Cops need to go back to revolvers

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Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by wecsoger »

Musings on S&W's re-introduction of the model 19 brought on this particular rant.

One of the good things about the video revolution is it brings much needed transparency to policing
(full disclosure, I'm very pro-video)

What dismays me about the shooting-of-the-week videos is the excessive number of rounds fired.

There's a problem in law enforcement today, situations are escalated too quickly and lethal force used much too often.

There are enough incidents where 20, 30, 40, or more rounds expended, sometimes without even the target being hit.

Everyone one of those bullets are going downrange and will impact something eventually.

"I'm sorry Mrs. Martin this happened to your kid, but there was an incident with a car stop two blocks over..."

So I'm saying law enforcement needs to go back to revolvers.

"But wait, wesoger, cops have to have weapons like the bad guys on the street!"

Ahh...no. That's poo-flinging-monkey tactics.

If a monkey is flinging poo at you, do you adopt the same tactics, scream louder and throw poo back at him?

No, you pick up one rock and settle the fight.

You say most cops are not that good enough to use that one stone, errr..one shot?

So the alternative is they should always pretty much do a mag dump in every shooting situation?

Will be interested in seeing the new, improved model 19, but the model 66 or 686 would be a great carry gun.

I'm partial to the Ruger GP100, and back when I was wearing the Sheriff's hat would have felt perfectly comfortable carrying one.
(full disclosure, I had a personal purchase Gen 1 Glock 17)

Along with a couple of Safariland speedloaders.

So chime in with your $00,000.02 worth.

I left out couple points (revolvers usually better ballistics, simpler to train, reliable, etc.) but others will come along and bicker on those issues.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by claybob86 »

Seems to me that what you're describing is a training and practice issue, not equipment.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by rossim92 »

claybob86 wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 11:37 pm Seems to me that what you're describing is a training and practice issue, not equipment.
I agree! One shot or a thousand , cops are responsible for each rd they shoot. I hear they do a lot of paperwork after discharging a firearm. what say ye leo's?
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Cops need to go back to revolvers -- NOPE

Post by 1894c »

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by guido4198 »

This:
" It's real easy to speculate unless you have personally been involved in a shooting incident...."
Now that I have that off my chest, I'd like to ask if the OP has the numbers showing how many citizen bystanders have been injured by police gunfire by officers using hi-capacity semiautomatic sidearms versus those using 6-shot revolvers. Without that, any discussion regarding equipment is pure speculation.
Frankly, I tend to believe there's been a sea-change in citizen behavior which is more responsible than anything for the number of LEO shooting incidents than anything to do with equipment.
"There's a problem in law enforcement today, situations are escalated too quickly and lethal force used much too often."
NO...Not just NO, but H*LL NO.
There's a problem with individuals who have been reared to believe it's OK to FIGHT cops. That it's OK to ignore the directions of law enforcement.
When did that become a good idea...???
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Rusty »

I'd have to agree it's a lack of skill/training that is the problem, not the equipment. Even when I carried a revolver as a LEO I sometimes carried a 1911 as a backup. Most cops aren't gun guys, that's just a fact of life.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by AJMD429 »

guido4198 wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 4:54 am There's a problem with individuals who have been reared to believe it's OK to FIGHT cops. That it's OK to ignore the directions of law enforcement.
When did that become a good idea...???
Yeah, they commit a crime, then run when told to stop, then if they get cop-shot, they act all surprised and the news media says nothing other than they were 'unarmed'.... :roll:
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by GunnyMack »

I agree it's a training thing...
Back in the 80's our Northern region State Police trained at 'our' gun club. At that time the NJ State Police were issued HK P7's, you remember the squeeze cocker? Well most of the troopers had a heck of a time qualifying. They also trained with 870s.
Us kids got to know the troopers and they let us shoot along side and half the time we would out shoot them with issue guns. Finally the brass requested we not shoot with them because we were decreasing moral...
Cops get my whole hearted RESPECT, they deserve it! Cops should be trained and trained again and continue to train just so they have no need to do mag dumps and get low percentage hits...
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by J Miller »

Wescoger,

"Cops need to go back to revolvers"

I agree with that, but I also agree with 30-30 that it will never happen.

As a matter of fact I look for the next escalation in police shooting equipment to be a 9mm sub machine gun carried as the normal duty weapon like they do in some European countries.

