Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

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mickbr
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Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

Sorry to sound like a newb with this, but I can't find much specific info on the net about it. Also started the 38 special in a lever for self defense. Thought I would ask about the other end of the scale....
Rifle centrefires the expectation is folks fall over with a centre of mass shot...7.62x39, 308, even 223. In contract to handguns where its fire until they fall over. But what about 357 hot loads in carbine, say pushing 1800fps with decent bullets, 1400ftlbs. Are we into rifle type effect where bad guys fall right over?
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by JimT »

"One shot stops" are the mythological holy grail.
The pursuit of such is a waste of time and effort.
A person who is considering defensive use of a firearm is much better off if they pursue proper training. And not just "taking a course" but repeated training along with constant use of the firearm.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by JerryB »

I keep swc bullets over some Unique in 38 spl cases in my Rossi 92 carbine. I have not shot anybody yet, but there are some here that have killed a lot of deer and other game with the .357 carbines.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by piller »

Due to adrenalin, illegal drugs, and will power, any attacker may have any, a combination of these, or none of them. That makes for 1 shot stops being totally unlikely to be consistent. Even animals hit with a bullet will not react the same way every time. Practice, train, and be ready to shoot again. There is that old Comanche story of the Blackfoot warrior who they attacked. He more than held his own until one of the Comanche got behind him and cut his head almost off with a hatchet/tomahawk or maybe a long headed fighting lance. The body fell, stood back up, and took some wild swings with the long knife in hand before falling down dead. That warrior just refused to quit. I heard the story from an old Cherokee historian who knew my cousin. My cousin brought the white eagle back to the Cherokee People. The Cherokee and the Blackfoot People have reservations which are close. Of course, the story might have been just a story.

One of the Dalton gang survived 38 gunshot wounds in a single gunfight. That is historical fact and easily researched.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by gamekeeper »

You can find instances of the .25acp producing one shot kills and .44 magnum not producing one shot kills, the .357 magnum from a carbine is one heck of a defensive round but the magazine and lever are there for a purpose.
I like your thinking though.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Pisgah »

The problem with the "one shot stop" is that even though it has been discussed for decades ad infinitum, no one has yet really even defined what it is.

All I know is, anyone hit center mass with a shot from a .357 carbine will quickly lose interest in whatever he's been doing.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by piller »

Unfortunately, you are totally correct about no real definition of one shot stops. As for being hit center mass, there are still a few things which can factor in. However, a .357 Mag does do a lot of damage, and that damage cannot be totally overlooked. Even a perp on Angel Dust will react to being hit by a .357 Mag. 1 hit may not override the Angel Dust's effects on the brain, but the body will have to shut down soon after that kind of damage. How soon is anyone's guess. A couple of quick followup shots and there will be too much damage to override.
A perp who is not on any drugs' and is not angry or suicidal should lose all motor function quickly. Of course, the disruption of oxygen and blood flow tends to stop humans much faster than it does animals. Usually!
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

Thanks for the replies. I probably worded the question wrong but I think folks get what I was aiming at. I am newb to 357 but lifelong hunter, not necessarily an always successful one though. high speed centrefires kill a different way than handguns, as we know. I was curious which side of wounding 357 mag at high speed falls closer to. For SD whether it translates to the incapacitation say the military finds acceptable in 223 and 308. But that's probably hard to find evidence on for this calibre. As others say its in the category of fairly nasty holes, that's probably good enough for me 8)
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mad trapper »

Ive got a friend, and his son answered an add in the local newspaper, two big screen TVs, $300.00.
He called the number, guy said to meet him behind the abandoned warehouse on the south side of town, bring cash only.
So he showed up, guy leaning up against the wall of an abandoned building, calls out, you got the cash, he said yes, then two more guys grabbed him from behind.
He struggled with the three guys, he ended up against the wall, down, with these guys piled up on top of him.
His Dad said he had his CCW 357 DA revolver on his side, he was able to pull it with one hand and fire one shot, point blank into the guy closest to and on top of him.
The bullet passed through all three guys.
He was not able to aim, just fire one shot in desperation.
They all went down, it didnt kill any of them, but they never got back up.
Police came, sent them to the hospital, one guy has to wear a bag for the rest of his life, but they all survived.
Police took the revolver from my friends son, and took his CCW license, they said he used the gun to attempt to buy stolen property.
If they got control of him, they would have taken the cash, and probably would have found the revolver also.
Like he said, they all went down, screaming in pain, didnt kill them, but they never got back up.
So he had a one shot stop with a revolver in his situation.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Blaine »

guy said to meet him behind the abandoned warehouse on the south side of town, bring cash only.
:shock: :roll:
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by claybob86 »

