Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

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mikld
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Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

I thought this forum might be my best source of info, lots of old revolver shooters here (if there's a better on let me know, please). I'm looking at a Cimarron "Pistolero" in 45 Colt and wondering if any that have this gun can answer a question. On fixed sight revolvers POI is often different than POA, and I know I can vary POI elevation with differing loads, but I don't want to deal with windage differences (no twisting bbls.). Any Cimarron SA owners with experience on POI? I plan on a "classic" handload of a 250 gr cast bullet running about 800-900 fps. So, pistoleros, any help?

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

Hmmm, too narrow subject question? Sorry... :oops:
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 2ndovc »

I had an Artillery model years ago that was one of the most accurate single action revolvers I've had. I traded it off to buy a Cavalry Model but it just didn't work out. I'll pick up another one eventually. They import the parts and finish/ assemble them here. Beautiful Stuff.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I'm afraid you're going to need to find out for yourself, as there are about as many differences between POA & POI as there are shooters - all shooting the same SAA & ammo.

The reasons for all the differences are different shooters have different ways to grip SAA's, different grip strengths, different size hands, and differing ways to look at the sights.

For instance, I prefer a smooth grip to let SAA's rotate upward at the shot to expedite re-cocking; but many other shooters may prefer a solid/non-rocking or rubber grip.

.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Old Savage »

POI varies with grip even with the same shooter. You just have to shoot it on paper to know.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Ray »

They all shoot to the left for me though during dry firing sessions the front sight seems to appear to pull to the right.....

Some revolvers i use Kentucky windage and just aim to the right....with a wide rear notch i use a "gee" bead.....under stress in the field i aim dead center and somehow, either consciously or unconsciously, steer the bullet straight....

Sooner or later some expert goomer will tell you that they are all perfectly regulated horizontally and you just need to learn how to shoot....I dissent using the invention of adjustable sights as my proof.....
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Lefty Dude »

My Cimarron/Uberti SA 45 Colt likes and shoots 250 gr's, POA/POI very well with a six O'clock hold very well. My Artillery model's barrel Slugs at .450", the Cylinder throats are .451". My loads are 7.9 Gr. Unique, under a Nosler .451" 250 gr. JHP. Nosler makes this bullet for Colt revolvers. My lead load is 255 gr. cast RNFP, sized .452", under 7 gr's of Unique.
Both of these loads shoot to almost the same POA. They are both very accurate.

My Cimarron/Uberti 5 1/2" 45 Colt. With engraving by Jim Dowing, "The Gun Engraver". Custom One piece Grips by Joe Perkins, "Outlaw Grips Tucson, Arizona.

The Custom grip has a left palm swell, I am a Lefty. I had Joe incorporate this in the Grip, helps for long range shooting.

This piece was a standard Cimarron Artillery model, prior to personalization.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

Thanks fellers. I only have one SA, a big heavy Ruger SBH w/7 1/2 bbl, and I've not had any grip problems (I can't remember adjusting the sights for windage), but of course can be wrong. The one revolver I had that shot to the left, shot that way for three shooters, amount varied by shooter. 4" DA fixed sight 38...

I'm still whinking hard about getting one. I deserve a new gun as I've been a good boy lately (That's my story and I'm sticking to it...).
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by J Miller »

mikld,

I have noticed a trend in .45 Colt revolvers over the decades I've been shooting them. Most of them will shoot way high with standard Rem / Win 250 / 255 gr factory loads or equivalent hand loads. My 4" S&W 25-5, 7.5" OM Ruger Blackhawk and 4.75" Uberti made Iver Johnsons imported Cattleman all needed taller front sights to shoot point of aim. The windage was not a problem on the S&W or Cattleman, but as usual the Ruger had the front sight leaning like the Leaning Tower of Pizza.
KSWCHPgroup_2.jpg
Basically, check out the gun before you buy it, if the front sight is tilted, pass it by. It it's straight, well the gun still might not shoot to POA but there is a better chance it might.

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 35 Whelen »

Is the Pistolero you're looking at like this?:

Image

If so, it's a Pietta. I bought this one earlier in the year and try as I might, could never get it to shoot worth a flip, so I sold it. Not an indictment on all Pistolero's, it could very easily have been that that particular revolver was a lemon.

