Cannabis Oil

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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by stretch »

It's falling on deaf ears. :wink:
Yeah.... but I had to say it! :lol:

-Stretch
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Beaker »

stretch wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:40 am
These safety questions require years of testing, research and the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars (or more) for every drug compound released to the market. After a drug product is released to market strict monitoring must be performed to document and study adverse effects such as adverse patient reactions, various medical complaints, lack of efficacy complaints, etc. These complaints and findings a required to be reported to the FDA.
You are correct in all of that, Beaker.

Many of those studies are funded in the end by Big Pharma. They pay the universities to come up with
the results that they want. Some of the results of those studies are "tweaked." The studies conducted
for Zoloft, Prozac, and Vioxx are three that come immediately to mind. Homicidal ideation for the first
two - (and other psychotropic drugs), and heart attacks for Vioxx were all known side effects, but the
results were deliberately misreported so that the drugs could go to market. Greed trumps the well-being
of American citizens. (Do a little bit of research about the current organic vs. synthetic insulin scam if
you don't believe me.) The penalties for misreporting are simply a cost of doing business, and Big Pharma
can well afford the fines. No one goes to jail.

Note that such studies for cannabis are illegal to conduct. How very convenient for Big Pharma! :shock:
Cannabis has been known for decades to ease pain and restore appetite in cancer patients undergoing
chemotherapy. It's also very effective in the treatment of long-term chronic pain with many fewer
side effects than narcotics. It's also impossible to overdose on marijuana, unlike alcohol, codeine,
oxycontin, methadone, morphine, heroin, fentanyl, etc.. It's virtually certain that the sort of studies
you talk about would confirm all of this; but as long as the Big Pharma lobby has a chokehold on
Congress and the shareholders' greed continues to make profit a bigger priority than national health,
the needed studies will never happen. There's no corporate money in an herb that sick people can
grow in their own homes, so there will be no funding for transparent, independent studies to prove
or disprove it's effectiveness.

-Tom




Tom, You are absolutely wrong in your assertion that testing on cannabis is illegal to perform, that is simply not true. What is true is that research on cannabis, like other Schedule I controlled substances, is very strictly regulated and controlled. This does not mean it is illegal to perform though. For your other assertions and conspiracy theories please show credible documentation or evidence to support your assertions. If you would do some real literature research, as I Pointed out to Blaine in the above previous posts, you would find that very many drugs are in fact derived for biological sources such as animal extracts and botanicals. The reason for this is that nature (God) is the best organic chemist and often synthesizing active drug compounds is too difficult or too expensive than extracting them from biological sources. Big Pharma derives many pharmaceuticals this way, so your assertion that Big Pharma is conspiring to keep cannabis and cannabis derived products of the market is ludicrous. Have there been abuses by drug companies? Of course, that is why the pharma industry is by far the highest and tightest regulated industry in the U.S. Mistakes in oral and especially parenteral (injectable) manufacturing has, and continues to have the potential to kill a lot of people very quickly. Because of the past mistakes and potential for harm, the industry has the utmost in safety and quality regulations imposed on it. This is why drug cost so much; due to the hundreds of millions or more dollars it requires to do the R&D, safety and efficacy testing that the law requires. Keep in mind the U.S. government only does basic research. More advanced research and development is required by the innovator or marketer to bring a drug product to market. The burden of proof is on the innovator to prove to the governments (FDA) satisfaction that a drug product is safe and effective for it's indicated use. The FDA only reviews the data submitted in a NDA (new drug application) and inspects the manufacturing facility and process before it gives approval. The FDA does not generate data on it's own, but will do testing on it's own to verify data as warranted. If for any reason the FDA believes the data is insufficient or incomplete to prove the safety and efficacy, it will require the innovator to perform additional testing and submit the data for review before the FDA will grant approval to market the drug product. While the system is very good and rigorous, it is not foolproof. Occasionally things do slip through and adverse reactions and chronic effects come to light after a drug product is released to market. Rarer still is what you assert that a firm withholds adverse data from the FDA to gain approval. Doing so constitutes defrauding the Federal Government. This may lead to the withdrawal of approval by the FDA of the marketer's NDA approval and the forced withdraw of the product from the market. Fines, imprisonment and banishment from the industry by the company and its officers and guilty employees, the declaring of the drug product inventory as adulterated and misbranded and therefore subject to seizure and destruction by the FDA and U.S. Marshall Service and the companies manufacturing assets. These penalties give very strong incentives for a company to obey the Federal drug laws as almost all reputable companies do.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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I'm not really mocking you, Beaker or the FDA, but if aspirin went through the "process" today, it would never be allowed. Sir, you're demanding I conduct "proper" research. I am demanding that you find one death from pot overdose. There aren't any. 8)
A couple of my past meds "burnt" a hole in my stomach and I was bleeding and had constant reflux. ;) THAT sure wasn't in the fine print.
Last edited by Blaine on Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Beaker »