I grew up in the day when police officers or peace officers carried revolvers. 38 Special, S&W or Colt, were the only guns allowed by the Phoenix PD at that time. Later the departments wanted more fire power so they asked for the .45 ACP but the powers that be could not be convinced the 1911 design was safe enough for the run of the mill cop. So eventually they settled on the .357 Mag in the traditional Colt or S&W format. Rugers, as good as they were were not accepted.

Then in the 70s the feds started supplying civilian departments with military equipment. And it's escalated to the point that the criminal is no longer fighting the local police officer or peace officer, but the LEO. Law ENFORCEMENT Officer.
Police officers have changed, criminals have changed, equipment on both sides has changed, but the one thing that has stayed the same is the cheap @$$'ed departments that send their officers out with minimal firearms training.

Back in the late 70s I was a charter member of the Cactus Combat League IPSIC group in Phoenix. We used normal service weapons then, not the race guns that came later. At that time I was driving armored trucks and used the combat matches as a bit of training.
As time passed we had members of the Phoenix PD, Maricopa County SO, and other agencies shoot with us. On a bad day most of us "civilians" would out shoot most of the police even if they were having a good day.

The only positive thing that would come from rearming LEOs with revolvers would be less lead in the air to hit bystanders, their hit to rounds fired ratio would still be dismal. No difference from back in the revolver era.

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by piller »

Never been a Cop, so my opinion is totally a civilians opinion. If the portion of the US born communities who commit the majority of violent crimes would just follow orders from Cops, then most shootings wouldn't happen. Refusal to believe that Authority Figures have any right to tell you what to do is a great way to get in serious trouble.

Some shootings will always happen due to human nature, but setting up a whole community for failure by not having the young males grow up with a head of household and letting them learn that the tougher and more violent they are, the better their life will be is a recipe for increased shootings.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by mikld »

Not a LEO here (been on the other side a couple times though). But I'm often dismayed by the firepower exhibited in a shooting (20, 30 and more shots fires, seemingly wildly). I have never agreed with the "keep pulling the trigger until he drops" line of thinking, regardless of what weapon is used. I would like to see the return of the "double tap" shooting technique, or is marksmanship and responsibility a thing of a bygone era?
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by gamekeeper »

It might be interesting to get a mixed group of LEOs to take a typical training exercise with both semi autos and revolvers and compare the scores.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JerryB »

Gamekeeper hit it right on the nose. We know how Jerry Micksomething can still win matches against all of the bottom feeders. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE !!!!!!!
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

claybob86 wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 11:37 pm Seems to me that what you're describing is a training and practice issue, not equipment.
Absolutely.

My training was "shoot to stop," not shoot to kill.

Shoot, assess, shoot again only if you have not stopped the threat.

And if you didn't make a suitable amount of hits in a certain course of fire, you were retrained before being released for field duty, or given a non field job.

On the other hand, facing a continuing deadly attack and if observing that your shots are totally ineffective, eg. the attacker is wearing a ballistic vest, it's 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, then assess - as taught in POST certified (Calif Peace Officer Standards and Training) drills.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers -- NOPE

Post by Sixgun »

30-30 wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 2:18 am we train to eliminate a deadly threat...period, and in no way will I ever go back to a revolver or suggest any LEO or Agency that I'm connected with do likewise. It's real easy to speculate unless you have personally been involved in a shooting incident or connected with the investigation of an Officer Involved Shooting (OIS), or have an LEO buddy who has actually been through such an incident (I have two such friends). It's very easy to second guess, do arm-chair analysis, or wish for the good-old-days of the S&W Model 19, no thanks... :)

PS -- so, in the end, I'll take my Sig P320 Carry (17-shot mag, plus two extra mags) into harms way before I'd take a 6-shot S&W 19, but hey what do I know, it's a training issue.
As a guy who owns 10 revolvers for every auto I agree with 30-30. I have read....never experienced.....that when an individual is actually in a combat situation they get scared and in a hurry to save their own life...thus...rounds are going to be wasted. In reality, how many guys can really remain calm in a firefight and remember things like the front sight and trigger control?

In my day semi-auto's were not all that dependable...you might get a hundred in a row then a stovepipe but after actually shooting these modern Glocks and Smith M&P's I am amazed how they eat up everything.

