have a 1892 replica. This is the rifle I started with 10 years ago. After much grief, I found that my 1892 rifle preferred a .357 case with a truncated cone 125 gr. bullet loaded to an OAL of 1.52 - 1.54." So, I guess the thing to do is make up rounds of lengths from say, 1.50" to, say, 1.55" and see if any fail to load or eject cleanly? I'm not married to .38 spl as a round of choice; just wanted to see if I could use my brass. Lots to learn here....

All leveraction, pump action and semi-auto guns (long guns or handguns) are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive. Some more than other. For example, you don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. like 3006, 308 or 223 and even 30-30. Those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.
The thing to keep in mind is these modern straight wall pistol caliber ammo leverguns (all, not just the 92’s) are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

The thing to keep in mind is these modern straight wall pistol caliber ammo leverguns (all, not just the 92’s) are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with.
Yep. My Springfield XD45 hums right along IF I feed it the right bullet at the right length; otherwise it gets a bit persnickety. I will post back here once I've had the rifle at the range. I don't mind having to figure out what it likes best in a cartridge, just so long as it CAN be figured out. :D
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by earlmck »

My main bullet in my Rossi is a long-nosed 185 grainer which doesn't feed if I load it in a 357 case. So I have been happily loading it in 38 cases (at moderate 357-level pressures) for the past several years. Then within the last couple of months I have experienced two case separations in my rifle and a friend had one in his Winchester. I asked the question on this forum of "what the heck?" and found that other folks have experienced the same thing on occasion. The common denominator among the rifle shooters seemed to be the use of nickle-plated cases.

The garbage truck just went by here a few minutes ago and there went about a coffee-can worth of nickle-plated 38 cases from my shop. I hope that was the true answer.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

earlmck wrote: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 am My main bullet in my Rossi is a long-nosed 185 grainer which doesn't feed if I load it in a 357 case. So I have been happily loading it in 38 cases (at moderate 357-level pressures) for the past several years.
This was on my mind as well. That extra 1/10" seems like (depending on the bullet and OAL) could make a difference. Picked up the rifle yesterday, only to find out that the range is closed this weekend (grrrrrr :evil: ), so I have time to make up some more ammo at 1.50". Think I'll make up a few dummy rounds, just to see if they cycle. Once I have this beauty at the range and given it a good workout, I'll report back here.

Couple of other questions: Hodgdon's site lists 1.610-1.620" as the COL for all its propellants for .357mag with a 158gr. lead bullet, but no minimum OAL. At 1.50", are there any pressure concerns with that bullet seated at that depth? Is one powder "better" (safer) than another in this rifle at 1.50"? Also, I am reading that a TC bullet will feed well in the Rossi 92 in .357mag. Anyone use this bullet in their rifles? When I picked up the rifle, the store owner made a point of opening a box of factory ammo (don't know the brand) made with a TC bullet and claimed: "THIS is the ammo these rifles like best." Dunno if he was speaking from experience or if this was second-hand info, and he may have been trying to sell me a box or two. The only factory ammo I buy is .22LR, so I didn't bite, but I do wonder.

It's quite possible I am overthinking this :D . I've rounded up enough info here and there to try a few combos. Down to the bench....
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

Well, test results are....inconclusive. .38spl at 1.475" cycled smootly; .357mag at 1.50", 1.55" and 1.60" all ran just fine. Mind you, none of these were run fast (nor will be, as I am not a Cowboy shooter) nor fired, but with normal cycling, they all came up, fed, and left like they belonged there. What I did notice (as queried in my previous post) is that at 1.50", a 158gr. bullet looks deeply seated. If I can get 1.60" to work without trouble, I might just use that OAL for piece of mind. I will be using Trail Boss for the most part, which produces a pretty mild load with less pressure.