BlaineG wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 pm I'm not really mocking you, Beaker or the FDA, but if aspirin went through the "process" today, it would never be allowed. Sir, you're demanding "proper" research. I am demanding that you find one death from pot overdose. There aren't any. 8)
Blaine you are wrong. There are documented cases. The data is hidden from you on the internet.


https://www.facebook.com/27822668589712 ... 41/?type=3


Also, aspirin would be approved albeit the process today would take much long and be much more expensive, in inflation adjusted dollars than prior to World War I.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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Beaker wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:55 pm
BlaineG wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 pm I'm not really mocking you, Beaker or the FDA, but if aspirin went through the "process" today, it would never be allowed. Sir, you're demanding "proper" research. I am demanding that you find one death from pot overdose. There aren't any. 8)
Blaine you are wrong. There are documented cases. The data is hidden from you on the internet.


https://www.facebook.com/27822668589712 ... 41/?type=3
Ok, end of show...Provide something beside a meme or an aluminum foil-wrapped conspiricy theory.
IOW, there are "documented" cases that you know all about, but "I" will never see. Got it. :roll:
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by stretch »

For your other assertions and conspiracy theories please show credible documentation or evidence to support your assertions

Here ya go. There are many more articles on this subject. Keep looking and there's lots and lots more.
But these two sources are credible and were easy to find. Note that the drug makers always negotiate their way out of
real punishment. But that's the way our legal system works at the moment, even at lower levels. "Let's
Make a Deal!" And that's after decades of "confidential" settlements.


When Eli Lilly found out that their wonder drug caused suicidal ideation in an unacceptable number of patients,
in some cases they gave them another drug in order to calm them and get them through the clinical trial. Which is
a VERY BIG NO-NO in a clinical trial, and unutterably irresponsible if you don't include such a warning to
physicians who prescribe the drug. Then they kept minimizing and denying the side effects until the FDA made them put
a "black box" warning on the drug. That's 26 years after they KNEW about the problem! By that time, all
of the R&D was long since paid for.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian ... 7.weekend1

Concerning Vioxx:

From the NY TIMES:

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/busi ... ecall.html
The data that ultimately persuaded the company to withdraw the drug indicated 15 cases of heart attack, stroke or blood clots per thousand people each year over three years, compared with 7.5 such events per thousand patients taking a placebo.

But the company never directly tested the theory that it used to explain the worrisome results of the clinical trial in 2000. Merck was criticized for what some charged was playing down the drug's possible heart risks; in one case, it received a warning letter from the Food and Drug Administration for minimizing "potentially serious cardiovascular findings." And when outside researchers found evidence indicating Vioxx might pose dangers, Merck dismissed their data.
I had to rush my ex to the hospital after her first dose of Vioxx. Yep - cardiovascular event symptoms.
She had to be given an antidote.

Big Pharma simply cannot be trusted where such huge profit is at stake. And the FDA doesn't look hard
enough into things these days.

-Stretch
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

From DEA website https://www.dea.gov/druginfo/drug_data_ ... ijuana.pdf
Bullet point #8
Overdose effects: No death from overdose of marijuana has been reported.

