The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

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AJMD429
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The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by AJMD429 »

My 'only one gun' would either be a 20mm Gatling on a helicopter (in which case I could TAKE any other gun I wanted), or a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt/ACP, since it could serve for CCW, social unrest, and hunting, including the potential for 45 caliber sabots and almost any powder/primer/projectile.

But next would be a shoulder-fired weapon, and comparable ammo would be nice, so 45 ACP or 45 Colt would be nice.

A MechTech 1911 rig might be nice, but a Marlin 1894 has few parts, coarse/robust parts, and decent firepower, plus is low-profile versus an EBR if things are getting testy as far as government-vs-civilian gun ownership.

So the Marlin 1894in 45 Colt is a great gun (with the 44 Mag version not far behind, the only 'negative' being the 44 Mag Redhawk lacks the moon-clip use of 45 ACP, which is a nice cartridge to be able to use).

I saw one at the local funstore today. New production, retail tag $650 or so, and looked well-made on casual inspection.

Cool....!

Is have bought it if I has the cash.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by GunnyMack »

I've always felt that my Benelli M1Super90 would be my '1gun'. I have a 20" iron sight barrel, a saddle mount for scope, rifled choke tube AND a 28" choke tubed barrel. Can handle just about anything on 2 or 4 paws. However range is somewhat lacking but as for survival it's hard to beat a shotgun.
As for my 1 in a rifle it would have to be an AR. let's face it, they are everywhere now so if you would need a part it could be easy to find, mags as well as Ammo.
Pistol caliber, gotta go to my Ruger carbine and my 629 to keep ammo the same.
On their other hand a 22 is always an option. Quiet, handy, powerful enough and you can carry A LOT of ammo!
Just my 2cents...
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by jeepnik »

Smith .22 lr revolver.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by 2ndovc »

If I could only have one caliber it would be my Sig MPX and my Glock 19. Both are stupid reliable and the MPX is wicked accurate.

If two calibers are allowed for this experiment I would go with my Colt National Match along with my Colt AR-15A4. It has become my favorite AR and like the MPX crazy accurate, especially with the new trigger I put in it. I think If I lived out west I would substitute my M1A Scout rifle for longer ranges and bigger critters.

As much as I would love to have something blue and walnut. I'm thinking I'd be very comfortable with some Evil Black Plastic. :D

jb 8)
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by 3leggedturtle »

Urban survival, AR type in 223.
General woods living, 30/30...... Todd/3leg
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by AJMD429 »

Bad title to my post; I mostly was just posting that the 45 Colt 1894's must be being produced again... :D
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

I really like AR's but the .223 is unnecessarily powerful for most work.....maybe one in 9mm would suffice but AR's do have maintenance issues. NOTHING is as reliable as an Uzi so that's my choice. Of course, a Model A , made in Israel. Hardly any parts in them and the manual says to clean under the extractor every 5,000 rounds. Beer can accurate at 100 and head accurate at 200. Anything further away than that is not a threat. Good enough for small game or big game. I've got three of them and the first one works so well, the other two are still NIB.....from the early eighties.

The 9mm would even handle these big insects a buddy just dropped off. Was in Maine bear hunting.

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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by 2ndovc »

And here we were thinking it was another one of those "What If" scenarios. :D


jb 8)
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by HawkCreek »

If a situation came up while I was at home and I was sudden limited to one gun I figured out years ago id die in front of the safe trying to decide which gun to pick.

I live in the desert, the pheasant population has been decimated since what was wrong when I was a small boy. Shotguns are little interest to me and out here I dont think they offer any benefits at all.

There is pretty much always a .30 caliber rifle in my truck and more often than not several .30 caliber rifles. So most likely whenever I end up limited to one rifle it will be a .30-30, .308 or .30-06 lever or bolt gun.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Griff »

You either have the world's largest dog & cat... or those are the world's smallest crawdads! :P :twisted:

There ain't any such thing as a "one-gun only" scenario...

But, as a companion piece, the 45 Colt 1894 Marlin is a good choice:
Image
This one with a shortened 17" bbl. is just about the epitome of handy! Especially with a full load of Adirondak Jack's C45S loads. (45ACP with 45 Colt rim)... Yep, 11 of 'em fit in there!
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Old Savage »

.357 Marlin or Rossi.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by JerryB »

Once again I have to agree with Old Savage, grandson has an old 1894.357 and I have the Rossi .357.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Tanqueray »

I’d have to say an 1894 carbine in 38-55. Short and handy, but with the power to bring anything down without excessive recoil.
And classy 8)
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Rusty »

Skeeter did an excellent article about this years ago and he settled on a 5" M27 S&W as his bug out gun. He gave a multitude of reasons. I liked the article so much I sought out an annual that has published it as well. The .357 is very economical to reload in terms of powder and lead consumption. If I were going with a carbine I'd still make it a .357.
That said, I wonder when Rossi or Marlin will be selling them again?
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Ray »

Rusty wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 am Skeeter did an excellent article about this years ago and he settled on a 5" M27 S&W as his bug out gun. He gave a multitude of reasons. I liked the article so much I sought out an annual that has published it as well. The .357 is very economical to reload in terms of powder and lead consumption. If I were going with a carbine I'd still make it a .357.
That said, I wonder when Rossi or Marlin will be selling them again?
My Friend, The .357
by Skeeter Skelton
Shooting Times Magazine
June 1988
(Written by Skeeter in the mid-1960s, the following article was found by his wife Sally shortly after Skeeter's death. It is published here for the first time in its unedited version - the way we're sure Skeeter would have wanted it. - The Editors)
YOU CAN MAKE remarks about the ancestry of my dog. Have your doubts about the gas mileage toted up by my family sedan. Spread the story, if you wish, that my backyard barbecues could be best digested by a brood of Arkansas razorbacks. But if you cast aspersions on my .357 Magnum sixgun, get somebody to hold your coat. We'll continue the discussion in the alley.