BlaineG wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:48 pm
guy said to meet him behind the abandoned warehouse on the south side of town, bring cash only.
:shock: :roll:
Sorta what I was thinkin...
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

Shot three guys , so they were laying directly on top one another as well as on top of him??
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by FWiedner »

JimT wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:09 pm "One shot stops" are the mythological holy grail.
The pursuit of such is a waste of time and effort.
A person who is considering defensive use of a firearm is much better off if they pursue proper training. And not just "taking a course" but repeated training along with constant use of the firearm.
This.

Even a one-shot DRT on a game animal is frequently a matter of momentary physiology. Why take chances?

I still remember SSgt Houle standing behind me growling "Shoot him again."

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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by GunnyMack »

Having lived in a slug hunting state for many years and shooting many many deer with slugs I can say that even a .730" hole thru both lungs and even hearts will not stop a 125 lbs critter in its tracks.i can remember a spike buck a long time ago that went more than 200 yards with a slug through both lungs. However if ya put a 40 grain .22lr into a deer's brain pan then its lights out.
Center mass is to take out the vascular system, lungs heart major blood vessels, yep adrenaline keeps them on their feet but if you disrupt the nervous center, brain, spine then the magical ' one shot stop' happens. Or you need to shoot for structure, bone like hip will drop a human. Dangerous game guides tell you to keep shooting until empty or the animal stops moving, I'd say humans are dangerous, don't count on one shot stops.
Now this is all well and good,but this day and age- just make sure you have your legal team on speed dial, cuz you know some scumbag ambulance chaser is going to get involved!
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by AJMD429 »

JerryB wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:00 pm. . . . I have not shot anybody yet. . . .
.....yet.....

:shock: :lol:
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:27 am Having lived in a slug hunting state for many years and shooting many many deer with slugs I can say that even a .730" hole thru both lungs and even hearts will not stop a 125 lbs critter in its tracks.i can remember a spike buck a long time ago that went more than 200 yards with a slug through both lungs. However if ya put a 40 grain .22lr into a deer's brain pan then its lights out.
Center mass is to take out the vascular system, lungs heart major blood vessels, yep adrenaline keeps them on their feet but if you disrupt the nervous center, brain, spine then the magical ' one shot stop' happens. Or you need to shoot for structure, bone like hip will drop a human. Dangerous game guides tell you to keep shooting until empty or the animal stops moving, I'd say humans are dangerous, don't count on one shot stops.
Now this is all well and good,but this day and age- just make sure you have your legal team on speed dial, cuz you know some scumbag ambulance chaser is going to get involved!
Another reason I prefer a shotgun...
yup I had medium game run a ways with slow slugs through them as well.I'd consider calibres like 270 or 308 faster stoppers than 12ga for the record. A fast centrefire will electrocute hogs with boileroom shots. I think the thread title I chose was not good though. Should have said "357 carbine more like rifle stopping power or handgun?" The one shot stop was alluding to battle rounds, centre of mass reasonably expected to stop an enemy doing further harm.
Last edited by mickbr on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mad trapper »

mickbr wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:50 pm Shot three guys , so they were laying directly on top one another as well as on top of him??
Yes, not in perfect alignment, but the bullet passed through all of them, hitting different parts of their bodies.
Hope im saying that right.

I love 357/38 special, but due to where I live, I carry a 44 mag lever rifle / ruger super blackhawk.
I load 44 special when close to civilization, and 44 mag when out in the boonies.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

mad trapper wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:29 am
Yes, not in perfect alignment, but the bullet passed through all of them, hitting different parts of their bodies.
Hope im saying that right.
Different parts of their bodies, but all 3 went straight down from the one bullet and didn't rise again? That's impressive x 3.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mad trapper »