Just a note. Personally I have never used marijuana, and have no desire to ever start and would never promote it's use. I have several friends who use "pakalolo" medicinally for pain management who have been trying to get me to try it to manage my chronic pain. Medicinal use is legal here but I don't want to start smoking. I am very sensitive to opiates including synthetic opiates like Tramadol which makes me nauseous, and the withdrawal symptoms are crazy with a week of insomnia, mood swings, and crazy thoughts. I use Meloxican and Gabapetin regularly with acetaminophen, and Tixanidine as needed which takes the edge of the pain but does not eliminate pain. At least these medications I take are not addictive, at least not to me..
Last edited by Ji in Hawaii on Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Beaker »

BlaineG wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:01 pm
Beaker wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:55 pm
BlaineG wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 pm I'm not really mocking you, Beaker or the FDA, but if aspirin went through the "process" today, it would never be allowed. Sir, you're demanding "proper" research. I am demanding that you find one death from pot overdose. There aren't any. 8)
Blaine you are wrong. There are documented cases. The data is hidden from you on the internet.


https://www.facebook.com/27822668589712 ... 41/?type=3
Ok, end of show...Provide something beside a meme or an aluminum foil-wrapped conspiricy theory.
IOW, there are "documented" cases that you know all about, but "I" will never see. Got it. :roll:


Blaine,

Sorry I thought you would appreciate the meme given your sense of humor. I apologize if you did not think it was funny.

As far as the data goes, I cannot access the relevant sites on my home computer as I do not have personal access as I explained to you in above posts. Also the you are making a logic error: The lack of data to you or your ability find data in no way proves that something (namely cannabis overdoses) has never happened as I also explained above in previous posts. It only proves you have not found the data. Also as mentioned earlier what dosage form are you considering? How are you defining "overdose"? Are you eliminating fatal accidents that occur when under the influence?


On a side but related issue how do you feel about legalizing coca or coca leaves for personal use? Native indians have used it for for centuries as a herbal medicine and anesthetic. What about crude cocaine extracted from coca leaves? Remember it used to be added quite often to cough syrups, home remedies, what we would consider today to be over the counter (OTC) medicines and in soft drinks such as Coca-Cola, etc. Where should we as a society ( and therefore the government) draw the line between readily available OTC medicines, Rx only (prescription medicines) or totally prohibited substances such as cocaine, THC and related substances? Do you advocate no restrictions at all for any substance being any substance can be purchased legally and without a prescription for any use such as cocaine, THC, aspirin, opium or heroin, etc as many people do?
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Sixgun »

Donald Trump has said it several times...."whenever you are bewildered about a decision on a subject that just don't make sense, follow the money trail and you will find the answer." .....or words to that effect.---6
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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On a side but related issue how do you feel about legalizing coca or coca leaves for personal use? Native indians have used it for for centuries as a herbal medicine and anesthetic. What about crude cocaine extracted from coca leaves? Remember it used to be added quite often to cough syrups, home remedies, what we would consider today to be over the counter (OTC) medicines and in soft drinks such as Coca-Cola, etc. Where should we as a society ( and therefore the government) draw the line between readily available OTC medicines, Rx only (prescription medicines) or totally prohibited substances such as cocaine, THC and related substances? Do you advocate no restrictions at all for any substance being any substance can be purchased legally and without a prescription for any use such as cocaine, THC, aspirin, opium or heroin, etc as many people do?
Ok, I thought I was done :lol: We are talking about pot and only about pot. Please don't deflect by adding other drugs and issues into the conversation. And as I already said, NOT talking about idiots that kill themselves while high. (sarcasm on) You sound like the script for the 30s film Reefer Madness or maybe Our Government saying for decades that agent orange was harmless. Etc, etc.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by 765x53 »

If you can grow it in your garden or gather it from a road ditch, how can it be illegal?
Behavior is what needs to be controlled.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by Beaker »