Today's crooks have zero respect for LEO and almost always have hi cap guns. I say give the cops whatever the heck they need even if it means an HK MP-5 or an Uzi. The more holes in a bad guy, the better.----6
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Pitchy »

Off the wall but I think they should invent a laser gun like on star trek and arm the cops with them, criminal gone along with any discriminating evidence.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by OldWin »

I'm not a police officer. My son, however, serves in the USCG as a boarding team member and has been a gun guy since a small boy.
The CG issues some stupid DAO Sig .40 as a duty pistol. My son was the only member to qualify with it. He said it is the most difficult to shoot handgun he has ever fired. He has an old model 19 Smith he can keep every round on an index card at 20yds double action. He said he would swap in a heartbeat if allowed. It is at least 6 useable rounds.
One problem, is the people selecting the firearms to be carried aren't carrying them into harms way. It's effectiveness as a weapon isn't the top priority.
As said, there is a divide that is widening today between the public and LE. Both sides bear responsibility, but most of that gap is caused by the media/TV, and government. Only the bad examples get heard about on both sides.
I support law enforcement most of the time. I do, however take offense, and feel it's a mistake when LE refers to the public as "civillians". Unless you are military, we are ALL civilians. It is a job, a police officer can choose a different career if they wish. Little things like this may not seem like much, but over time it creates a bad situation.
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Cops need to go back to revolvers...NO WAY!

Post by 1894c »

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

30-30 wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 pm i cannot speak to any other LE Agency, but we qualify, under stress, using different tactics and scenarios four times a year, plus we do active-shooter once a year, then we have four other in-service training's on top of that, which includes EVOC-- at least for us it's not a training issue and to say so doesn't ............ , actually I find it.......... :(
Yes! From 1969 to 2014 the three different California LE agencies I belonged to all trained quarterly. With the formation of POST standards in the 70's the range training was varied with all 3 agencies, instead of just static shooting at targets. Hopefully, all states now have their LE officers train in this way.
30-30 wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 pm ... a meth-up, mentally-ill...man charge him with a large knife...just ran full speed at the LEO. The LEO, per training, backed-up, gave multiple verbal warnings ...shot him SEVEN-TIMES...thereby neutralizing the deadly threat. The LEO had no time to shoot twice and then evaluate... it's a training issue.
Totally agree. Let's not get hung up on words and assume, in a violent fluid scenario, that one shoots, stops, mulls it over, then takes aim again. Assessment means observing the situation as you react. On the other hand, to open up and unload your weapon just because you hear gunfire from a fellow officer - that begs some serious investigation. Proper training involves the development of judgement skills, not just mechanical weapon control.

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Cops need to go back to revolvers...NOPE

Post by 1894c »

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Nate C. »

If I understand OP correctly, he advocates placing the combatant at a technological disadvantage with a goal of preventing an exaggerated response to an adrenaline-fueled, life-or-death-decision. This was precisely the thought process that resulted in a magazine cut-off being installed on the Springfield 1903 rifle that was first deployed about 115 years ago. Today, as then, stress-inoculation and training are the answer--not setting the officer up for failure.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by MrMurphy »

You're wrong.

Not going to debate the rest on an open forum.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by claybob86 »

MrMurphy wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 11:38 pm You're wrong.

Not going to debate the rest on an open forum.
Then don't tell someone that they're wrong on an open forum. :roll:
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by AJMD429 »

The CG issues some stupid DAO Sig .40 as a duty pistol. My son was the only member to qualify with it. He said it is the most difficult to shoot handgun he has ever fired. He has an old model 19 Smith he can keep every round on an index card at 20yds double action. He said he would swap in a heartbeat if allowed. It is at least 6 useable rounds.
One problem, is the people selecting the firearms to be carried aren't carrying them into harms way.
This.

I say let the LEO carry what THEY want.
Their more experienced colleagues and/or supervisors can advise them as well.
Of COURSE train often and well....
Allow the LEO to change firearms as their situations, duries, and experience evolve....
Hold them accountable for all rounds discharged, and for any harm to innocents....

But I'm sure not going to tell anyone else what they have to carry when going into harm's way; whatever THEY can use safely and effectively is the best choice.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JNG »

Well, I was a cop for four years before becoming a firefighter. I used a smith 10 and later a ruger security 6.
But as a FF we went to many cop shootings . Many times there were a slue of shoots fired. Why?

Because more then 1 officer was shooting at the bad gun! More training is needed, Yes. Get rid of semi autos,

I don't think so.
How many of you carry ccw autos?

