Why do old 1894s shoot high?

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geobru
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Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by geobru »

A couple years ago, I picked up a circa 1908 Winchester 1894 in 32 spl. In order to get the POI down to reasonable levels, I changed the front sight from a .375 to a .5" sight. Since I had no history with this rifle, I shrugged it off as weird that a gun that old would not be configured with sights that would allow the shooter to hit minute of deer at reasonable distances.

Now fast dorward to today. I have my dad's circa 1903 1894 Winchester rifle in 30-30 on loan from my brother to see why it wouldn't eject the spent case after firing when there were cartridges in the magazine. (That turned out to be a case of 115 years of crud built up in the receiver.) When I shot it, it was hitting about 2.5" above the POA at 30 yards with he rear sight as low as it could go with the elevator. I moved the rear sight slider as low as it could go, and whittled the overage to 1.25" at 25 yards.

I do have the history of this rifle. My dad shot many deer with it, but the story I remember was one time he shot a sage rat with it that was peeking out of a piece of irrigation pipe. He shot it in the head at fairly close range. My dad was not a tweaker with his guns. He expected it to hit where he was pointing it, and as long as that happened, that was ok with him. As a kid, I remember checking to see if the gun was ready for hunting by shooting a half dozen rounds at a paper target. If it was still on from the year before, that was the end of practice.


My point is this: why was the POI of these rifles higher than the ability of the sights to adjust to be able to hit dead on at say, 50 yards with the original sights?

Have any of you had similar experiences?

Is factory ammunition loaded hotter now than it was back in the 1950s when my dad used this rifle? Could that be the reason that these two rifles both shot high with the stock sights?

Thoughts?


32 Spl on the left, 30-30 on the right.
1894 Winchesters 30-30 & 32 Spl.jpg
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by FWiedner »

It's my opinion that you are not using the original sights as intended.

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Blaine »

All my 30wcf levers have strung high as the barrel heats up. It's why I sight them in for the first cold shot. YMMV 8)
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by GunnyMack »

Time of flight is my thought.
Black powder burns RIGHT NOW, smokeless takes a bit longer. Black gets the bullet moving sooner.
That said, the gun is under recoil for a longer amount of time( albeit its milliseconds) so the bullet takes longer to get down the bore. Yes you get higher velocities from modern powders.
If you were to try black powder loads the sights would be ( at least closer)on. I read an article in Double Gun Journal about a guy working up loads for an express rifle. Not happy with POI from modern data/powders) he burned lots of powder of different flavors until he duplicated original black powder loads with 1 modern powder. IRRC it was one of the .500 British rounds.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Ray »

As late as the 1970s when I was learning to hunt, experienced hunters were still using old terms such as "use a fine bead" for a gun regulated as you describe....

If you could take your memory back in time and remember some of the small details you may have heard your dad give that same advice to you or your brother...

I remember also hearing "take a course bead" for one that shot low and, rarer "gee bead" or "ha bead" for windage correction.....
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by M. M. Wright »

I remember that my Dad always drew a "fine bead" in the bottom of the notch while I learned to take a sight picture with the top of the bead or blade level with the top of the rear sight. Makes a big difference in elevation. Too, big game rifles were usually regulated to place the bullet about 3 inches above the point of aim at 100 yards.
I have a 73 that shoots about a foot high at 50 yards. I think the front sight may just be worn off that much. Not really. My old eyes just have to see more of the front sight in order to sorta focus on it.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Besides sight picture & front sight damage, there's other reasons why the POA & POI may be "off".

Winchester regulated the Model 1894 sights at the time of manufacture using the ammo available at that time (i.e., the 1890's); most ammunition was upgraded (powder & projectile wise) somewhere in the mid 1920's, and modern ammo even more so.