Another thing most don't realize is the Pietta's are physically closer in size to the original Colts where the Uberti SA's have a very slightly larger frame and cylinder, almost identical the Ruger New Vaquero. You really have to have a set of calipers to know the difference, but it does make for a slightly stouter revolver.

I shoot and have shot dozens of SA firearms over the last few years, still own about nine of them. With the exception of a problem child New Vaquero, I've found that all of the "shooting left" problems were operator error and that the revolver wasn't being held properly. As far as vertical POA vs. POI, most revolvers out of the box shoot low and bringing them to POI = POA is simply a matter working down the front sight. My single exception is a USFA Rodeo in 45 Colt. It is hands down the most well built and accurate revolver I've ever owned, but it shoots ridiculously high with all but very light loads, so I'll have to find someone to build up the front sight.

So, like I said, most "shooting left" is an improper grip.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Ray »

Just like I said, some essobee would chime in with the inevitable operator error rigmarole......again, I counter with the why of the invention of adjustable sights.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by marlinman93 »

I've "adjusted" the sights on several SAA clones when they needed windage or elevation changes to get them hitting center. As long as they don't need huge amounts of change it can be easily done with a set of jeweler's files. I have used the files to open up the notch on the top of the frame left or right to change impact. Also narrowed front blades with a larger file, or taken metal off the top of the front blade to raise POI if shooting too low.
Once done I use a Q tip and some Oxpho Blue to touch up the front sight, or color in the bare metal on the frame notch. The frames are color cased, but the tiny bit of blue inside the notch is unnoticeable when touched up with bluing. I like my SAA guns to hit where I aim, and I'd never just leave them alone if they can be easily adjusted to hit correctly.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

Wow, thanks fellers.Yep Whelen, that's the model I want, but there's limited gun sales in my small town and I'll have to order it before I can check it out (only one "gun shop" and two box stores that sell some firearms and all have a very limited inventory, so I don't want to order one, wait, check it out, if needed send it back and wait again, all after paying for it up front. I have done some limited sight "adjustments" on fixed sight guns but none on the rear notch.

From the help here, I guess it's gonna be like nearly every other gun I've purchased, buy it and shoot (a lot) then decide if it's a good gun... :lol:
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Pete44ru »

mikld wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:52 am
From the help here, I guess it's gonna be like nearly every other gun I've purchased, buy it and shoot (a lot) then decide if it's a good gun... :lol:


Yep - the proof's in the pudding...……….. :mrgreen:


.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 35 Whelen »

Ray wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 am Just like I said, some essobee would chime in with the inevitable operator error rigmarole......again, I counter with the why of the invention of adjustable sights.
No need to get pissy. You said yourself ".....under stress in the field i aim dead center and somehow, either consciously or unconsciously, steer the bullet straight...."
. That should tell you something. But shooting a revolver straight is no accident or just happenstance.

I learned these things the hard way. A few years ago when I first started shooting SA's beyond just plinking, I worked the sights down on a couple of my .44 Special's so my hunting load would hit POA at 50 yds., only to find out that as I shot more and more and honed my shooting, my points of impact changed. So I got to learn how to solder front sights into barrels, and more importantly learned to shoot ALOT before taking a file to the sights!

A properly assembled revolver should shoot relatively close where windage is concerned. Think about it; If a straight barrel with a good crown is screwed into a straight, square receiver and the sights are centered on the receiver and the barrel, what, other than operator error, could possibly make a bullet go left or right of the sights??

Operator error can be compounded where Colt SA's and the reproductions thereof are concerned. If you'll notice, the triggers of these revolvers are in the left side of the frame and trigger guard. So, right handed shooters have to be really careful to get their index fingers on the front of the trigger when they shoot and press straight rearward on the trigger(which can be somewhat difficult for those with short index fingers). Otherwise their index finger presses the right front edge of the trigger, putting leftward pressure on the revolver. Now consider what happens in the milliseconds of time after the sear breaks and the trigger slams into the left rear corner of its mortise (overtravel), and when the bullet exits the barrel. Can you see why so people complain that their SA's shoot left??

Why the invention of sights? Next time you're at a gun show or in a gun shop, look closely at the used guns with adjustable sights, I mean the guns that have obviously been shot a lot, and notice how many of them have their rear sights run way over to the right. It's easier to adjust a sight than to shoot hundreds or more rounds perfecting shooting technique.