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

JNG wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 7:02 am How many of you carry ccw autos?
The question for this thread should be:
How many times, in this century, are law enforcement officers faced with multiple suspects, assailants or gang members - toting quick loading semi-autos?

Should we give Armed Forces revolvers, as well? Saves ammo, you know.

I am finding it hard to believe that folks who follow a firearms blog like this one would seriously consider stepping back in time. Very, very few expert pistoleros can reload a wheelgun as fast as a Jerry Miculek.

I have carried a handgun daily for almost 50 years, and practice several times a year, although not daily. No speedloader or technique allows me to even approach the rate of aimed defensive fire that I can accomplish with any semi-auto. How about you, those who are proposing this revolver restriction on folks who are sworn to step into harm's way??

With the alarming rise in home invasion robberies and other multiple assailant assaults, even as a retired citizen I would be severely undergunned with a six-shooter. Obviously - it seems blatantly obvious to me - the same observation applies to law enforcement.

Clearly the answer is more and better range training for those agencies that are shooting up the innocent populace - not partial disarmament. Should the hunters among us be limited by law to muzzleloaders - so that we take more careful aimed shots at game and not shoot up the forest?? Perfect placement, you know, is the most important thing. That seems to be about the same logic.

And finally, as much as I hated all the paperwork I had to put up with - "1 hour of paperwork for 15 minutes of activity" was my constant grumble - what about enforcing after action reports like (I believe) most or all California agencies require? Who would want to write, "Well, I heard Joe's gun go off so I emptied my magazine into the guy in front of us..." I would think that this would curtail many foolish overly reactive shootings.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by AJMD429 »

I think revolvers are FUN, and they may be the ideal CCW or nightstand piece for a novice, and they still dominate in hunting situations where bulk/weight is not an issue, nor is capacity, but hefty power and large bore projectiles are needed. Even in the latter situation, the Glock 10mm is edging into revolver territory (and of course the Desert Eagle). But for self-protection, if an individual is going to practice and get emergency-level familiarity with their firearm so when the adrenaline is high and there are distracting events happening, and so on, they will still operate their firearm properly, a semi-auto is way better. Not all 'citizens' are in this category, but one would hope all LEO's are (and if they are not, as others have said, then it is a 'training' issue and not a 'semiauto' one).
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by gon2shoot »

OK my 2 cents. I would much rather have one good solid hit than 15 really fast misses. One of the stages when I did my qualifying for the Maricopa county SO. was to shoot (on target) 12 rounds in 25 seconds from a revolver loading loose rounds. Not many semi-autos being carried then (ya I'm old).

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

gon2shoot wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:22 pm OK my 2 cents. I would much rather have one good solid hit than 15 really fast misses.
So true - practice, practice, practice.

I have heard many times from "civilians" - non-police shooters - that the regulars at the range frequently shoot better than the police who are obligated to go there. Think about that statement. Those with gun hobbies or interests (frequent shooters) are obviously more likely to shoot better than many cops who are just performing some required practice. Not all police are gun lovers; they are just going through what they have to on one of many, many skills of which the public thinks they must be "experts" in more fields than the general population would try to master. Pretty silly when you think about it.

Nonetheless, it seems that many agencies should spend more time and money with firearms training; obviously because it involves life and death.

I admit that I am really bothered by firearms aficionados on this site speaking up with the dangerous philosopy that police should be restrained in their ability to return fire quickly and repeatedly with a semi-auto. Unlike the movies - which seem to blind this generation - a person does not drop dead with one well placed shot all that often. Many really crazed attackers - like our current crop of radical Islamic terrorists - will keep advancing until death. Stats show that multiple hits do not always stop a determined attacker. Six shots may not be enough, even if they all strike home, unless we are talking about the center of the head or other phenomenal marksmanship.

Do you want a policeman with a 6-shot .38 to defend your children or grandchildren against a crazy with an AK-47 at your local school?
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by AJMD429 »

Those with gun hobbies or interests (frequent shooters) are obviously more likely to shoot better than many cops who are just performing some required practice. Not all police are gun lovers; they are just going through what they have to on one of many, many skills of which the public thinks they must be "experts" in more fields than the general population would try to master.
True. My son-in-law had to learn ALOT more than 'gun stuff' when in the State Police Academy (although he did manage to place second out of his graduating class in firearms shooting 8) - I like to think my daughter teaching him to shoot was a contributing factor :wink: ).
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Griff »

claybob86 wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 11:54 pm
MrMurphy wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 11:38 pmYou're wrong.
Not going to debate the rest on an open forum.
Then don't tell someone that they're wrong on an open forum. :roll:
But... he's right.