Yes, at point blank range, with factory ammo, bullet probably didnt have time to expand.
357 mag is a deadly round, and if you handload for it, even better.
Then fire it from a long barrel, it becomes an entirely different cartridge.
General Patton carried a S&W 357 mag revolver during WWII, he called it his killing machine.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

mad trapper wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 am Yes, at point blank range, with factory ammo, bullet probably didnt have time to expand.
Seriously bud that's a hell of a story for your first 6 posts. Let me get this straight.Your guy meets someone at 'the abandoned warehouse in town' three guys pile on top of him, he shoots up and these guys are lined up enough to all 3 get drilled with the shot, they drop permanently to one shot, yet none get killed. The bullet cleared at least two bodies without expanding because it didn't have time to. You know the closer you are the more the bullet expands due to higher velocity right?
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mad trapper »

This happened about six or seven years back, mutual friend/coworker called me and told me about it.
He said the bullet passed through all three bodies, they all dropped to the ground, and stayed there.
Now I dont know what type of factory ammo he had in the revolver, but it passed through all three of them.
Im just assuming the bullet didnt expand, or how much I dont know, it was able to pass through all three of them, maybe it could expand with a hot factory defensive round.
City police came down on him hard, dont know how much trouble he got into, but they confiscated his revolver right there on the spot, and took his CCW permit.
He said he was answering and add in the local paper and didnt know anything was stolen, police told him that under the circumstances he should have known.
But there never were any TVs to buy, it was a setup.
Buddy said they all recovered, but one guy has to wear some type of collection bag for the rest of his life due to internal injury.

Few years back, there was a shooting around here, neighbor got mad at neighbor, fired a 357 mag into the neighbors trailer.
Bullet went through the wall, hit someone inside, passed through them, and exited the other trailer wall.
now I dont think mobile home trailer walls are all that strong, but I dont know for sure.

Local gun and pawn shop told me they sold a 22 mag derringer to an elderly man, he came in a week later, said he answered a knock at his door, opened door and a crack head shoved him back, he hit the floor landing flat on his back, pulled the 22 mag derringer and shot the guy in the stomach, guy went down they said, didnt kill him, but he didnt get back up.
State Police came, called the ambulance, old guy asked the police if he was in trouble, they said yes, your aim was off.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by vancelw »

mad trapper wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 am Yes, at point blank range, with factory ammo, bullet probably didnt have time to expand.
Point blank range doesn't mean what you think it means. And the closer the projectile is to the bore, the higher the velocity, so it is more expansive, not less.
I do see your point that it could hit all 3 without killing them. It's possible.

I have had one shot stops with nearly every caliber of gun I have ever owned, including .22 LR and .22 short.
It's all relative.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

Back in 2008 Leverguns Texas Safari hunting with 86er we were in a blind and a nice Blackbuck doe came within range, and 86er said to take that one out. Shooting my 16" barrel Rossi 357 mag trapper I shot it once perfectly placed in heart lung area, and it starting walking off. 86er instructed to keep shooting it until it dropped. I came out of the blind and followed it shooting two more rounds into the same area before it finally dropped. First shot was about 40 yrds, final shot about 80. This was a 80 pound doe with no adrenaline to push it along. Now I know Blackbucks are known for their toughness but even I was amazed at how much lead this little animal could absorb. I use the same gun to hunt feral goats on Maui, and they drop at one well placed shot no problemo. Moral of the story? I dunno, you draw your own conclusions. Sure do miss 86er. Anyone here know how he is doing?
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by JimT »

vancelw wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:45 pm
mad trapper wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 am Yes, at point blank range, with factory ammo, bullet probably didnt have time to expand.
Point blank range doesn't mean what you think it means. And the closer the projectile is to the bore, the higher the velocity, so it is more expansive, not less.
I do see your point that it could hit all 3 without killing them. It's possible.
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Hollowpoints can tend to plug up. Shooting through clothing the hollowpoint may fill with cloth and not expand. The bullet just acts like a solid. I once saw 5 .357 JHP bullets recovered from shootings and none were expanded. All of them had plugged up and just deformed the nose a little.

