The older I get the less I know... about reloading...

[earlmck]

I have a couple of m92 25/20's, and have loaded for them for a long time. My dies are "Herters" which I bought new, so that gives you some idea I've been doing it for a while. One of them is a shade-tree gunsmith job where somebody screwed a m53 barrel on an old m92 frame and did a fair job of making a m53 style half-magazine rifle. He might've stopped screwing in the barrel about one turn short though and it has seriously excess headspace.

No problemo -- I just make brass for that rifle out of 32/20 brass and leave the shoulder out there to create a decent headspace.

So I have been making 25/20's out of 32/20's for a fair number of years also. And the old Herter's fl size die was never super smooth and has got rougher over the years and scratches cases just a bit, but I have polished at it a couple times and the scratches are pretty minor. But a few weeks ago I picked up a brandy new Lee set which included a factory crimp die for about the price of the fc die itself -- couldn't pass it up. And the new fl die does a nice job of full-length sizing without leaving any little scratch marks like the old Herters.

But here's the puzzler to me: when I make my 32/20's into 25/20's using the Lee die I get a high failure rate. My tried 'n true procedure is to first run the case part way into a 32/20 fl die to make sure the neck is perfectly round. Then I have a shortened 7mm BR die I run them into to get the neck sized to 7mm as an intermediate step; then into the 25/20 fl size die adjusted to fix the headspace. I had always thought my little 7mm intermediate step insured me a virtually 100% success rate

Which it still does if I use the old Herter's die, but not with the Lee. I was loosing at least 30% to nasty wrinkles and crinkles in various places on the case until I went back to the Herter's. So man, I feel real dumb now. I have given out the advice of how to make 25/20's from 32/20's to various folks over the years and had no idea the brand of the size die could make any difference.

I just loaded up a batch for the other 25/20 which doesn't have any headspace problem and for which I use regular 25/20 brass. I tried both size dies and I'd swear the Lee does a nicer, smoother, easier sizing of the already formed brass. But it sure messes up when used in the forming operation. I really really don't understand...

[GunnyMack]

Now this is a head scratcher!
I would say your procedure is the way to go, why you are getting bad cases I can't say.
Now I am not one that does this for any on my cartridges.(only thing I have to make brass for is my 257 Ackley which is so easy, just chamber a 257 Roberts and pull trigger)
Your theory/ process seems right to me ,you have had success with your old system so maybe stick with that.
I have an old Savage 23B in 25-20. Each and every time I find loaded Ammo I buy it, last box was Remington that had been siting on the shelf so long the box was faded, $60 bucks but just to have more brass is worth it.

Maybe try the 7mm die in steps instead of one ?

[jhrosier]

I wonder if the type of sizing lube could cause a problem?
I would try Imperial sizing die lube which is a sort of wax that you rub on with your finger.

Jack

[fordwannabe]

It would seem to me that the expander part of the lee die, might be causing too much pressure on the case neck causing you wrinkle and killed cases. I would try smoothing the transition of that pin and see if it helps. Also you might try removing the expander decapping pin from the lee and see if the crushing stops. At least then you will know where the problem is. Good luck and please keep us posted.

[stretch]

Okay, here's my 2 cents:

Wrinkled rifle cases are many times, though not always, related
to lube.

The old Herter's die is probably a little wee bit bigger than the new
Lee die. The surface, as you say, is rougher. I think that the combination
of that very slightly greater size and rough surface texture is allowing your
lube to flow to the point where it isn't a problem. Those little scratches
and pits are preventing the lube from being trapped.

Maybe try a couple of things?

Try the FL sizing in 2 steps with the Lee die. Look for a ridge of lube on
the case after the first step. If that works, I'll bet it's an excess lube problem,
at least for that particular die/process combination.

See if there's some trapped lube in the shoulder area of the die, too. (But
you've done that already, now haven't you? )

Resizing with the Lee die is is no problem, if I read your post correctly.

I think the new die is trapping lube somewhere in the FL forming process.

You've loaded WAY more rifle cases than I have, so I could be wrong.......

-Stretch

[Griff]

I, oh so, badly want to say: "You get what you pay for". But I won't. I do think that fordwannabe is onto something.

[Bill in Oregon]

Earl, I am stumped as well. Have you measured any dimensional differences in cases sized in the two different dies?

[earlmck]

I, oh so, badly want to say: "You get what you pay for".

Thanks for the good thoughts fellows. I don't have any 32/20 cases to try anything more at the moment -- I finished all I had using the Herter's die and those may last another decade the way I shoot.

Yep -- Imperial is my "go to" when I want to be sure Jack. But it didn't change a thing this time.

And if I had some cases left to play with, your expander interference idea would be my next one to try ford.

And you got 'er stretch -- too much lube is often behind wrinkles in cases. I tried several variations in the lube dept this time and don't think that was the problem this time. But as I say -- I'm not so sure of myself after this adventure.

And Bill, my limited measure tools don't detect any significant difference in dimension (I just looked at the base size in the dies and if anything the Lee is a scosh larger). After thinking about it and looking some more, what I do see that is a difference is that the Lee has a much larger diameter shoulder vent hole than the Herters, which has a small vent hole about the same size as my RCBS and Lyman dies. I messed up and let my failures go off in the garbage truck last Friday, but my recollection of them is that I got some serious neck buckles that just might correlate in position with this extra-large shoulder vent hole.

I just walked out to the garage and looked. I have several sets of Lee dies for bottleneck cartridges and they all have teensy little shoulder vent holes similar to my RCBS, Herter, and Lyman dies. EXCEPT for the 32/20 and 25/20 Lee dies which have vent holes at least twice the diameter of the others. I dunno. Only thing I have come with as a difference except of course the expander rod is built different (which is one of the things I normally like about the Lees).