The issue is far more complex than a simple change in equipment will correct. As others have stated, there are some societal issues that need to change, and need to change far more than a LEO needs to change his equipment. Stress training is about the best substitute for combat experience one can get. But... even the best stress training is inadequate. For the lizard part of the brain recognizes that it's not actually a real life & death situation.

The law enforcement officer is expected to make the correct decision 100% of the time. In 100% of the circumstances he/she may find themselves in. The brass expects this, the politicians expect this, the public expects this. The only persons that don't are their fellow officers and first line supervisors... but even they will Monday morning quarterback ad nauseum. All of which is unrealistic.

The wide variety and intensity of training is exceedingly sad. Many smaller departments simply cannot afford to have fully staffed and qualified training programs... even ammo needs can be a stretch. Then there are salaries... I know of some departments that are entirely volunteer... with maybe a salaried chief... getting training in those cases is truly problematic.

It's funny... when I was required to carry a revolver as my primary duty gun... I was also restricted from carrying a back-up on my person... and limited to 18 rounds on my person... yet no one criticized me for carrying a 1911 with up 10 full mags in my posse box. Luckily, I'm one of those that never had to fire my weapon, except in training. So, I'll not be casting stones at those that have... I have seen combat... and also know that my 15 round mags disappeared a LOT faster than I could believe!

I also believe that unless you've stood in the front line between society and anarchy, keep your trap shut. I won't tell you that, (1st Amendment and all that)... but that doesn't keep me from discounting the discourse.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by claybob86 »

Good post, Griff. My only point in my post that you quoted was that it seems a bit discourteous to tell someone they're wrong in front of the whole world without explaining why.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Civilian here, just listening in, not that I don't have a right to an opinion.
One thing that often does baffle me is when I hear of someone choosing a career in law enforcement who is apparently uninterested in firearms.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

Bill, "not all police are gun lovers" was my statement. That does not mean that they are afraid of, or don't like guns at all. Many are veterans. Some are hunters. But not all of them are so passionate about shooting, like most of us on this site, that they spend hours reading about guns, viewing gun pix, talking about 'em, shooting thousands of rounds a year or even a month. Which, by the way, definitely gives the edge of one who does this - shoot hundreds or thousands of rounds each month - over a police officer who merely spends the minimum time required to keep up his qualification to carry a firearm on duty, usually around 200 rounds a year (most Federal agencies require more). Yes, it should be more. Tell your local Congressman that you wish to pay more taxes. :lol:

And having to keep up on First Aid, Defensive Tactics, knowledge of and changes in the innumerable laws that they enforce along with latest court decisions regarding evidence and citizens' rights; attending Officer Training and Officer Survival updates, and (for many or most) also being family men or women at the end of the shift, they just don't have the time or interest in spending every weekend at the range.

Big difference. Contrary to what most cop haters think (not meaning you), many like me joined up with the desire to make this messed up world a better place; not as a convenient excuse to carry a gun all day.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by piller »

In the Army, we were told that "You fight like you train, so train hard"! It held true then, and it will hold true for a long time. If you are trained to hit your target, when you are in a pucker factor 10 situation, and your brain shuts down, your training takes over. Give the Cops more Hogan's Alley time. Train them, pay them, and hold them to high standards. BACK THEM UP WHEN THEY ARE RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! Most cops are doing a job that few want to do. Make sure that they know we have their back as much as possible. Recently here in Texas a State Trooper was accused by a woman he had stopped for a traffic infraction. She lied about his actions. His body camera saved him from jail time. She is not going to face charges for lying about his actions. She needs to face jail time for her slander of a public servant. I am not in that district, so my letter will probably be discarded by the irResponsible DA's office.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by 1894c »

Spent 11 hours in a patrol vehicle last night. I went to 7 calls (two domestic) and made 4 traffic stops, and was cover on a couple of other calls. All I can say is that I am very glad that I and the other LEO's on that shift did not have a six-shot revolver or a 5-shot BUG. Unfortunately, many comments on this thread have been mis-guided and ill-informed. If you think LEO'S are shooting too many bullets when confronted by a lethal threat--tough. :O
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by stretch »

Cops need judgement, training, and experience.