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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Marvin S »

There was a smokeless and a black powder rear sight.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pisgah »

GunnyMack wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:13 am Time of flight is my thought.
Black powder burns RIGHT NOW, smokeless takes a bit longer. Black gets the bullet moving sooner.
That said, the gun is under recoil for a longer amount of time( albeit its milliseconds) so the bullet takes longer to get down the bore. Yes you get higher velocities from modern powders.
If you were to try black powder loads the sights would be ( at least closer)on. I read an article in Double Gun Journal about a guy working up loads for an express rifle. Not happy with POI from modern data/powders) he burned lots of powder of different flavors until he duplicated original black powder loads with 1 modern powder. IRRC it was one of the .500 British rounds.
This sounds reasonable, but for the fact that the .30-30 and .32 Special have always been smokeless powder rounds. Much more likely is an improper use of the sights. That front bead needs to be buried right down in the bottom of the notch for shots at less than 100 yards. That is the meaning of the phrase often seen in old writings -- "taking a fine bead". If the original poster tries that he may even shoot a bit low at 30 yards.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Griff »

Both .30-30 and .32 Special were originally smokeless powder cartridges. The 32 Special was developed with the idea that it wouldn't suffer the ill effects that the .30WCF did when reloading with black powder.

What sight picture are you using? Bury the front bead down in the rear notch and hold about 3" low from the bull. Different elevators result in different POI... even when you're using the same notch as on another similar rifle.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by geobru »

Griff wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:04 pm Both .30-30 and .32 Special were originally smokeless powder cartridges. The 32 Special was developed with the idea that it wouldn't suffer the ill effects that the .30WCF did when reloading with black powder.
What sight picture are you using? Bury the front bead down in the rear notch and hold about 3" low from the bull. Different elevators result in different POI... even when you're using the same notch as on another similar rifle.
The sight picture that I use is a fine bead. That's how my dad taught me and that's the way we shot with open sights. When he told the story of the sage rat, he said he pulled down on the head, took a fine bead and fired and he hit what he was aiming at. That would have been in the late 40's to early 50's as far as ammo vintage.

The rear sight is sitting on the barrel, the slider is adjusted as low as it can go without burying the fine notch behind the main sight body, and when I aim, the front sight is as low as it can go in the notch.


These are the sights:
Front sight 1.jpg
Rear sight 2.jpg
This is the target I used. I had to remove the sight to loosen the screw on the slider on the sight, so I was tapping it into the dovetail as I shot it. That's the reason for the horizontal streaming.

My daughter was with me and wanted to shoot her grandpa's old gun. She had never shot a 30-30 before and she shot the 3 to the left side of the target! Not bad in my opinion!

I shot the 7th shot 20 minutes after shooting the others and the sun was low in the sky and had turned a fiery golden orange, making it really difficult for me to see the sights.
1894 30-30 target 071218.jpg
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Nath »

Modern ammo is tamer than of old, longer in the barrel, bullet leaves later at a slight recoil induced elevation.

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pitchy »

My 1919 30-30, someone filled down the buck horn so ya gotta set the bead low plus button maged it i think for accuracy.
Too bad my eyes are getting so bad i can`t hardly see the bead in that notch. :roll:

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Marvin S »

Pitchy wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:13 pm My 1919 30-30, someone filled down the buck horn so ya gotta set the bead low plus button maged it i think for accuracy.
Too bad my eyes are getting so bad i can`t hardly see the bead in that notch. :roll:

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pitchy »

Well now ya got me, was that sight a old sight?
Looks like its been there a while.

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by GunnyMack »

What bullet weight were you shooting geobru? Could be the sights were regulated for lighter bullets.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pitchy »

By golly your right Marvins, did a search and that`s it thanks.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Marvin S »

Glad it worked out. There were a multitude of different rear and front sights used being different styles and heights. Smokeless and Blackpowder heights.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by geobru »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:26 pm What bullet weight were you shooting geobru? Could be the sights were regulated for lighter bullets.

I was using 170 grain bullets. Lighter bullets would be higher yet!

I guess I assumed that 170 grain was the go to bullet for the 30-30...
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by M. M. Wright »

Pitchy, the sight on my 86 looks just like that. I always thought it had been filed down.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Nath »

geobru wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:26 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:26 pm What bullet weight were you shooting geobru? Could be the sights were regulated for lighter bullets.

I was using 170 grain bullets. Lighter bullets would be higher yet!