But if you want to believe it's always the revolvers fault rather than yours, you are certainly welcome to do so, that's your prerogative.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by vancelw »

35 Whelen wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:31 pm
Ray wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 am Just like I said, some essobee would chime in with the inevitable operator error rigmarole......again, I counter with the why of the invention of adjustable sights.


A properly assembled revolver should shoot relatively close where windage is concerned. Think about it; If a straight barrel with a good crown is screwed into a straight, square receiver and the sights are centered on the receiver and the barrel, what, other than operator error, could possibly make a bullet go left or right of the sights??
If you think all revolvers sold today have ALL of those qualities.....sure....nobody but you knows how to shoot :lol:
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 35 Whelen »

vancelw wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:00 pm
35 Whelen wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:31 pm
Ray wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 am Just like I said, some essobee would chime in with the inevitable operator error rigmarole......again, I counter with the why of the invention of adjustable sights.


A properly assembled revolver should shoot relatively close where windage is concerned. Think about it; If a straight barrel with a good crown is screwed into a straight, square receiver and the sights are centered on the receiver and the barrel, what, other than operator error, could possibly make a bullet go left or right of the sights??
If you think all revolvers sold today have ALL of those qualities.....sure....nobody but you knows how to shoot :lol:
I never said all revolvers have those qualities, because they don't. I've owned some that didn't shoot worth a flip, as I mentioned earlier. I'm certainly not the only person who knows how to shoot... Some learn, some don't. :wink:
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Sixgun »

There are so many variables involved with getting a fixed sight revolver to shoot poa it would take a chapter to explain each one.

It all comes down to a couple of variables that must be tried first......shooter know how and a properly toleranced gun with ammo that meets those tolerances and that only works if your matching the rifling twist, weight of bullet and velocity.

Then there are external variables such as sunlight and wind with sunlight always wreaking havoc to point of impact.

You have to get to the point where you have a favorite load that shoots consistently...consistently...consistently...to the same part of the target...it don't matter where....just small groups............then...adjust your gun according to how Marlinman said.

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Griff »

The "smart-azzed" answer to your question is:
Rifle%20Shooting%20Errors.jpg
The variance in POI vs. POA has so many factors involved... that one either: lives with what the particular pistol gives you and learns what loads give you a fair approximation of good results; or modify the gun to regulate the sights to make POI the same as POA. The latter means you take ONE load... and regulate the gun to that particular load. It oftens involves turning the barrel, filing the front sight, enlarging the rear sight opening on one side or the other... or even a combination of the those.

I have 2 45 Colt Single Action Armys, and my son has 2 45 Colt Uberti single actions revolvers. All four have been regulated to shoot ONE particular load to POA.
I got extremely lucky in that it turns out I have two, maybe three loads that all four guns shoot the same. When I first regulated the 2 Colts, I simply bent the front sight to the left and filed 'em down. When each gun was tuned and/rebuilt by a professional... he adjusted the modified sights to present a factory profile and yet retained my POA-POI alignment. It was part of his "master gunfighter" tune... which at the time ran about $300... IIRC.

In buying any Single Action revolver, its a matter or "you pays your money and you takes your chances." I ain't read any of the above responses... so I don't know if I'm repeating the same info as someone else... but if not, you can ignore those, as they just ain't right! :twisted: :P
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

I understand elevation variations with different loads (what bullet/load is a SA "regulated" for?). Basically, I was wondering if Cimarron/Uberti revolvers were assembled well enough for the bullets to land somewhere close to what yer pointing at (some imports are not really good shooters. I had a Rossi 38 many years ago that was pretty crude and not real accurate)...

And as per Griff's chart, I suck more and more as I near 72... :cry:
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 35 Whelen »

mikld wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:09 am I understand elevation variations with different loads (what bullet/load is a SA "regulated" for?). Basically, I was wondering if Cimarron/Uberti revolvers were assembled well enough for the bullets to land somewhere close to what yer pointing at (some imports are not really good shooters. I had a Rossi 38 many years ago that was pretty crude and not real accurate)...