Good judgement, IMHO, is the single biggest quality needed in a police officer.
Some have it; some don't. It's a hard thing to teach. Hard to screen for, too.
To quote someone wiser than I am:
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment."

Overall, gun training for police officers has improved by leaps and bounds
since the 1950s. That said, there are still many, many departments where
the firearms training is woefully inadequate. It seems as if very small departments
and very large departments simply don't have adequate funds for comprehensive
firearms training and refresher courses. Not too awful long ago, the Washington
DC police department changed guns. Many cops were sent out on the beat without ever
having fired the new weapons. No time or money for training, you see. On the other
hand, I know of departments in Maine that have their officers shoot 1K+ per year.

Experience. Usually, people get better over time, especially if they have good mentors.

In moments of great stress, I think a policeman has to have confidence that his actions
will be fully supported. Without that confidence, hesitation can get him killed. That
is NOT carte blanche, however, and there are some officers who need to learn the
distinction.

Going back to revolvers isn't the answer, because the fundamental problems causing the
discharge of lots and lots of rounds will remain.

Interesting discussion, though!

-Stretch
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by rossim92 »

Pitchy wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 1:57 pm Off the wall but I think they should invent a laser gun like on star trek and arm the cops with them, criminal gone along with any discriminating evidence.
Forget the stun setting.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by J Miller »

A lot of comments here from the active and retired LEOs show just how prevalent the "Us Against Them" attitude has become.

They don't like "civilians" because we are not part of their organizations. They call non LEOs "civilians" with a sneer as if they were a caste above us. While forgetting that they are also civilians, NOT military. This started somewhere around the 80s with the militarization of the police departments.
This is where a lot of the anti police attitude from the public comes from. Each side dislikes the other. The city, county, state and federal governments are all pushing the public through the various LE agencies and much of the public is pushing back. It will only get worse.

Oh, one more thing; LEOs no matter what level of govt they answer too, LEOs are not now and never have been public servants. They are and always have been arms of whichever government they are employed by.

I'm old enough to have watched the changes in both the government / LEO attitude and the public attitude. It is not good. Most of it has come from the idiotic laws the governments have passed.

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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Paladin »

gamekeeper wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 10:39 am It might be interesting to get a mixed group of LEOs to take a typical training exercise with both semi-autos and revolvers and compare the scores.
The scores would go up for the ones who are not so limp wristed the could not control them. We used to start the qualification at the 50-yard line. With NEW S&W .40s we changed it to the 25-yard line to be able to hit the targets.
But let me know how many of you would be willing to carry a six-shooter against shitheads with 21 round mags.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Blaine »

:P :P Well, I think firepower is a good thing.
I also KNOW that 20 years with an Army M-16 and my peronal Semi-Autos confirm that it's WHEN they will jam, not if.
Also, don't nobody should tell another man WHAT he can say and WHEN he can say it. :wink:
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by AJMD429 »

J Miller wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 1:51 pmI'm old enough to have watched the changes in both the government / LEO attitude and the public attitude. It is not good. Most of it has come from the idiotic laws the governments have passed.
Yep....the 'war on drugs' tops the list - it has had no positive impact (little of any decline in drug abuse has resulted), yet gets scores of cops killed every year, and the civil liberty violations inherent in enforcing any 'prohibition' style laws results in citizens understandably distrustful of the police.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by mickbr »

I agree cops should have the best possible option. One thing I never understood is if revolvers were so bad, why did they survive for so long before being phased out. Semi-autos have been there that whole time, 100 years+, but no one using them? Those old timers weren't dumb, especially in the prohibition days, they were looking for scientific ways to beat crooks wielding SMG. Did they all grab semi-autos, no they invented the 357 magnum.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by piller »

Enough practice can make you better with whatever gun you use. No, we probably will not all become as good as Julie Golob, Doug Koenig, or Jerry Miculek. All we really need to do is get better than we are now, and to improve for as long as we are physically capable.