I guess I assumed that 170 grain was the go to bullet for the 30-30...
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by geobru »

Back in the 50's, what would have been the most common bullet wright for a 30-30?

I know that there is about a 3.5" difference in the POI at 100 yards between 180 and 150 grain bullets. The 150's shoot higher.
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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by Pete44ru »

geobru wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:11 am
Back in the 50's, what would have been the most common bullet wright for a 30-30?

Most .30-30 shooters have long fallen into one of two camps: the 150gr crowd & the 170gr crowd (I'm in the 170gr crowd).

There's no real reason - just "druthers". . :roll:

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by J Miller »

I've been trying to stay outta this thread cos there are sooooooo very many variables.

However, having owned and used many Winchester 1894 / 94s I can say I've never had one shoot high.
Most of mine have been chambered for the 30 W.C.F. (30-30) although I do have one in .45 Colt. I've used them with the crude factory sights, peep sights with sourdough front sights, and on my first SRC a Marbles short carbine sight with the original pinned in barrel front sight.
Nary a one shot high.

I was exposed to the "fine bead" hold in my late teens when a guy let me shoot his Marlin 336 44 Mag. I couldn't hit anything with it. Use a fine bead he said, but he never told me what a fine bead was. I learned that here in this thread, really great to learn things.

Over the years I developed the technique of putting the bead in the bottom of the rear sight notch and using a 6:00 hold on my targets. That works great for me. That also carries over to the peep sights, so there is less things for me to remember.
I had people try to get me to use the "bead is the bull" hold, but to me that is just plain stupid. The bead covers up the target and if you can't see the target, how the heck can you hit it?

Sadly I have never owned a 94 rifle. They've all been carbines or trappers. I hope to rectify that before I do the dirt nap thing. But based on my other lever guns with rifle barrels, recent generations of rifles have sights that are basically decorations. Front sights way too high or with beads so huge they reflect so much light back in your face you can't see the target, or the bead is so huge there is no way to do a precision sight picture. My 20" Marlin 1894 Cowboy was like that. I had to change out the front sight to a shorter one with a smaller bead. Eventually it will get a Lyman 66 receiver sight and a sourdough front sight.

As for the 94s, or lever guns in general, stringing the shots as they get warm, I've missed that too. I Think maybe only one did that and I'm not sure about that.
What I am sure about is as the magazine empties out the balance of the rifle / carbine changes and it becomes muzzle light. At that point the muzzle wants to climb and if the shooter doesn't hold it down it will string the shots.
My 94 AE Trapper in .45 Colt is horrible that way. It's 1st year production with the skinny barrel and it's only balanced when the magazine is full. As it empties, the muzzle want's to rise drastically.

So, what I've just said might have no bearing on anything, or maybe it does. But that's what I've found.

Oh one more thing, what Pete44ru said about bullet weights is so true. I've been using the 150 grain bullets in my 30-30s for over 40 years. I've also tried the 170s and 130s as well as few 110gr M1 Carbine bullets, but my go to ammo is 150 gr.
I suppose if I were to actually go hunting for something bigger than deer I would try the 170gr bullets, but that hasn't happened yet.

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Re: Why do old 1894s shoot high?

Post by OldWin »

I've had em that shot high, but it's always been carbines with a pinned insert. These sights got filed or worn down and can cause serious elevation problems.
The 30wcf should suffer the least cause it's a flatter shooting cartridge than the other offerings of the day.
While your rifle wears what appear to be the original sights, the front is quite worn and rounded. For me at least, it would make shooting difficult. These rifles should be zeroed with a fine bead and 6 o'clock hold. Light and an individuals eyes can make quite a difference so try it in varying conditions to see if your elevation changes drastically.
If not, search gun shows or online for an original front sight that gives the height and compare it to yours.
Then measure the amount your impact needs to change.
Then multiply your sight radius, times the amount the impact needs to move. Divide that by the range to the target in inches. This will give you how much taller your front sight needs to be.

Oh, and check for muzzle wear or damage. I had an M1 carbine that would shoot very tight groups, but they were a foot to the left at 25yds.
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