effect of barrel length on velocities

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Message
Author
mickbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 pm

effect of barrel length on velocities

#1 Post by mickbr » Mon May 21, 2018 6:09 am

Gents I was looking to load about 4-5 grains of titegroup or similar behind a .357 158grain coated hardcast. The manual suggest about 1000-1050fps from a 10" pistol barrel. From a 24" rossi carbine do you think I will get much more velocity or will such a light powder charge be burned up well before that anyway?

User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6401
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#2 Post by Tycer » Mon May 21, 2018 6:58 am

With full 357 Mag loads and 158+ grain bullets velocity maxes at 16”. I would therefore surmise the light load would still be subsonic.

Cool website:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
.
And as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention. -David Byrne
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - http://www.peakprosperity.com - http://www.guntalk.com

mickbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#3 Post by mickbr » Mon May 21, 2018 10:52 am

Naw I can't believe 16" is maximum. Not saying this 4.5 grain powder load will get any faster... but full powder loads aka 20+ grains maxing out at 16?

Those BBTI charts aren't comparing apples to apples the way I see it. Their 16" gun is a closed breech 94, the 18" gun which is dropping 200fps is a open cylinder stoeger buntline...some of these revolver carbines let a lot of gas out. I had the circuit judge carbine in 22WMR and it was losing near 350fps over same length rifle...

User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6401
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#4 Post by Tycer » Mon May 21, 2018 3:37 pm

That’s not from oh it’s by the inch. That’s for my experience using 2400, little gun, it is 16 A 20, and a 24 inch. A combination of 94s and 92

Sorry about the bad grammar, I’m dictating this on my phone
.
And as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention. -David Byrne
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - http://www.peakprosperity.com - http://www.guntalk.com

User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2680
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#5 Post by GunnyMack » Mon May 21, 2018 5:51 pm

Most shotgun and pistol powders are done producing around 16-20.
My concern would be the possibility of sticking a bullet in the bore with light loads. I'd try 1 over a chrono and make absolutely certain it leaves the bore.

User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 11663
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E.Pa..Where Trump Is Supported And Colt New Service Targets Are The Best Belly Guns

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#6 Post by Sixgun » Mon May 21, 2018 9:18 pm

The only thing I can add is that by chronographing several thousand rounds from several 9mm handguns vs. a 16" barreled UZI did not produce enough velocity gain that would mean the difference between lights on or lights off.----6
The Very Mighty BAR 30-06
Rino's From Communist States Need Not Apply
Image

JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#7 Post by JohndeFresno » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 pm

For what it is worth - using a ballistics program only, and certainly not from my personal experience, I get these figures from QuickLoad, below.

I tried a few different 158 grain cast bullets, and results were all similar. However, I cannot account for friction difference in the hard cast bullet you are using from others, so I will just present what I ended up with as a model.

Bullet: .358 cal. 158 grain Speer Lead Semiwadcutter (LSWC) #4623
COAL ("OAL") 1.590"; bullet listed as .660" long
Hodgdon TiteGroup 5.0 gr.
Maximum PSI (PMax) 22805 psi, all loads -
Powder already burned 100% at 6" barrel or less, started at my Python 6" barrel length
10" barrel: 1085fps
16" barrel: 1155fps
24" barrel: 1206fps
Oddly, MV's are the same when I check "Friction Proofed Bullet." Perhaps a coated pistol bullet is too short to make a difference(?)

Again, just throwing out what my ballistics calculator sez.

User avatar
FWiedner
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8136
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: North Texas

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#8 Post by FWiedner » Tue May 22, 2018 1:51 am

From my own experience I can only say that an AE 158gr JSP chronographs at 1080fps out of my 4" Colt Python and/or GP100 and at 1800fps out of my 18" Marlin 1894C.

:)
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

mickbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#9 Post by mickbr » Tue May 22, 2018 11:58 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I have a wide variance of advice on different forums. From bullets slowing down to gains of 100, 150fps and 200fps. Persoinally I can't see 200fps being possible but one of the knowedegable fellows I correspond with suggested he gets about 100-120fps gain, which is actually pretty similar to your quickload estimates Johndfresno :)

As to full power loads, Paco's loads here indicate the bullet is still gaining speed even between 20 to 24", 80fps or so. While 16" may be where the powder is all burned up, the pressure is still enough to keep speeding up the bullet up for quite a bit more length.

But anyway for these light loads of fast burners, which are another subject, I'll bite the bullet and do some chronographing between my 6" pistol and 24" carbine and report back.

User avatar
vancelw
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3421
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm
Location: 90% NE Texas and 10% SE Montana

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#10 Post by vancelw » Wed May 23, 2018 12:52 pm

mickbr wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:58 pm
Thanks for all the replies. I have a wide variance of advice on different forums. From bullets slowing down to gains of 100, 150fps and 200fps. Persoinally I can't see 200fps being possible but one of the knowedegable fellows I correspond with suggested he gets about 100-120fps gain, which is actually pretty similar to your quickload estimates Johndfresno :)
You're going to get broad answers because everyone reads your question with their own bias most of the answers I have seen given to you (on other forums as well) are too narrowly based on that person's own experience with their own favorite powder and their own favorite bullet.