The 200 gr. 45 ACP bullet above was a highly recommended self-defense round. Fired into 3/4" pine boards from about 7 feet (from a 1911) it penetrated fairly straight and did not deform.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by vancelw »

JimT wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:40 pm

Hollowpoints can tend to plug up. Shooting through clothing the hollowpoint may fill with cloth and not expand. The bullet just acts like a solid. I once saw 5 .357 JHP bullets recovered from shootings and none were expanded. All of them had plugged up and just deformed the nose a little.
Yes,I agree. But being farther from the muzzle will not make it expand more.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by JimT »

vancelw wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:54 pm
JimT wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:40 pm

Hollowpoints can tend to plug up. Shooting through clothing the hollowpoint may fill with cloth and not expand. The bullet just acts like a solid. I once saw 5 .357 JHP bullets recovered from shootings and none were expanded. All of them had plugged up and just deformed the nose a little.
Yes,I agree. But being farther from the muzzle will not make it expand more.
Very True.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

I'm surprised the guy relating the story is not aware of this. Its first year firearm and hunting knowledge. I'd like to see a news report or even link to the case, its all public record. I did a search but can't find anything on cops breakup a robbery scam with triple shooting, CCW permit confiscation all in one.
Last edited by mickbr on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Malamute »

There has been considerable improvements in bullet design to minimize hollow points from clogging, The better modern loads will expand in people/test media after fired through clothing, wallboard, car doors and windshield glass. if youre shooting game, then bullets designed decades ago may be fine. The better burrent stuff works much better on all the variables that can be encountered in defensive or LE shootings.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

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piller wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:37 pm Due to adrenalin, illegal drugs, and will power, any attacker may have any, a combination of these, or none of them. That makes for 1 shot stops being totally unlikely to be consistent. Even animals hit with a bullet will not react the same way every time. Practice, train, and be ready to shoot again. There is that old Comanche story of the Blackfoot warrior who they attacked. He more than held his own until one of the Comanche got behind him and cut his head almost off with a hatchet/tomahawk or maybe a long headed fighting lance. The body fell, stood back up, and took some wild swings with the long knife in hand before falling down dead. That warrior just refused to quit. I heard the story from an old Cherokee historian who knew my cousin. My cousin brought the white eagle back to the Cherokee People. The Cherokee and the Blackfoot People have reservations which are close. Of course, the story might have been just a story.

One of the Dalton gang survived 38 gunshot wounds in a single gunfight. That is historical fact and easily researched.
When an estranged marital dispute went ugly and turned into a violent home invasion, a co-worker of mine was forced to use a 12 ga. and a #7 1/2 low brass target load at contact range against his ex son in law....

It was a clear case of self/home defense except the guy ran out the door, down the porch steps, down the drive, across a forty foot paved road, through a deep ditch and almost to the top of the opposite ditch bank before expiring.....there was nothing left of his head but the brain stem and lower jaw....the deputies arrested my friend because they assumed he had drug the headless guy across the road in a panic to confound and confuse a crime scene....
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by piller »

Nerve tissue, adrenalin, and well oxygenated tissue can do things which seem to go against all reason. I don't know exactly why. If i could answer that, I could be commanding $300,000 or more per lecture. When other variables are thrown in, you never really know.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Rusty »

In times past the 125 grain .357 Mag from a 4" barrel was considered the number one one shot stopper. That test was done a long time ago. FBI testing has resulted in a lot of new ideas. You might consider looking up some different tests but the FBI is considered the gold standard.
IMHO a 158 gr HP out of a carbine would be pretty close to the best as long as you're not planing on shooting thru something first. Back in the 70's when I was a LEO I carried 158 gr SP but I still worried about enough penetration. YMMV.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Ray »

Rusty wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:14 am In times past the 125 grain .357 Mag from a 4" barrel was considered the number one one shot stopper. That test was done a long time ago. FBI testing has resulted in a lot of new ideas. You might consider looking up some different tests but the FBI is considered the gold standard.
IMHO a 158 gr HP out of a carbine would be pretty close to the best as long as you're not planing on shooting thru something first. Back in the 70's when I was a LEO I carried 158 gr SP but I still worried about enough penetration. YMMV.
Good luck and God's speed.
Some how I don't think you really had to worry about that......
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mad trapper »