I can hoist on his own petard the writer who claimed that the .357 cartridge has never achieved significance as a hunting round. The police brass who deny the usefulness of this gun and cartridge for law-enforcement purposes can be set straight with a few terse observations. Experts who say the load is too powerful and experts who proclaim it is less potent than a river rock from little David's slingshot will scurry for their ballistics tables if confronted by factual data on the private life of this great load.

It was conceived as a hunting cartridge by Douglas B. Wesson, one of the heirs to the giant Smith & Wesson firm. With the aid of ballistician Phil Sharpe, Wesson discovered that the S&W .38-44 Outdoorsman, a .38 Special mounted on the old .44 Special frame, would withstand extraordinarily high pressures. This quality was not a mysterious one; it was the simple sum of the thick cylinder walls and modern metals that made up the handsome, target-sighted Outdoorsman.

Sharpe's handloads, featuring a semi-wadcutter cast bullet over a heavy helping of Hercules 2400 rifle powder, gave velocity and long-range accuracy that had never before been realized in a revolver. During the experimental stages, Wesson killed almost every type of North American big game with his brainchild, justifying it as a hunting arm even before it went into production.

The .357 Magnum was formally introduced in 1935, along with a cartridge by Winchester. Bullet weight was 158 grains and diameter .357 inch - same as the .38 Special. The .357 cartridge case was approximately 1/10 - inch longer than that of the .38 Special to prevent the more powerful round from being chambered in skimpier .38 Special cylinders.

The Smith & Wesson Magnum was initially offered with a selection of 3½-, four-, five-, six-, 6½-, 7½-, and 8¾-inch barrels. It featured a delu8xe, high-polish blue job and checkering along its topstrap and barrel rib. The rear sight, slightly different from the S&W micrometer design of today, was adjustable for windage and elevation by means of opposing setscrews. A selection of front sight styles was available, including bead insert Patridge types and the then-new sloping Baughman quick-draw model mounted on a King ramp. The action was of the pre-World War II type which had a longer hammer throw than the short-action S&W revolver of today. A "humpbacked" hammer was offered on a special-order basis and was preferred by many who had difficulty in manipulating the rather small, standard hammer spur.

The first Winchester cartridges were hot as a depot stove, with pressures running higher than 40,000 ft-lbs. Velocity of these powerhouses ran around 1425 fps when fired from an 8¾-inch revolver, higher in unvented pressure barrels. Today's factory loadings generally fall short of the initial Winchester offerings, both in the velocity and pressure departments.

The factory .357 cartridge has done a lot to encourage handloading. It is a notorious barrel leader, leaving thick, accuracy-spoiling deposits of bullet metal scabbed up in the rifling after a very few shots. Serious shooters who want to be able to fire long strings without scrubbing the bore after every eight or 10 rounds have turned to putting together their own loads. These feature well-lubricated cast bullets of extra-hard bullet metal. My favorite answer to the .357 leading bugaboo has been the use of Lyman's 358156 gascheck bullet, a Ray Thompson design. Properly cast, sized, and lubricated, this semiwadcutter slug approximates the shape of the Phil Sharpe original and sports a copper-shielded base that resists the hot gases of the magnum powder charges. It is an exceptionally clean-shooting, accurate bullet for both light and heavily stoked .357 cartridges.

With this bullet, in both solid and hollowpoint form, I have proven to my own satisfaction that the .357 is a fine hunting pistol. Shooting a variety of Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and Colt magnums, I have killed mule deer and javelina in Mexico, antelope and turkey in Texas. My .357 has put the coup de grace to a great many head of heavy slaughter steers and big hamburger bulls, top hogs, sheep, and goats. With proper bullets, I have put ducks, Canadian geese, cottontail rabbits, and bullfrogs on my table. I once ate a tough ol White Longhorn rooster who had the misfortune to be left at an abandoned farmhouse where I made a dry camp. My .357 took his head off.

Turning to varmint hunting, I can testify that the .357 Magnum loaded with hollowpoint bullets offers all the destructive qualities needed at ranges up to 100 yards. Jackrabbits hit solidly with such a load are turned to mush. The plains coyotes I have killed with it have required no second shot when the first was placed anywhere in the thorax or abdominal cavity. One eagle and perhaps a hundred chicken hawks have dropped to my magnum bullets.

And my experience with this cartridge is by no means unusual. My friend, the late Dewey Hicks, was a fine pistol shot and avid hunter. Dewey killed both deer and coyotes with my .357 handloads. He once took an outing with a northern New Mexico rancher. Dewey wanted an elk, but the cowboy was looking for a muley buck for camp meat. He toted a worn six-inch Smith .357 in a brush-scarred hip holster but was a little worried about his ability to kill a deer with the only loads he had - six rounds of .38 Special wadcutters.

My friend presented him with a double handful of my favorite handloads, made from a recipe of the 358156 hollowpoint bullet held in its lower crimping groove by a Remington .38 Special case. The powder charge was 13.5 grains of 2400 fused with CCI Small Pistol primers. A few hours after loading up with these homebrews, the cowboy tumbled a running buck with a single shot through the spine at 50 yards.

These Tall-but-true tales could continue, but for what? Saying the .357 is insignificant as a hunting round is like saying that sourmash bourbon constitutes an unimportant factor in the diet of man. Maybe, but ain't there lots of it being put to use?

Almost all the objections to the .357 as a police weapon come from city police departments. It is argued, with some justification, that an officer who fires a magnum in a crowded city is more likely to kill innocent noncombatives than he would be if armed with a standard .38 Special. Not much mention is given to the fact that the same officer runs a hell of a lot more risk of being killed himself when his low-powered .38 fails to put an armed opponent out of action.

The .357 can, when necessary, be loaded down to any desired velocity level that will preclude unwanted penetration and yet offer a very good stopping power with proper bullets.

The Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Border Patrol have accepted the .357 as standard for the patrol officers. Many of these well-trained cops frequently work in crowded, metropolitan areas. Those that do find it a simple thing to load their magnums with medium-velocity handloads, sometimes with expanding bullets that are good manstoppers but which won't penetrate dangerously. These thinking cops carry full-powered "maggie" loads in the bullet loops of their Sam Browne Belts. If the need arises to stop a car or rouse out a barricaded gunman, they can do it.
The long suit of the .357 is its versatility in handling a wide range of special-purpose cartridges. These range from powder-puff .38 Special target loads to full-powered hunting rounds of up to 1600 fps velocity.

I have used many different bullet styles besides the Lyman 358156, although it has remained nearest my heart. A flatnosed semi wadcutter bullet performs best in the .357, especially in heavier loads, and several other good designs
are available. In preparing to load for this caliber, some thought should be given to the use of the swaged half-jacket bullets, although I have found them to be generally less satisfactory than good cast bullets, due to their leading qualities and to their greater expense.

Below is a table of my favorite .357 loads, separated into three categories. The first two sections, light loads and medium loads, can be put up in either .38 Special or .357 cases. I generally load these in .38 Special cases so they can be readily identified and also because .38 brass is cheaper. The third section, heavy loads, should be assembled in sound, clean .357 cases. While not each is a maximum load, they perform better than any other combinations of the same bullet and powder that I have tried. Bullets use are .357-inch diameter. Velocities are estimated to be those obtained in a 8 3/8-inch barreled revolver.

Since so many varying factors apply to make the results of handloading good, indifferent, or disastrous, neither Shooting Times nor I can be responsible for results obtained by the reader. I can only say that these loads have been safe and useful in my guns.

.357 Light Loads


Bullet Load Velocity
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 5.3 Grains Unique 900 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 5.0 Grains 5066 950 fps
Lyman 170-gr. 358429 3.5 Grains Bullseye 850 fps
150-gr. swaged half jacket 5.0 Grains Unique 900 fps



.357 Medium Loads


Bullet Load Velocity
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 13.5 Grains 2400 1200 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 13.5 Grains 2400 1250 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 7.0 Grains Unique 1250 fps
Lyman 170-gr. 358429 6.0 Grains Unique 1150 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 357446 5.0 Grains Red Dot 1000 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 357446 12.0 Grains 4759 1250 fps
150-gr. swaged half jacket 7.5 Grains Unique 1300 fps

.357 Heavy Loads


Bullet
Load Velocity

Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP
15.5 Grains 2400 1500 fps

Lyman 158-gr. 358156 15.0 Grains 2400 1450 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 15.0 Grains 4227 1400 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 8.0 Grains Unique 1400 fps

Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 14.0 Grains Sharpshooter 1600 fps

Lyman 158-gr. 357446 14.5 Grains 2400 1450 fps

Lyman 170-gr. 358429 14.5 Grains 2400 1400 fps

Lyman 170-gr. 358429 13.5 Grains H240 1350 fps

150-gr. swaged half jacket
14.5 Grains 2400 1400 fps

This list, of course, is by no means a comprehensive selection of .357 loads. It merely represents some that have worked well in my experience. Powder charges listed here may be used with other bullets of the same weight and similar design, but it is well to remember that a plainbase bullet, such as the 357466, will give higher pressures with the same powder charge than the gaschecked 358156. Too, a bullet case of soft alloy will show higher pressures and more barrel leading than one composed of a hard mixture, such as 1:10 tin to lead.

Barrel lengths affect muzzle velocities, but not as much as you may think. Longer barrels do a better job of burning the slow powders necessary for magnum loads, and many hunters buy guns with uncomfortably long barrels in order to squeeze the last foot-second of velocity from their loads.

Tests have shown that in cutting a 8 3/8-inch-barreled Smith .357 off one inch at a time, only about 35 fps velocity is lost for each inch removed when factory or high-velocity handloads are fired. This means that the shooter who carries a 8 3/8-inch model that gives 1500 fps would still get 1415 fps out of a six-inch revolver and 1345 fps if he chopped her down to four inches. The game he shoots isn't likely to know the difference, and the maggie man should pick the barrel length that he can shoot best and carry most comfortably.

In the middle '30s, the Smith & Wesson was the only sixgun chambered in .357. Colt didn't seem especially interested in the cartridge but did produce a few Model P single actions in that caliber, along with a sprinkling of New Service and Shooting Master double actions with its .45 frame. These prewar Colts are now collector's items.

Today Smith & Wesson offers its old original model, slightly refined, as well as a less highly finished version of the same gun, called the Highway Patrolman. Advances in metallurgy have enabled Smith & Wesson to chamber its .38 Special revolver for the .357 cartridge, and it holds forth as the Combat Magnum, filled up with target sights and a heavy, ribbed barrel.

Colt sells .357 sixguns in the form of the old Model P single action and its target-sighted offspring, the New frontier. The Python, an improved version of the famous .38 Officer's Model target revolver, is the top gun in the Colt line and one of the most popular .357s used by police. The Trooper is a less fancy version, competing with the S&W Highway Patrolman in price.

Sturm, Ruger & Co. came out with its .357 Blackhawk in 1955, and it is an exatremely practical, durable hunting arm. Intercontinental Arms of Los Angeles imports the Dakota, a good replica of the Colt single action from Italy that can be had in .357. Intercontinental also sells a sturdy derringer in the same caliber.


All of these handguns are strong and accurate. At one time or another, I have carried each of them at my side on hunting trips or in law-enforcement work. If I had to choose just one gun to side me for the rest of my life, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun, I would select a .357 Magnum revolver.