BlaineG wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:54 pm
On a side but related issue how do you feel about legalizing coca or coca leaves for personal use? Native indians have used it for for centuries as a herbal medicine and anesthetic. What about crude cocaine extracted from coca leaves? Remember it used to be added quite often to cough syrups, home remedies, what we would consider today to be over the counter (OTC) medicines and in soft drinks such as Coca-Cola, etc. Where should we as a society ( and therefore the government) draw the line between readily available OTC medicines, Rx only (prescription medicines) or totally prohibited substances such as cocaine, THC and related substances? Do you advocate no restrictions at all for any substance being any substance can be purchased legally and without a prescription for any use such as cocaine, THC, aspirin, opium or heroin, etc as many people do?
Ok, I thought I was done :lol: We are talking about pot and only about pot. Please don't deflect by adding other drugs and issues into the conversation. And as I already said, NOT talking about idiots that kill themselves while high. (sarcasm on) You sound like the script for the 30s film Reefer Madness or maybe Our Government saying for decades that agent orange was harmless. Etc, etc.

Blaine,

I am not trying to deflect the issue, I am trying to get to the heart of the discussion. How much freedom as individuals should we give up as a trade off for safety or public safety by allowing the government to "protect the public"? Where do we draw the line between freedom and safety? Should the government regulate substances at all and let the user or buyer beware? At what point is a substance harmful or dangerous enough to be regulated if at all? If it warrants regulation, how much regulation? Or put another way, how much government intrusion is too much or how helpful is the government for us? These are rhetorical questions and there is no real "right" answer that everyone will agree on but this is the heart of the marijuana, drug legalization debate, gun control debate, etc.

While most government regulatory process start out with good intentions, such as in the drug industry, by keeping "harmful" products off the market to avoid hurting or killing people, I have watched in dismay for decades while increasing burdensome and useless overregulation drives up the cost of drugs many fold in order to comply with these regulations. The result of the cost increases drives the prices so high that many people, especially the elderly and poor, must go without using drugs that would be beneficial to them. This also causes them harm and in many cases can end up causing a needless or premature death. This is a classic example of the law of unintended consequences: We try to prevent harm to people in one way, but in doing so end up harming them in other ways.

My personal opinion is that marijuana is approximately closest to alcohol in its effects on the body and therefore should likely be regulated as such as many states are starting to do. This in no way means I endorse using either as I personally have no use for either one. If a company wants to sell pot or CBD oil as such, that is fine with me as long as it is pure and unadulterated or not otherwise mislabeled or branded. But if a company wants to promote it as a "medicine" or drug of any type for healing or altering the body's functions, pot or CBD oil should be regulated as any other OTC or Rx drug and subject to the same approval process.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

Post by oldAG »

I stumbled on this thread from a re-direct from another shooting forum. The general discussion here is taking a somewhat different direction from the other site.

It is a bit depressing to see, again and again, reference to "the powers that be" saying that the medicinal properties of cannabis oils (Cannabidiol) need much more research before it can be contemplated that such valuable properties exist, or can be shown to be effective, if at all.
In the State of Israel there are Doctors of Medicine who have been researching those properties since the mid 1960's. Their research has been published, but it seems that too many people don't want to listen.
Growing "the crop" is managed with great care because the final product/s are specifically prescribed to individuals who require a script that is unique to them. The drug stores are able to dispense those scripts. A major hospital manages patients who (used to) have severe epilepsy that is now controlled very well. Other maladies are similarly managed well.

The truth is out there. It's a matter of educating the nay-sayers, or perhaps more importantly, slapping down "big pharma's" hold on the drug industry.
Take a bit of time and google this : - cannabidiol research israel
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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I tried this other brand yesterday......started it around noon......by 4 pm I was soooo tired I did what I rarely do....drank coffee in the afternoon to stay awake. I slept like a baby last night......It was like taking a couple of Valiums......unlike the other brand which calmed me but did not put me to sleep.

That was an excellent read that Stretch posted the link on. .....the Prozac thingy.............it's getting hard to believe what the docs tell ya.....are they trying to make you well or just want the kickbacks.---6
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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I agree that the Big Pharma tries (and succeeds) to squash any competitors.

