Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

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mickbr
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Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by mickbr »

One of those hypotheticals we all love, or hate. This time is 38 special( say 38+ power in the carbine barrel) a viable self defense option? Not the most common scenario but work with me here. Maybe you were practicing cycling rounds for your next comp, when the bad guy breaks in downstairs with something handheld. :)
You engage with 38 special in a 357 carbine( assuming it feeds ok) - I don't think anyone benefits from a couple 158 grain RNFP in the chest....but then I know I can shoot a lot faster with a handgun than the lever( some of you fast cowboy guys could get more rounds in of course). Do you feel undergunned in this scenario?
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Old No7 »

Well, for sure it's not my #1 choice -- but in that scenario, it sure beats a flashlight, rock or sharp stick.

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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by JerryB »

Has not the .38 special in a HAND GUN worked for the police for many years???
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by jeepnik »

Honestly from a carbine they'd likely do the job. But there are just so many better options why would you choose an low powered round.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Blaine »

Dance with who ya brung to the dance..... :roll:
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by guido4198 »

JerryB wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:04 pm Has not the .38 special in a HAND GUN worked for the police for many years???
No...not really.
It was issued for many years....that doesn't mean it worked well. A lot of factors go into the process of choosing a sidearm for law enforcement. Effectiveness has historically not been high on the list.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by AJMD429 »

Same cartridge but a flat-nose or JSP and I'd be much happier.

What if choice was 44 Special LRN from carbine vs 38 Special JSP from carbine ...?
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by M. M. Wright »

AJMD429 wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:25 am Same cartridge but a flat-nose or JSP and I'd be much happier.

What if choice was 44 Special LRN from carbine vs 38 Special JSP from carbine ...?
I'll take the 44, (or 45) every time. I often fit that situation posed only with 44-40. I don't feel undergunned.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

I don't think the crook would wait for you to go get a more powerful gun and ammo no matter how nice you ask him so you have to work with what you have at hand at that moment be it cowboy loads in a levergun or a baseball bat.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

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Ancient Chinese proverb: Confucius say a 38 in the hand beats a 45 in the upstairs gun locker.
ancient Grizz Proverb: Put the 45 in the hand and leave the 38 in the upstairs gun locker.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Griff »

I often get teased for the .36 c&b loads in my 1851 at cowboy action matches... and get called for misses that aren't due to the low noise impact of soft lead on steel... but have had NO volunteers to stand downrange and use them for targets! I don't feel undergunned.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by JerryB »

Griff, I have read that the 1851 .36 caliber was carried and favored over the big .44 gun. For some reason it had to do with the .36 being a better killing round.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by horsesoldier03 »

It was definitely good enough for Hickok!
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Ray »

In the time before the grandkids came along, in my home there were numerous loaded long-guns standing in corners and good, old fashioned heavy sixguns here and there hanging by their trigger guards on dowels, coat-hooks, and door-nails....most were loaded with the relatively new cowboy action loads....

There was/is a member here from chicago I think who used to vehemently and adamantly disparage "the traditional anemic .44 special and .45 colt factory loads" as he called them and he thought even less of the newer economy flat-nosed target loads marketed to the new sport of cowboy action shooting. There were some here who jokingly challenged him to stand still at 75 or a hundred paces and let them test and see if the "weak" rounds would bounce off.

I thought then and I still do that a soft lead bullet of 4/10ths of an inch or larger and from between 180 grs. and 255 grs. traveling at least 600fps at impact is a viable home defense tool....again these are not quite as small as the .38 you mention but who would want to be shot with one ? Those cowboy action .38 loads from a long-gun are surely as powerful if not more so as a heavier loaded round from a snub-nosed revolver.
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gundownunder
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by gundownunder »

The 36 navy Colt fired an 80 grain ball at about the same velocity that the 38 spl fires a 125 grain bullet. Wild Bill seemed to think that was enough.
Although we need to make allowance for the fact that he didn't have to deal with drug crazed junkies.
I would think that a "normal", and "sane" person would think " Oh stuff, I've been shot", and would give up the fight right there.
Of course here in Oz, the subject of self defense is purely academic, we would call the police and they would come and save us :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Grizz »

I think it hinges on how easy it is for projectiles to penetrate the human thorax.

I've killed some number of deer with 25/20, and some few with 357 revolver and a big bunch with 44 mag, various loads.

from what I've seen there is no comparison between the 38 and the 43. while the 38s are probably adequate for killing humans betimes, depending on the shooter of course, the 43s, particularly the heavy-for-caliber loads, are much more effective and efficient at making meat, and more better at stopping bears, which thing happens in Alaska from time to time.

So I guess "use whatcha got" is the thing.