Sooo...? Either I have a rifle that will eat what I give it, within reason, or I am missing something. At any rate, next stop is the range and then using Steve's video to smooth out that action. It's a bit clunky as is, and I have been forever spoiled by my Henry .22LR Octagon Frontier; like butter.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by gundownunder »

What I did notice (as queried in my previous post) is that at 1.50", a 158gr. bullet looks deeply seated.
Does the bullet have a crimp groove in it? If so, seat to the crimp groove, that's what it's there for. The crimp is essential in a tube fed rifle to stop the bullets either backing out of the case or pushing into the case under recoil.
If you're using Trailboss the 1.50 OAL won't hurt anything, load from 70% case capacity up to the base of the bullet, and work up to 100% case capacity depending on accuracy. Some of the less forgiving powders you will have to start at the listed starting load and work up, or if there is only one load listed, reduce that by 10% and then work up.
After much grief, I found that my 1892 rifle preferred a .357 case with a truncated cone 125 gr. bullet loaded to an OAL of 1.52 - 1.54.
This is what I mean about every rifle being an individual, that 125gr TC bullet in a 38 case worked for my brother's Rossi but wouldn't make the turn into the chamber when it was loaded into 357 cases.
Experiment with your OAL till you get what your rifle likes.
As an example, my Marlin likes heavy bullets, so I've got a mold for a 180gr rnfp, Accurate's 36-175-B, but that bullet has a rather full nose profile so I needed to shorten the OAL to 1590 to get a smooth feed happening. The bullet has a crimp groove which is .315 down from the nose. My cases needed to be trimmed to fit that bullet (1.590 - .315 = 1.275), most Winchester nickel cases measure about 1.280 - 1.290. Now I can cycle that load through my rifle like greased lightning and it will work at distances from 25 - 100 yds with low velocity loads or 100 - 200 yds with high velocity loads. I know people at my local club who have run that bullet through their Winchester 92s at a OAL of 1.600 with no problems whatsoever.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by retmech »

I shoot a lot of .38's in my Rossi's and my bullet of choice is the Lee 125 RF. I load that over 4.2 Bullseye or 4.9 /231 which gives approx 1200fps. In mag cases I use 4.5 Bullseye or 5.3/231. The Lee 120TC (9MM bullet)also works well and is as accurate as the RNFP.
A quick and easy way to clean a .38 crud ring is to chamber a sized and belled .357 case in and out a couple of times.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by Scrondar »

More good info, thanks. Does anyone know if a 158gr. coated TC bullet is available? I can't find one, and while RN is plentiful, I'm liking the "feedability" and accuracy of the TC more and more. The usual sources of coated bullets only seem to carry RN/RNFP in 158gr. TIA.
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Re: .38 Special in a Rossi Model 92?

Post by earlmck »

Scrondar wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:17 pm
Couple of other questions: Hodgdon's site lists 1.610-1.620" as the COL for all its propellants for .357mag with a 158gr. lead bullet, but no minimum OAL. At 1.50", are there any pressure concerns with that bullet seated at that depth? Is one powder "better" (safer) than another in this rifle at 1.50"?
You are quite right to consider the pressure rise if using the same powder charge loaded to the short vs the longer length. I put the question the my frequently consulted QuickLoad software, and here are a couple of examples of its answers:
a) with TrailBoss, 5 grains and a 158 grain Hornady XTP would be almost touching the bullet base in a 1.61" cartridge, would give 16k psi. The same 5 grains would be slightly compressed in a 1.5" cartridge and give 19k psi. So no big deal.

b) But with Alliant 2400 13 grains gives a well-filled case, upper end load at 1.61", 31k psi. (SAAMI spec at 35k psi max). But put it in a 38 case and 1.5" length and you get 44k psi. This likely won't bother the strong Rossi action but is well above SAAMI max load for the cartridge.

I don't take QuickLoad as gospel but for exploring the "what ifs" like this one about a little COAL reduction in a short straight case I think it gives a very good indication.
So a little bit shorter length can make a big pressure difference, and really gets serious with upper level loads.
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