That's one more reason to get the government out of the 'drug licensing' business (aside from the fundamental moral reason that people/patients should be free to try whatever THEY want to try - not what some big corporation and/or bureaucrat decides is 'ok', AND the fundamental legal reason that there is no permission granted in the Constitution for our federal government to regulate much of anything, unless one stretches the intent of 'interstate commerce' ridiculously).
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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:P The OT was cannabis oil. Pot was a logical and natural segue. All other drugs have no place in the conversation. Shadow studies that we mere mortals are not allowed to see? Whatever. Just sayin'. :lol:
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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oldAG wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:10 pm I stumbled on this thread from a re-direct from another shooting forum. The general discussion here is taking a somewhat different direction from the other site.

It is a bit depressing to see, again and again, reference to "the powers that be" saying that the medicinal properties of cannabis oils (Cannabidiol) need much more research before it can be contemplated that such valuable properties exist, or can be shown to be effective, if at all.
In the State of Israel there are Doctors of Medicine who have been researching those properties since the mid 1960's. Their research has been published, but it seems that too many people don't want to listen.
Growing "the crop" is managed with great care because the final product/s are specifically prescribed to individuals who require a script that is unique to them. The drug stores are able to dispense those scripts. A major hospital manages patients who (used to) have severe epilepsy that is now controlled very well. Other maladies are similarly managed well.

The truth is out there. It's a matter of educating the nay-sayers, or perhaps more importantly, slapping down "big pharma's" hold on the drug industry.
Take a bit of time and google this : - cannabidiol research israel
That is the sort of research I like to see. Natural products should be looked at with an open mind. There are products which can be created by nature (Our Creator in my mind) which we cannot. Warfarin is one of many. There is an anti-breast cancer drug which is isolated from the needles of the Pacific Yew tree. Humans can't synthesize that to my knowledge. There are many natural products which we can use. It is sort of stupid to avoid several classes of products which could possibly have medicinal properties just because someone might use them recreationally. By that sort of warped logic, we should not even use alcohol to clean anything because some folks enjoy using another type of alcohol recreationally. Warped self serving logic.

I am not suggesting that we promote the recreational uses, but I AM suggesting that we should be smart enough to realize that prohibition doesn't work. If you don't want someone to use a natural product recreationally, then try to show them a better way. If you can't, then you might want to re-evaluate your beliefs and grow stronger in your beliefs, and try again. I do believe that some moderation in the use of natural products is a good idea.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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By the way, don't bother trying to give me the natural is safe baloney. Rattlesnakes are as natural as can be. Jimsonweed is natural, and one product from it has medicinal use. If you try to use the plant recreationally, it might kill you. Not everything which is natural is safe for consumption.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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piller wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:21 pm By the way, don't bother trying to give me the natural is safe baloney. Rattlesnakes are as natural as can be. Jimsonweed is natural, and one product from it has medicinal use. If you try to use the plant recreationally, it might kill you. Not everything which is natural is safe for consumption.

Jimsonweed...Not pot.Jimsonweed can be nasty stuff.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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piller wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:21 pm By the way, don't bother trying to give me the natural is safe baloney. Rattlesnakes are as natural as can be. Jimsonweed is natural, and one product from it has medicinal use. If you try to use the plant recreationally, it might kill you. Not everything which is natural is safe for consumption.
I don't think most people really know what they would be willing to do to save the their families life or what you would do if you lived with chronic pain, thank God I only have one of those but again if you've never lived in chronic pain you just don't understand it or what you are willing to do to live with it. I'd rather not live the rest of my life on Fentanyl and you want to talk about things killing you....
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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A product from Jimsonweed gives relief from chronic pain from a damaged heart. I am for finding uses for natural products. Heck, rotten sweet clover hay gave us warfarin. I just don't accept the natural is safe BS. Some natural things are safe, and some natural things are deadly.
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Re: Cannabis Oil

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piller wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:01 am A product from Jimsonweed gives relief from chronic pain from a damaged heart. I am for finding uses for natural products. Heck, rotten sweet clover hay gave us warfarin. I just don't accept the natural is safe BS. Some natural things are safe, and some natural things are deadly.
Pillar, You are exactly right.
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