And as per Griff's chart, I suck more and more as I near 72... :cry:
It's been my experience that Uberti/Cimarron revolvers do shoot close to where you aim them. As far as being regulated, that would be difficult to say given the enormous range of loads that can be shot in these revolvers. I've found revolvers chambered in 45 Colt seem to have greater variations in elevation when changing bullet weights. My Uberti Frisco 45 Colt is a very accurate revolver, all the way out to 75 yds., but changing from a 250 to a 200 gr. bullet, even at similar velocities, makes quite a difference in POI. Conversely, I've not noticed this nearly as much in the .44 Special. Case in point-

My .44 Special practice load:

Image

..and the hunting load, some 200 fps faster:

Image

Another .44 Special with similar results. The practice loads:

Image

Image

A hunting load:

Image

Where fixed sight revolvers such as these are concerned, I regulate the sights for my hunting loads, but the thing to do if one is not a hunter is to regulate it for the load that will be used most.

I've had very similar experiences with a pair of Uberti Hombre .357's I own. The plinking loads and the hot rod loads shoot very similar points of impact.
Last edited by 35 Whelen on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Old Savage »

Good shooting. Looks like you know what you are doing with a single action.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Blaine »

Check your cyl....it could, probably, need reamed out to proper size. If it's too tight the bullet hits the rifling too narrow to be of much use.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 2ndovc »

Old Savage wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:07 pm Good shooting. Looks like you know what you are doing with a single action.
I'd Say!

I had similar results with the Artillery Model I mentioned. I've been looking at Bisley's lately. I'll pick up another soon, need a long barreled .357 Magnum.

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by marlinman93 »

Ray wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 am Just like I said, some essobee would chime in with the inevitable operator error rigmarole......again, I counter with the why of the invention of adjustable sights.
Adjustable sights are great! But most SAA pistols don't have them, and look stupid with them. I love my S&W revolvers with nice sights, but my SAA revolvers are fun shooters too. Just never liked the ones I've seen fitted with an adjustable rear sight.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by marlinman93 »

2ndovc wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:57 pm

I had similar results with the Artillery Model I mentioned. I've been looking at Bisley's lately. I'll pick up another soon, need a long barreled .357 Magnum.

jb 8)
I've always had issues with the Bisley grip myself. But it's not the gun's fault, it's an old injury to my right wrist. I have very little range of motion in my right wrist, so a Bisley grip tends to point the barrel downhill when I aim. I love the shape of the Bisley grip, but have to fight the grip position and hold the gun up higher to get it pointing on target.
I had two really nice shooting SAA Bisley gripped guns in .45 Colt and .32-20. I traded both to a friend who loves shooting them, and got standard grip SAA pistols in the same caliber from him. Both fell better when shooting, but the .32-20 isn't quite as accurate as the one I let go in the trade.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

OK fellers, lots of good info., basically I'm venturing into an area I've not tried before; SSA in 45 Colt w/fixed sights and was sorta/maybe just researching which for me is part of the fun. (I did the same when I got my first 1911). I've already got my eye on a mold and researched loads; 250 gr RNFP to around 750-800 fps! I have a couple 22 lr SAs and a Ruger SBH which are "traditional" SAs only in appearance, and I'm one to do a lot of thinkin' before I try something new (well most of the time. Ummm, sometimes. OK once in a while). I'm gonna find an FFL in town and order one (I saw Bud's Gun Shop has some at a good price).

Since I started this thread, I kinda feel I "own" it, so if you guys wanna argue, find another place to "debate each other's manhood"... :x

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 2ndovc »

The Bisleys definitely have a "Love it or Hate it" feel. I had two years ago that were both great shooters. A Ruger Vaquero in .44 Magnum and a Cimarron in .357 Mag with a 7 1/2" barrel that was surprisingly accurate with a 158 gr bullet and a medium powder charge. I'd have to look that one up.

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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by Old Savage »

My view Mike is that you have to give it a try. I shoot Smith's better but I have ended up with more SAs.
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by mikld »

Well, Cimarron Pistolero, 45 Colt, 4 5/8" bbl now on order. We'll see... :D

Now the funner part, researching bullets, brass and loads...
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Re: Cimarron SA 45 Colt.

Post by 35 Whelen »

I'll tell you the one thing I appreciated about the Pistolero, Pietta took the time to incorporate the replacable recoil shied in the frame.
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