As a side anomaly I know a man who was gunned down in an Alaska village by some jurisdictional combination of uniformed "LEOs" who chased the man to the end of a dock in a boat harbor and shot him repeatedly from close range. Including with hand guns and a 12 Ga shotgun. The man was flown to Juneau and probably somewhere else where he refused to die. He was rehabilitated over the course of a year or more and eventually resumed his career as a commercial fisherman. The entire thing was covered up, and the eventual admission of guilt with a large blood money payment closed the books.

Point being, size matters, yes, but where the bullets actually go determines what they actually do. Banging steel doesn't replicate that reality.

I knew a man who was riddled with machine gun bullets in the Aleutian campaign to evict the Japanese from the chain. 16 or 17 wounds. He was left for dead and also refused to die. He was a commercial fisherman too.


Wait one, is there a trend here?
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by mikld »

I think the current Self Defense thinking is all about hyper velocity, armor piercing, 18 times caliber expanding, no over penetrating ammo that's easy to shoot with low recoil and no muzzle flash, and anything less is not worth loading in your gun. I think if I were proficient in handling a lever gun loaded with 38 Specials, I'd feel fine about using it for home defense. One of my current "house gun" loads is a DEWC, running around 14-16 BHN over a max. load of W231. In my 3" 38 the load produced about 900 fps and is pretty accurate and I'm sure it will work as I expect it to...
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by jeepnik »

Grizz wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:45 pm
Ancient Chinese proverb: Confucius say a 38 in the hand beats a 45 in the upstairs gun locker.
ancient Grizz Proverb: Put the 45 in the hand and leave the 38 in the upstairs gun locker.
Not so ancient Jeepnik proverb: "If you start with a bigger hole, you end up with a bigger hole."

Or to quote another fellow when ask why he carried a .45. "Because they don't make a .46.

Size does matter not matter what anyone says.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Ray »

jeepnik wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:53 pm
Grizz wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:45 pm
Ancient Chinese proverb: Confucius say a 38 in the hand beats a 45 in the upstairs gun locker.
ancient Grizz Proverb: Put the 45 in the hand and leave the 38 in the upstairs gun locker.
Not so ancient Jeepnik proverb: "If you start with a bigger hole, you end up with a bigger hole."

Or to quote another fellow when ask why he carried a .45. "Because they don't make a .46.

Size does matter not matter what anyone says.
Some jello junkie will read that and be impelled to post the ubiquitous photo montage of the results of gelatine tests of the 9x19, .357 sig, .40 s & w .45 acp federal hst that intimates that they are all the same and that anything else (except maybe speer gold dot) will fail to meet fbi protocols and either not penetrate enough or will clog the nose and fail to expand and thus dangerously overpenetrate....

I ain't buying it....make mine a .45 with a wide blue nose and advise any true believer in gelatine test to try to not stand too close behind the murderous miscreant i may have to shoot.....
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by jeepnik »

Ray wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:27 pm
jeepnik wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:53 pm
Grizz wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:45 pm
Ancient Chinese proverb: Confucius say a 38 in the hand beats a 45 in the upstairs gun locker.
ancient Grizz Proverb: Put the 45 in the hand and leave the 38 in the upstairs gun locker.
Not so ancient Jeepnik proverb: "If you start with a bigger hole, you end up with a bigger hole."

Or to quote another fellow when ask why he carried a .45. "Because they don't make a .46.

Size does matter not matter what anyone says.
Some jello junkie will read that and be impelled to post the ubiquitous photo montage of the results of gelatine tests of the 9x19, .357 sig, .40 s & w .45 acp federal hst that intimates that they are all the same and that anything else (except maybe speer gold dot) will fail to meet fbi protocols and either not penetrate enough or will clog the nose and fail to expand and thus dangerously overpenetrate....

I ain't buying it....make mine a .45 with a wide blue nose and advise any true believer in gelatine test to try to not stand too close behind the murderous miscreant i may have to shoot.....
Never been attacked by jello, so I can't say if they are right or wrong. People on the other hand...
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Panzercat »

Wasn't poor performance on warriors hyped up on drugs in the Philippines the reason they moved from .38 to .45acp just before ww2?
More tissue crush, more arterial depressurization. That was ball back then as well, not fancy 9mm modern technology bullets.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by mickbr »

often wondered about military doctrine on sidearms myself. historians make it sound like choice of handgun was critical for outcomes but the battles were won by the battle rifle. I wonder if mil officers used to rifle wounding will be critical on any handgun round, whereas cops kept using it, even for backup these days. Can't debate 45 is better than 38 of course, and that a 9mm may expand, but a 45 don't get any smaller . :D
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by jeepnik »

Panzercat wrote: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:25 am Wasn't poor performance on warriors hyped up on drugs in the Philippines the reason they moved from .38 to .45acp just before ww2?
More tissue crush, more arterial depressurization. That was ball back then as well, not fancy 9mm modern technology bullets.
One of the reasons. But, we aren't talking .38 spl. Those were old .38 colt rounds. Not in the same league as the special. Cavalry still ruled the day in 1911. So, the .45 acp was expected to do what the .45 colt did with respect to shooting horses.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by Grizz »

really off topic, but my constant companion is the lcp with truncated cone solids that penetrate to the same point as my gold dot 9mm. so, much as I like my 45s, ACP that is, the ruger can hide in my shorts . . . on Tacoma runs the 45 works as the backup to the 380. not conventional in most regards.