So if you're in a critical mood, pal, lay off my .357 - it's an old friend of mine.
m.A.g.a. !
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by wolfdog »

Since I already have them my 1894 FG and Model 57. Ammo not readily available but I have enough for my needs and would be able to handle anything I am likely to run into.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Ray »

Rusty wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 am Skeeter did an excellent article about this years ago and he settled on a 5" M27 S&W as his bug out gun. He gave a multitude of reasons. I liked the article so much I sought out an annual that has published it as well. The .357 is very economical to reload in terms of powder and lead consumption. If I were going with a carbine I'd still make it a .357.
That said, I wonder when Rossi or Marlin will be selling them again?
My Friend, The .357
by Skeeter Skelton
Shooting Times Magazine
June 1988
(Written by Skeeter in the mid-1960s, the following article was found by his wife Sally shortly after Skeeter's death. It is published here for the first time in its unedited version - the way we're sure Skeeter would have wanted it. - The Editors)
YOU CAN MAKE remarks about the ancestry of my dog. Have your doubts about the gas mileage toted up by my family sedan. Spread the story, if you wish, that my backyard barbecues could be best digested by a brood of Arkansas razorbacks. But if you cast aspersions on my .357 Magnum sixgun, get somebody to hold your coat. We'll continue the discussion in the alley.

I can hoist on his own petard the writer who claimed that the .357 cartridge has never achieved significance as a hunting round. The police brass who deny the usefulness of this gun and cartridge for law-enforcement purposes can be set straight with a few terse observations. Experts who say the load is too powerful and experts who proclaim it is less potent than a river rock from little David's slingshot will scurry for their ballistics tables if confronted by factual data on the private life of this great load.

It was conceived as a hunting cartridge by Douglas B. Wesson, one of the heirs to the giant Smith & Wesson firm. With the aid of ballistician Phil Sharpe, Wesson discovered that the S&W .38-44 Outdoorsman, a .38 Special mounted on the old .44 Special frame, would withstand extraordinarily high pressures. This quality was not a mysterious one; it was the simple sum of the thick cylinder walls and modern metals that made up the handsome, target-sighted Outdoorsman.

Sharpe's handloads, featuring a semi-wadcutter cast bullet over a heavy helping of Hercules 2400 rifle powder, gave velocity and long-range accuracy that had never before been realized in a revolver. During the experimental stages, Wesson killed almost every type of North American big game with his brainchild, justifying it as a hunting arm even before it went into production.

The .357 Magnum was formally introduced in 1935, along with a cartridge by Winchester. Bullet weight was 158 grains and diameter .357 inch - same as the .38 Special. The .357 cartridge case was approximately 1/10 - inch longer than that of the .38 Special to prevent the more powerful round from being chambered in skimpier .38 Special cylinders.

The Smith & Wesson Magnum was initially offered with a selection of 3½-, four-, five-, six-, 6½-, 7½-, and 8¾-inch barrels. It featured a delu8xe, high-polish blue job and checkering along its topstrap and barrel rib. The rear sight, slightly different from the S&W micrometer design of today, was adjustable for windage and elevation by means of opposing setscrews. A selection of front sight styles was available, including bead insert Patridge types and the then-new sloping Baughman quick-draw model mounted on a King ramp. The action was of the pre-World War II type which had a longer hammer throw than the short-action S&W revolver of today. A "humpbacked" hammer was offered on a special-order basis and was preferred by many who had difficulty in manipulating the rather small, standard hammer spur.

The first Winchester cartridges were hot as a depot stove, with pressures running higher than 40,000 ft-lbs. Velocity of these powerhouses ran around 1425 fps when fired from an 8¾-inch revolver, higher in unvented pressure barrels. Today's factory loadings generally fall short of the initial Winchester offerings, both in the velocity and pressure departments.

The factory .357 cartridge has done a lot to encourage handloading. It is a notorious barrel leader, leaving thick, accuracy-spoiling deposits of bullet metal scabbed up in the rifling after a very few shots. Serious shooters who want to be able to fire long strings without scrubbing the bore after every eight or 10 rounds have turned to putting together their own loads. These feature well-lubricated cast bullets of extra-hard bullet metal. My favorite answer to the .357 leading bugaboo has been the use of Lyman's 358156 gascheck bullet, a Ray Thompson design. Properly cast, sized, and lubricated, this semiwadcutter slug approximates the shape of the Phil Sharpe original and sports a copper-shielded base that resists the hot gases of the magnum powder charges. It is an exceptionally clean-shooting, accurate bullet for both light and heavily stoked .357 cartridges.

With this bullet, in both solid and hollowpoint form, I have proven to my own satisfaction that the .357 is a fine hunting pistol. Shooting a variety of Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and Colt magnums, I have killed mule deer and javelina in Mexico, antelope and turkey in Texas. My .357 has put the coup de grace to a great many head of heavy slaughter steers and big hamburger bulls, top hogs, sheep, and goats. With proper bullets, I have put ducks, Canadian geese, cottontail rabbits, and bullfrogs on my table. I once ate a tough ol White Longhorn rooster who had the misfortune to be left at an abandoned farmhouse where I made a dry camp. My .357 took his head off.

Turning to varmint hunting, I can testify that the .357 Magnum loaded with hollowpoint bullets offers all the destructive qualities needed at ranges up to 100 yards. Jackrabbits hit solidly with such a load are turned to mush. The plains coyotes I have killed with it have required no second shot when the first was placed anywhere in the thorax or abdominal cavity. One eagle and perhaps a hundred chicken hawks have dropped to my magnum bullets.

And my experience with this cartridge is by no means unusual. My friend, the late Dewey Hicks, was a fine pistol shot and avid hunter. Dewey killed both deer and coyotes with my .357 handloads. He once took an outing with a northern New Mexico rancher. Dewey wanted an elk, but the cowboy was looking for a muley buck for camp meat. He toted a worn six-inch Smith .357 in a brush-scarred hip holster but was a little worried about his ability to kill a deer with the only loads he had - six rounds of .38 Special wadcutters.