mickbr wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:02 pm I'm surprised the guy relating the story is not aware of this. Its first year firearm and hunting knowledge. I'd like to see a news report or even link to the case, its all public record. I did a search but can't find anything on cops breakup a robbery scam with triple shooting, CCW permit confiscation all in one.
First off, I am not lying, I am relaying the story as it was told to me, leaving out names for obvious reasons.
I also know how HPs work.
I have a buddy who was shot with a 7.62 39 round while in Grenada, hit him high in the shoulder.
He was with the Ranger battalion and I was with the 82nd, he showed me the nasty red scar on his shoulder, did I see the bullet hit him, no, maybe he is lying also, I would bet my life he is telling the truth.
I started hunting in 1960, Ive been reloading for around 10 years, due I have your vast knowledge, probably not.
Do I have personal references in order to join this forum, no.
so far I only recognize one person on here, Pitchy, about 8 to 10 years ago we corresponded quite a bit on the muzzle loading and black powder forum, my username was 82nd Airborne.
But I doubt Pitchy remembers me.
I joined the forum because I am a big fan of Paco Kelly , I am constantly reading his articles, and his service with the DEA is Legendary.
When I returned from Grenada in !983 as a rifle squad leader, I was offered a position as a deputy US Marshall, but I turned it down due to the extensive travel, I wanted to start a family.
I have a Paratrooper buddy who served with me in Grenada who is serving with the DEA as an undercover agent.
So I appreciate and understand Pacos sacrifice with the DEA and my leaving this forum does not reflect on him.
I get the feeling there are individuals that are trying to run me off by parsing every word and phrase I post, putting them under a microscope and trying to find fault and discredit me.
If this is the case, they have succeeded.

This is my last post.

Feel free to close my account and delete my posts.





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AJMD429
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by AJMD429 »

mickbr wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:01 pm
mad trapper wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 am Yes, at point blank range, with factory ammo, bullet probably didnt have time to expand.
Seriously bud that's a hell of a story for your first 6 posts. Let me get this straight.Your guy meets someone at 'the abandoned warehouse in town' three guys pile on top of him, he shoots up and these guys are lined up enough to all 3 get drilled with the shot, they drop permanently to one shot, yet none get killed. The bullet cleared at least two bodies without expanding because it didn't have time to. You know the closer you are the more the bullet expands due to higher velocity right?
Yes, but if the bullet expanded in the first person yet didn't hit a vital organ, it could have lost enough velocity that it was less damaging in the second and third.

I've not actually been there and seen humans get shot, although I've had patients who were shot and survived (or in a few E.R. cases, did not), but I've seen tons of animals ranging from horseflies (100 yards with a 6mm Rem :twisted: :mrgreen: ) to large deer get shot, and there is a HUGE variation in how quickly they expire. Sometimes a 'sure shot' with a 'powerful cartridge' and a 'good bullet' doesn't do the job, yet other times a lousy hit with a wimpy cartridge and a terrible bullet DOES do the job.

So I'd never be the one to tell another person that what they saw or heard is impossible.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jeepnik
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by jeepnik »

Probably. But, short of standing at ground zero during a nuke blast, nothing is certain.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by piller »

When I was in, in B Co 3/504, we still had a couple of Sergeants who got their CIB in Grenada. Mad Trapper's avatar is a MC1-1 steerable 'chute. I got to use one a couple of times. They were better than the standard T10B. You did have to be a little more observant due to the forward momentum, but knowing when to pull the toggles down to your knees and then let go would stop your movement and allow you to hit pretty much right where you wanted. My flat feet prevented me from making it a career.
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

AJMD429 wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:22 pm
Yes, but if the bullet expanded in the first person yet didn't hit a vital organ, it could have lost enough velocity that it was less damaging in the second and third.
it was more the 3x instant incapacitations with nothing fatal hit I was querying.
So I'd never be the one to tell another person that what they saw or heard is impossible.
I question anything remarkable in case the full story puts a different angle on things. But duly noted its not my place to call folks a liar especially if no one knows the full details of the event. So consider my comments retracted and apologies for any offense. :)
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by t.r. »

I killed this cow elk in north-east Wyoming with my 357 MAG. My PMC ammo featured their semi-jacketed 158 grain hollow tip bullets which did quite a bit of damage to the chest organs. But it took two quick shots to do the job. The animal weighed approx 350 lbs. Distance was about 50 feet or so.

Is my 357 MAG an ideal elk cartridge? No, but at archery distances it performs quite well.

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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by mickbr »

nice shooting t.r!
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Re: Does 357 magnum at carbine velocities produce 1 shot stops?

Post by Griff »

Location, location, location. In other words... if you don't put the bullet in the boiler room, you have no chance for a one-shot stop. If a 22LR will make a one-shot stop... I have no doubt a .357 can also.
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