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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by walks with gun »

My first choice would be to pick up some type of expanding bullet, but all I had was .38 RNFP I wouldn't loose any sleep. The .38spl. when fired from a carbine will give you 38 plus P if not light .357 velocity, a carbine at any range is usually much easier to put good hits on target, and so many (not me) think the .357 handgun is OK bear protection at least for black bear size critters so it makes sense that a carbine even with 38 loads would be better. like I said though, I would find a box of expanding bullets when possible and make sure they feed.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by ChuteTheMall »

Shoot any creature on earth enough times in the face with anything, and he'll try to leave you alone.

Of course bigger is better, but anything beats nothing. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by AJMD429 »

I know in the past some people got in trouble for the very Politically Incorrect issue of firing at animals tied to stakes or something like that. But I guess if people really want to know what works to stop an attacker there are two options. One is to get a bunch of convicted felons with death sentences and make them charge towards a firing squad using different types of ammunition, and see how far they get. The other would be to take a bunch of dog pound animals destined for euthanasia and do the same thing. I'm sure either one would make the snowflake crowd go wild.
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by AJMD429 »

If I really KNOW I'm going to have to shoot something that tries to kill me, and I don't have the option of staying home, I will either have my 375 Ruger if it is a single assailant, or my Saiga 12-gauge if there are multiple assailants. Unfortunately, both of those Firearms are rather bulky, and I will probably be packing something like a handgun in 9mm or 45 ACP. Either should work, IF I do my part (put the bullets in a vital zone). :|
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by mickbr »

AJMD429 wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:15 pm If I really KNOW I'm going to have to shoot something that tries to kill me, and I don't have the option of staying home, I will either have my 375 Ruger if it is a single assailant, or my Saiga 12-gauge if there are multiple assailants. Unfortunately, both of those Firearms are rather bulky, and I will probably be packing something like a handgun in 9mm or 45 ACP. Either should work, IF I do my part (put the bullets in a vital zone). :|
Self defence with an elephant gun , I pity the fool who tries to rob you. Though I hope if you fire it you keep in mind what is behind the target, like the next 2-3 houses behind the target. :shock:
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by AmBraCol »

Current area of operations for yours truly is a place where reloading is forbidden and our only legal recourse is to the ammunition sold by the local Army store. Which means a 150 grain RNL slug over a tiny snifter of fast powder, which gives a blistering 625 fps or so out of the 4" Llama Cassidy (roughly the size/function of a S&W Model 10-8). That's pretty close to the so called "Cowboy Loads", isn't it? So far have only used it twice to draw blood. The second time was to put down our beloved Burkha the mutt when she was obviously past recuperating. A shot to the cranium from almost contact distance and she never knew what happened. I, on the other hand, was useless the rest of the day. But the first time I used that combination on a living breathing critter was to put down a pig that was destined for Christmas festivities at a friend's place. Usually they stick them and let them bleed (and squeal) 'til they drain out. I asked permission to put it down and when the time came a quick shot to the forehead gave interesting results. The shot went a tad high and left, penetrated the skull completely, impacted the vertebrae, split into two pieces. The first piece found was in the right shoulder area. Don't recall the exact weight but around 1/3 of the original 150 gr slug. The second piece was recovered from the LEFT ham area. And comprised almost exactly the remaining amount of lead from the original slug, only a grain or less was missing. So even a 150 gr slug traveling at a "measly, despicable, useless" 625 fps or so penetrated much better than I expected. A better profile would be desirable, say a RNFP or SWC - but we don't have that option here. So the "useless" RNL will continue to do the job - as long as I do mine.

One advantage of the low powered 38 is the accuracy with which it can be shot. You can't miss fast enough to win - a game or gun fight. So careful placement of your shots should get the job done, even with the less than desirable 38 Cowboy Loads. Shucks, ever year folks end up using the lowly 22 LR out of some rifle or other for defense and it gets the job done, the 38 SPL Cowboy load would be "more better".
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Re: Cowboy loads for selfdefence.

Post by mickbr »

great results ambracol, I don't think I will be putting my head up for no reason if 38 spl are coming down range.
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