My friend presented him with a double handful of my favorite handloads, made from a recipe of the 358156 hollowpoint bullet held in its lower crimping groove by a Remington .38 Special case. The powder charge was 13.5 grains of 2400 fused with CCI Small Pistol primers. A few hours after loading up with these homebrews, the cowboy tumbled a running buck with a single shot through the spine at 50 yards.

These Tall-but-true tales could continue, but for what? Saying the .357 is insignificant as a hunting round is like saying that sourmash bourbon constitutes an unimportant factor in the diet of man. Maybe, but ain't there lots of it being put to use?

Almost all the objections to the .357 as a police weapon come from city police departments. It is argued, with some justification, that an officer who fires a magnum in a crowded city is more likely to kill innocent noncombatives than he would be if armed with a standard .38 Special. Not much mention is given to the fact that the same officer runs a hell of a lot more risk of being killed himself when his low-powered .38 fails to put an armed opponent out of action.

The .357 can, when necessary, be loaded down to any desired velocity level that will preclude unwanted penetration and yet offer a very good stopping power with proper bullets.

The Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Border Patrol have accepted the .357 as standard for the patrol officers. Many of these well-trained cops frequently work in crowded, metropolitan areas. Those that do find it a simple thing to load their magnums with medium-velocity handloads, sometimes with expanding bullets that are good manstoppers but which won't penetrate dangerously. These thinking cops carry full-powered "maggie" loads in the bullet loops of their Sam Browne Belts. If the need arises to stop a car or rouse out a barricaded gunman, they can do it.
The long suit of the .357 is its versatility in handling a wide range of special-purpose cartridges. These range from powder-puff .38 Special target loads to full-powered hunting rounds of up to 1600 fps velocity.

I have used many different bullet styles besides the Lyman 358156, although it has remained nearest my heart. A flatnosed semi wadcutter bullet performs best in the .357, especially in heavier loads, and several other good designs
are available. In preparing to load for this caliber, some thought should be given to the use of the swaged half-jacket bullets, although I have found them to be generally less satisfactory than good cast bullets, due to their leading qualities and to their greater expense.

Below is a table of my favorite .357 loads, separated into three categories. The first two sections, light loads and medium loads, can be put up in either .38 Special or .357 cases. I generally load these in .38 Special cases so they can be readily identified and also because .38 brass is cheaper. The third section, heavy loads, should be assembled in sound, clean .357 cases. While not each is a maximum load, they perform better than any other combinations of the same bullet and powder that I have tried. Bullets use are .357-inch diameter. Velocities are estimated to be those obtained in a 8 3/8-inch barreled revolver.

Since so many varying factors apply to make the results of handloading good, indifferent, or disastrous, neither Shooting Times nor I can be responsible for results obtained by the reader. I can only say that these loads have been safe and useful in my guns.

.357 Light Loads


Bullet Load Velocity
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 5.3 Grains Unique 900 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 5.0 Grains 5066 950 fps
Lyman 170-gr. 358429 3.5 Grains Bullseye 850 fps
150-gr. swaged half jacket 5.0 Grains Unique 900 fps



.357 Medium Loads


Bullet Load Velocity
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 13.5 Grains 2400 1200 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 13.5 Grains 2400 1250 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 7.0 Grains Unique 1250 fps
Lyman 170-gr. 358429 6.0 Grains Unique 1150 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 357446 5.0 Grains Red Dot 1000 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 357446 12.0 Grains 4759 1250 fps
150-gr. swaged half jacket 7.5 Grains Unique 1300 fps

.357 Heavy Loads


Bullet
Load Velocity

Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP
15.5 Grains 2400 1500 fps

Lyman 158-gr. 358156 15.0 Grains 2400 1450 fps
Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 15.0 Grains 4227 1400 fps
Lyman 158-gr. 358156 8.0 Grains Unique 1400 fps

Lyman 150-gr. 358156 HP 14.0 Grains Sharpshooter 1600 fps

Lyman 158-gr. 357446 14.5 Grains 2400 1450 fps

Lyman 170-gr. 358429 14.5 Grains 2400 1400 fps

Lyman 170-gr. 358429 13.5 Grains H240 1350 fps

150-gr. swaged half jacket
14.5 Grains 2400 1400 fps

This list, of course, is by no means a comprehensive selection of .357 loads. It merely represents some that have worked well in my experience. Powder charges listed here may be used with other bullets of the same weight and similar design, but it is well to remember that a plainbase bullet, such as the 357466, will give higher pressures with the same powder charge than the gaschecked 358156. Too, a bullet case of soft alloy will show higher pressures and more barrel leading than one composed of a hard mixture, such as 1:10 tin to lead.

Barrel lengths affect muzzle velocities, but not as much as you may think. Longer barrels do a better job of burning the slow powders necessary for magnum loads, and many hunters buy guns with uncomfortably long barrels in order to squeeze the last foot-second of velocity from their loads.

Tests have shown that in cutting a 8 3/8-inch-barreled Smith .357 off one inch at a time, only about 35 fps velocity is lost for each inch removed when factory or high-velocity handloads are fired. This means that the shooter who carries a 8 3/8-inch model that gives 1500 fps would still get 1415 fps out of a six-inch revolver and 1345 fps if he chopped her down to four inches. The game he shoots isn't likely to know the difference, and the maggie man should pick the barrel length that he can shoot best and carry most comfortably.

In the middle '30s, the Smith & Wesson was the only sixgun chambered in .357. Colt didn't seem especially interested in the cartridge but did produce a few Model P single actions in that caliber, along with a sprinkling of New Service and Shooting Master double actions with its .45 frame. These prewar Colts are now collector's items.

Today Smith & Wesson offers its old original model, slightly refined, as well as a less highly finished version of the same gun, called the Highway Patrolman. Advances in metallurgy have enabled Smith & Wesson to chamber its .38 Special revolver for the .357 cartridge, and it holds forth as the Combat Magnum, filled up with target sights and a heavy, ribbed barrel.