Quickloads is a good research tool to get you started on real life experiences. JohndeFresno and Earlmc have helped a lot of people on this forum with Quickload queries.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle

User avatar
OldWin
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:38 pm
Location: Maine

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#11 Post by OldWin » Wed May 23, 2018 1:10 pm

Just for reference, with 6.5gr of Unique behind a 158gr Rainier plated bullet, I get 950 from a 4" S&W 66 and 1350 from a 20" Rossi 92.
Great shooting load, by the way.
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#12 Post by JohndeFresno » Thu May 24, 2018 1:01 pm

OldWin wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:10 pm
Just for reference, with 6.5gr of Unique behind a 158gr Rainier plated bullet, I get 950 from a 4" S&W 66 and 1350 from a 20" Rossi 92.
Great shooting load, by the way.
I am a huge devotee of QuickLoad, even given the fact that (as Earl and I have both stated) some of the handgun load predictions with certain powders are a bit less accurate than long gun loads.

I attribute the occasional handgun load discrepancy to certain spikey powders and - my theory, at least - that cylinder gap in the revolvers where gas leaks out.

Anyway, QL very closely echoes the above load info, as an example. Remember that firearms, barrels etc. vary, but QuickLoad sure helps me to start out with a reasonable load; very important for a former mountain boy who is stuck in a town several miles from a range or a good shooting area.

The Rainer bullets and of course Unique powders are already in the tables, so no juggling or guesstimating is necessary for this info:
158gr Rainier HP plated bullet, 6.5 gr. Unique, Stated SAAMI Max PSI for .357 is 35000psi (35k); 64.8% fill of the cartridge
4" barrel: 99.35% powder burned, 14485 psi, 940fps MV
20" barrel: 100% powder burned, 23974 psi, 1387fps MV

The problem with Quickload is the price: Currently $152.95 for combined Quickload and Quick target, plus tax and negligible shipping. But that was absorbed long ago - for me - by gasoline savings (about $10 each round trip) and component selections (wrong powder purchases are costly) while working up the particular loads that I wanted.

octagon
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1293
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#13 Post by octagon » Thu May 24, 2018 5:01 pm

I found emergency canned food at the farm had expired. Lined em up on the range and had at em with a 3.5 in. Premodel 27, and an 8 in. Python. The Smith put holes in and knocked over the cans. The colt blew em up, split like a bannana,, and found blood spatter 35 feet away behind d the firing line at 21 ft. Great fun and wife went 6 cans in a row with her grandpa's smith. The difference in damage from the two great 357s was an eye opener :shock: :shock:

mickbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#14 Post by mickbr » Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm

thanks all and vance and Johnd, I hear you about quickload. Would it show what powder can get 1200-1250fps with 158 grain with the smallest charge? Thats equal to factory revolver, good load for game where I'm at. Hodgon suggests 5 grains of powders like 700x... I got Hodgon clays and win231 on hand which might do similar.

JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#15 Post by JohndeFresno » Tue May 29, 2018 9:07 pm

mickbr wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm
...Would [QuickLoad] show what powder can get 1200-1250fps with 158 grain with the smallest charge? ...I got Hodgon clays and win231 on hand which might do similar.
Yes, over fifty powders listed, although you need to verify the raw stats against suggested powders for your firearm. That is, even rifle powders are listed for this load - way over 50 by my quick rough count - that apparently fall within acceptable pressures (below SAAMI max).

One of the lowest charges is this for a 10 inch barrel using the 158gr. Hornady SWC #10408
Alliant POWER PISTOL, 61% fill, 7.0gr., 1250fps, 96.7% propellant burnt, Max PSI 19816

It appears that Hodgdon Clays would be way over pressure of the 35000 SAAMI Max listing.

And your Win 231 is iffy, but if you load up carefully to about 1211 fps (Not 1250) for this load, you SHOULD be stayting within safe limits, per this software’s suggestion. Again, always double check this prediction against other creditable published sources and work up to it. Per QL:
158gr. Hornady SWC #10408, using a 10” barrel
Bullet length is a major factor in getting the right stats;
This listing is for a bullet that is .690” long, COAL 1.590” –

Win 231, 6.2gr. 56.6% fill, 100% burn, 28229 Max PSI, 1211fps

There are many powders that would work better, however. There is a lot of info; I'll PM you after dinner.

mickbr
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#16 Post by mickbr » Wed May 30, 2018 5:28 am

Thanks I meant equalling factory levels but with the rifle, so getting 1250fps in a 24" barrel. But thanks for that info you posted its good to know anyway.

JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: effect of barrel length on velocities

#17 Post by JohndeFresno » Wed May 30, 2018 4:34 pm

mickbr wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 5:28 am
Thanks I meant equalling factory levels but with the rifle, so getting 1250fps in a 24" barrel. But thanks for that info you posted its good to know anyway.
Yes, misread first post. Sent another PM.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Old No7, Sixgun and 20 guests