Colt sells .357 sixguns in the form of the old Model P single action and its target-sighted offspring, the New frontier. The Python, an improved version of the famous .38 Officer's Model target revolver, is the top gun in the Colt line and one of the most popular .357s used by police. The Trooper is a less fancy version, competing with the S&W Highway Patrolman in price.

Sturm, Ruger & Co. came out with its .357 Blackhawk in 1955, and it is an exatremely practical, durable hunting arm. Intercontinental Arms of Los Angeles imports the Dakota, a good replica of the Colt single action from Italy that can be had in .357. Intercontinental also sells a sturdy derringer in the same caliber.


All of these handguns are strong and accurate. At one time or another, I have carried each of them at my side on hunting trips or in law-enforcement work. If I had to choose just one gun to side me for the rest of my life, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun, I would select a .357 Magnum revolver.

So if you're in a critical mood, pal, lay off my .357 - it's an old friend of mine.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by OldWin »

If sticking strictly to the "one gun", and ruling out hordes of zombies or stormtroopers, I could get by in my country with a 94 carbine in 30-30 or a 92 in .357.
Boring, I know, but I like boring as I get older.
If allowed a handgun, my old Smith 66 or GP100.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by jhrosier »

I have developed a fondness for the 1903A3 Springfield rifle.
Not so much for "only one" as for "first choice.
I might replace the '03 on the top of the list for an 1895 in 7.62x54Rmm, if I could find one in exelent condition AND in my income bracket.

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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by KirkD »

Already figured this out long ago and acquired the appropriate hardware ... a 30-30 carbine. I've got two of them (one for my wife, cause she's coming with me if we have to disappear into the northern wastes for several years) and more ammo than I'd care to carry in my pack.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by 765x53 »

When the "one gun" question comes up, my question is, can I still have all of the muzzle-loaders and air guns I want?
If the answer is "yes", I'll keep my Mini 14, or my S&W 39 for home defense.
If the answer is "no", I'll chose the most versatile and fun to use gun I can think of, a flint-lock fowler.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by stretch »

One carbine?

I'm gonna say I'm happy with my SKS in 7.62 x 39.

One caliber?

357 really is an excellent choice, and so we're talking a levergun.

-Stretch
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by marlinman93 »

If I could only have one gun the caliber or type wouldn't matter much. I'd just shoot myself with whatever single gun I was forced to own, and not worry about what it was. Can't imagine only having one gun?
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by goldstar225 »

Marlin 1894 in .357. Second choice would be Marlin or Winchester .30/30.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Paladin »

Sorry to not pick one of the many lever guns I use but if I am restricted to one this is my pick (this one is mine). It takes a common round and with the locked bolt pushes it enough to make it very effective on deer sized game out too 100 yards (I have taken 7 whitetails with it suppressed). For home use, I have a pretty good record with one as I have carried one on 4 continents and it has never failed me. What I tell many groups I train is when it gets to the point you need something like this just have a good rifle and optics and when you see someone carrying what you want shoot them and take theirs.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

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Done
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Old Savage »

Looking over some ballistics on velocity by the inch it would appear that 16" is about optimum barrel length.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Merle »

Paladin wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:29 pm Sorry to not pick one of the many lever guns I use but if I am restricted to one this is my pick (this one is mine). It takes a common round and with the locked bolt pushes it enough to make it very effective on deer sized game out too 100 yards (I have taken 7 whitetails with it suppressed). For home use, I have a pretty good record with one as I have carried one on 4 continents and it has never failed me. What I tell many groups I train is when it gets to the point you need something like this just have a good rifle and optics and when you see someone carrying what you want shoot them and take theirs.

Considering your attitude, I am hoping that they see you first - and shoot you !!!
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

I agree with Paladin on the cartridge, gun and even his method of obtaining a more desirable gun. :D The MP5 is a lot lighter and ergonomic than the Uzi but I don't know the MP5 as well as the Uzi. My buddy has a non transferable MP5 (class 3 dl.) and if it was not for the little vertical grip on the front it's easy to blow your fingers off if your not paying attention. The thing is a blast to shoot, especially when suppressed....you only hear the mechanical workings of the gun. The Sig MPX would also fit in this game.

Assuming we are talking about "all around" or "one gun" carbines , well, you do need high capacity. You also need to have the ability to easily adapt that gun from metallic sights to scope/RD, be able to fold it and tuck it. The 9mm cartridge, like the ..22 LR, kills out of its proportion to size and it comes close to killing power, not paper ballistics, to the 357 when using 147's.

The ultimate carbine would be an MP5, fun switch, that would reliably shoot 38 Spl. or 357 ammo. (Well, the sports guys have their "fantasy football" and we can have ours) :D -----6
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Merle »

Sixgun wrote: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:22 am I agree with Paladin on the cartridge, gun and even his method of obtaining a more desirable gun. :D The MP5 is a lot lighter and ergonomic than the Uzi but I don't know the MP5 as well as the Uzi. My buddy has a non transferable MP5 (class 3 dl.) and if it was not for the little vertical grip on the front it's easy to blow your fingers off if your not paying attention. The thing is a blast to shoot, especially when suppressed....you only hear the mechanical workings of the gun. The Sig MPX would also fit in this game.

Assuming we are talking about "all around" or "one gun" carbines , well, you do need high capacity. You also need to have the ability to easily adapt that gun from metallic sights to scope/RD, be able to fold it and tuck it. The 9mm cartridge, like the ..22 LR, kills out of its proportion to size and it comes close to killing power, not paper ballistics, to the 357 when using 147's.

The ultimate carbine would be an MP5, fun switch, that would reliably shoot 38 Spl. or 357 ammo. (Well, the sports guys have their "fantasy football" and we can have ours) :D -----6

So you are another one that advocates murder? Shame on both of you!!!
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by piller »

Merle, it is just a what if scenario. Paladin is on the side of law and order. He wouldn't murder anyone. As a soldier, he would only kill those whom his Country says are enemies. I was a soldier a long time ago, and was trained to be willing to kill the enemies of our Country without any hesitation. I would never kill without just cause. I realize that you and I don't have the same backgrounds, but we are both here. That means we have some common ground. If you ever get to the South side of Dallas, let me know and I will buy you a cup of coffee and we can get acquainted. Since it is sometimes tough to know precisely what a person means from words on paper, I could be misinterpreting your post. Because we are both here, I am trying to find more common ground and avoid potential friction. If I read more into your post than what you meant, then I will apologize.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by COSteve »

Done
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by piller »

I like Ballistics By the Inch's site. Lots of good information there.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Muddly »

A few qualifiers may be in order here.
Ammo should be widely available.
Should handle cast bullets well. Just in case
Should be able to use salvaged powder and maybe even Holy Black if necessary.
Shouldn't be a powder pig.
Compact firearm.
In appearance, it shouldn't attract negative attention.
Accurate.
Reliable.
Durable.
Powerful enough to handle real/imagined needs.
For me, its my Savage M99 30-30. It actually is my only breechloader. Not forgetting ,that properly applied, I could get something different with it. If you know what I mean.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by COSteve »

Done
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Catshooter »

Ballistics By the Inch may be a fun site, but c'mon guys, don't you handload? BBI doesn't. They don't take into consideration that if you select the right powder, you get more velocity with a longer barrel. I've chronographed loads in 9mm that gain more than 400 feet in a 16 incher. Won't equal the .357 in power naturally, the .357's case is much longer.


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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

Merle wrote------So you are another one that advocates murder? Shame on both of you!!!

Oh come on Merle! We are all wolfdogs here....which means we have the capacity and will to kill but choose only to do it to protect the lives of innocent people or ourselves. Shame on the individual who steps into my castle as the last thing they are gonna see is a bright flash. :D

Steve.....OK, your research and smarts got me good but let's try it my way. You stand at 100 meters while I load a 150 gr. 357 at 1400 and I'll shoot your left arm. Then I'll take the Uzi and load a 147 Black Talon and shoot your right arm...after it's done you tell me which hurts more. :D

I still say the 9mm in a semi auto ...or full auto would be a much better "all around carbine" than a lever action 357. It may be not quite as powerful but it's close potatos. If I'm convinced otherwise, I'll just saw the barrel of this down to 16". ----6 :D

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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Merle »

Sixgun wrote: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:17 pm Merle wrote------So you are another one that advocates murder? Shame on both of you!!!

Oh come on Merle! We are all wolfdogs here....which means we have the capacity and will to kill but choose only to do it to protect the lives of innocent people or ourselves. Shame on the individual who steps into my castle as the last thing they are gonna see is a bright flash. :D

Steve.....OK, your research and smarts got me good but let's try it my way. You stand at 100 meters while I load a 150 gr. 357 at 1400 and I'll shoot your left arm. Then I'll take the Uzi and load a 147 Black Talon and shoot your right arm...after it's done you tell me which hurts more. :D

I still say the 9mm in a semi auto ...or full auto would be a much better "all around carbine" than a lever action 357. It may be not quite as powerful but it's close potatos. If I'm convinced otherwise, I'll just saw the barrel of this down to 16". ----6 :D

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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

Absolutely Merle. I believe Paladin and for sure myself said this in tongue-in-cheek. Maybe it's like this....In WW2 the U.S. dropped thousands of 45 acp "liberator pistols" on occupied territory by the Nazis. The plan was for good people to take these guns and shoot Nazis in order to take their guns. That's pretty much what Paladin and myself refer to.

On a different note, at the end of WW2, my father and another soldier were guarding a railroad depot with orders to shoot any trespassers. One day two civilian teenagers were spotted attempting to break into a railroad car and the other guy said to my dad, "I'm gonna shoot those guys." My dad told him if he shoots the kids, he will shoot him.----6
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Ray »

Sixgun wrote: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:22 am

The 9mm cartridge, like the ..22 LR, kills out of its proportion to size and it comes close to killing power, not paper ballistics, to the 357 when using 147's.

:D -----6
There is a member here who used to use his keltec sub2000 9mm and sierra 95 gr. flat nosed fmj to cleanly and neatly slay deer, coyote, bobcat, badger, and racoon on his family farm. He optimistically thought he should be getting 2000fps.....He finally chronoed the load and was disappointed....it got just under 1500 fps. Out of his browning hi power it did actually a little better.

He was so disgusted he stopped using it and was quite vocal about the "sorry anemic 9mm"....Never mind all of the one-shot kills.....I know you cannot reliably judge the size of a critter by photos due to perspective and optical illusion but some of the deer sure looked big to me.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

I hear ya Ray....that's called "real world experience". Elmer Keith and Roy Weatherby ......in their day......had continuing arguments on heavy vs. light bullets. I worked with two black guys (brother in laws) who grew up in lower Delaware on farms. These guys are well in their eighties now. They lived on deer, geese, ducks, rabbits, squirrels...lots of squirrels, they loved em......anyway, they told me there was no money for shotgun shells in those days. Everything was shot with a .22 and they said the .22 did just fine on everything.-----6
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by OldWin »

My old gunsmith buddy and mentor told me not to get hung up on the numbers when I started playing with old guns and casting.
The important things are consistancy, accuracy, and results.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by mickbr »

I actually only have one centrefire rifle these days. I left the shooting sports, then decided to come back and work out what was going to be my 'last gun ever'. Eventually decided on A rossi 357 for compatibilty with pistols, under 3 grain loads get you 38sp power so a few lbs of powder is small game forever, and hot loads get me all the bigger game I shoot. Loaded ammo is only 3.5lbs per 100 rounds if you have to 'bug out', about similar to loaded 223, but 357 will pack 15% denser in an ammo can. Second choice would be ruger 10/22.
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Old Ironsights »

The gun(s) I have.

.357 Carbines/short rifles backed with a .357 revolver.

Tough to beat unless you have to step back to Black, then .45 Colt/.454 is better.

(And trading my .357 1894CSS for a good .454 Stainless Short Rifle (& Stainless SAA?) is a highly desirable option...)
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by AJMD429 »

Old Ironsights wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:27 pm The gun(s) I have.

.357 Carbines/short rifles backed with a .357 revolver.

Tough to beat unless you have to step back to Black, then .45 Colt/.454 is better.

(And trading my .357 1894CSS for a good .454 Stainless Short Rifle (& Stainless SAA?) is a highly desirable option...)
Yeah....as I go through my "need cash - thinning the herd" process, I look at my 16" Rossi 454 Casull as perhaps the best 'do-everything' carbine, and perhaps a 45 Colt or 44 Mag as 'second-best', or a 357 Mag levergun as 'actually-better-but-not-quiet-as-good-with-limited-powders', it is hard to choose between the 357 Mag Marlin 1894 CSS and the 454 Casull Rossi 92. The Marlin is simpler with fewer and more robust parts, and better 'spare parts' supply, yet the 454 is definitely more powerful, and could put lead downstream (especially if you include saboted loads which could include pea-gravel in a pinch) with a wider powder selection (including home-brew black powder). Both have great handgun 'companion guns' available - the Redhawk in 45 Colt or 454 Casull, and any number of excellent 357 Mags. The larger calibers use up more lead if you use normal bullets, but leave room for cheap saboted loads. The 357 handguns cause deafness without hearing protection. Lots of decisions.

For now, I am lucky enough to have BOTH calibers/cartridges as options, so still I'm like the "bi-curious" kids - I haven't committed to 357 or 45 caliber yet.

Then there is the complexity introduced by the 44 Magnum, thanks to good old uncle-Elmer.

And I'm not even going to get into the 41 Magnum....!
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Paladin
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Paladin »

Merle, sorry to upset you with my response.
I can not imagine an (Only have one gun scenario) that does not work sort of like hunting in many places in Alaska where when a shot is fired the resident predators show up thinking the dinner bell has rung. I have seen both wolves and brown bears show up to shots fired. This is also what happens in some of the places I have been sent only the predators are the two-legged type carrying a large assortment (some high end) military weapons from 12.7 heavy weapons vehicle mounted, RPGs, and belt-fed lighter weapons. Both of these predators were going to the sound for the same reason, (looking for prey weaker than them to get something for nothing). So far neither my friends or I have been the weaker prey even though there have been a couple of firefights (in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan and some other places where there was no law) that were required to prove the point. When I joined this blog I took the name of the organization I was working for (JTF Paladin in Afghanistan) JTF Paladin was responsible for trying to stop IEDs and bomb makers around the world that targeted US Personnel.
Between the Law Enforcement work and military work I have done from 1973 to the present, I have mainly dealt with the 5% of the population most people would not even admit exist (EVIL). Please do not think they are not real and if it has gotten to the point you are only in possession of "One Carbine" a shot will not bring predators.
I hope my reality never happens in your area. Consider the praise, Wish for the best but, plan for the worst.
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Merle
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Merle »

Paladin wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:11 am Merle, sorry to upset you with my response.
I can not imagine an (Only have one gun scenario) that does not work sort of like hunting in many places in Alaska where when a shot is fired the resident predators show up thinking the dinner bell has rung. I have seen both wolves and brown bears show up to shots fired. This is also what happens in some of the places I have been sent only the predators are the two-legged type carrying a large assortment (some high end) military weapons from 12.7 heavy weapons vehicle mounted, RPGs, and belt-fed lighter weapons. Both of these predators were going to the sound for the same reason, (looking for prey weaker than them to get something for nothing). So far neither my friends or I have been the weaker prey even though there have been a couple of firefights (in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan and some other places where there was no law) that were required to prove the point. When I joined this blog I took the name of the organization I was working for (JTF Paladin in Afghanistan) JTF Paladin was responsible for trying to stop IEDs and bomb makers around the world that targeted US Personnel.
Between the Law Enforcement work and military work I have done from 1973 to the present, I have mainly dealt with the 5% of the population most people would not even admit exist (EVIL). Please do not think they are not real and if it has gotten to the point you are only in possession of "One Carbine" a shot will not bring predators.
I hope my reality never happens in your area. Consider the praise, Wish for the best but, plan for the worst.

The situation you describe is considerably different than some sort of upheaval at home. In that case, taking the weapons (and ammo) is a wise decision, as it prevents the scumbags friends (or next of kin) from retrieving them and using them against friendly forces.

I saw enough of that in the Mekong Delta - and I will never forget.
Merle from PA
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Sixgun »

Paladin and Merle.......you guys are warriors to which I'd like to shake your hands someday. -----6
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mickbr
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by mickbr »

I worked Africa/ME circuit when I got out over 10 years ago. To be honest not many of us really got the experience to compare a lot of guns. Smallarms are 5.56, contractors mostly get end user certificates for 7.62x39, some 7.62 x 51 amongst euro guys. By the late 2000's the game was more about short VIP runs and letting 3rd worlders or local guys do the real heavy lifting anyway. One thing I can say is if the guy really knows his guns, even a bolt action can be a nightmare to deal with. Don't count anyone out including yourself regardless what the gun is.
Merle
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Re: The ideal 'if only one gun' carbine...

Post by Merle »

mickbr wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:24 am I worked Africa/ME circuit when I got out over 10 years ago. To be honest not many of us really got the experience to compare a lot of guns. Smallarms are 5.56, contractors mostly get end user certificates for 7.62x39, some 7.62 x 51 amongst euro guys. By the late 2000's the game was more about short VIP runs and letting 3rd worlders or local guys do the real heavy lifting anyway. One thing I can say is if the guy really knows his guns, even a bolt action can be a nightmare to deal with. Don't count anyone out including yourself regardless what the gun is.

YEP !!! :o
Merle from PA
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