Something more important than all of the above is the willingness to shoot another human being. In many wars, it can be proven that most soldiers are not shooting at, but over the enemy. The scum who are causing so many of the current shootings are willing to kill because they have no concern for others. Training a good guy to be willing to shoot to hit a bad guy, and accept that the bad guy might not stop until dead, is tough. We had to be trained in the Army to ignore the fact that the enemy was human. We want Cops to be the good guys, and we forget that they need to be able to go head to head with the bad guys and win. It isn't really the gun used by the Cop.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Mr. Miller makes a good point. It is much harder to feel like an officer is your friend and neighbor when he is fully geared up and hidden behind smoked glass and wrap-around sunglasses "monitoring" you like a machine than in former times when you likely knew his name and waved when he rolled past with the window down. There has indeed been a sense of separation that has developed in recent decades. I don't think this is a positive development. Something has been lost.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by JohndeFresno »

Okay, I thought of responding with "enough is enough about the cops;" but I counted to 1,000 or something - I think I can still count that high - and decided to go with the last comment - "something has been lost." Indeed it has.

I live in an area where farmers, ranchers, mountain dwellers. These hardy types don't suck on the public teet for their livelihood; they still embrace and welcome our peace officers. They are not considered as merely "arms of the government;" they are our neighbors, peace officers, friends, folks who have saved lives - that means public servants - some who I personally know have lifelong injuries (some who died) after risking their lives to save folks in burning cars, crashed chemical trucks with toxic fumes, many other things - including gunfire from rapid firing weapons. That did not further the gubbmint agenda, Joe. I am personally offended by your statement, something that rarely occurs with me.

A friend and Highway Patrol Sergeant (my former neighbor across the street) died a slow lingering death after rescuing a drunk from a burning car.

in two separate incidents, two different deputies I worked with pulled drivers from caustic agricultural chemical trucks that caught fire; one eventually died with lung disease, the other still lives with it and now also has heart problems.

My best friend - fellow Viet Nam vet, camping buddy, and partner who had a wife and baby child - was shot in the head and then two of my partners were injured; I was nearly killed in the ensuing shootout before the perpetrator was taken out. This was response to a request for a police standby as a lady tried to move out from a failed relationship. No government agenda was furthered here, Joe.

My son-in-law recently narrowly escaped death by disarming a gang member at a vehicle stop who had his gun aimed at his crotch.

His (son-in-law's) cousin was ambushed a few years ago by a Mexican drug smuggler but he saved his life and his partner's by good marksmanship - he returned fire and took the perpetrator out and the criminal partner fled but was soon apprehended. I had gone to the range with that officer just a few days before to practice with him - very providential, I think.

I could go on and on with former partners and people I know who put their lives on the line and paid the cost, along with their families, sometimes with their lives. And the criminals network more these days, have developed sophisticated attacks, use sophisticated weapons; they pose a hugely increased threat than they did in the old police revolver days. So the officers' attitude - defensive and ready - has of course changed. That is how one survives these days. If you don't like cops, don't bother to call. A pox on those who badmouth law enforcement. There, I have said it, and I feel better.

I have indeed worked in some areas of a large city where, if you made a lawful arrest in protection of the public - e.g. arresting somebody who had stolen goods in their car - you had better have several backups. Because huge numbers of at least one minority group would instantly stream out of their houses, immediately assuming that a white cop making a minority arrest is an invader and devil. Threats, screaming threats (usually by the women in the crowd), other very real dangers were almost always the case, within literally just a few seconds after you made the arrest. You had better bet that this changes your defensive posture, desire for the best equipment, and demand for adequate backup in a hurry. But for that matter, if a police officer of the same "minority" made the arrest, then he was called names like "Uncle Tom" and hated even more.

Look around you, the climate that the modern day policeman / law enforcement / peace officer must deal with - take your pick on the title.

1) Citizen hostility - thanks to our last President's actions, police distrust by the populace has been magnified tenfold from when I worked the streets. Remember the many attacks from Obama's podium where he passed erroneous and damaging judgement against police officers' actions whenever a member of the African American community was at the receiving end of arrest or detention or other police action? His rush to judgement, joyfully repeated by our Socialist and anarchistic media, was later found to be all wrong, but of course no retractions were ever made. Those who don't follow cable news still believe that one officer shot an unarmed man who was surrendering, and that the perpetrator did not attack the officer or have an extensive record of violence. What other President in our history called a cop on the carpet by cleverly "suggesting" that he meet "for a beer" on the White House lawn - as a "teaching moment" - after he made a lawful arrest for interfering at a crime scene? Of course the "victim" of this "biased" action was a well known racist agitator of the minority community.

2) Encouragement of attacks on the police - "Pigs in a blanket" movements applauded by our media. If anybody objected to that menacing and indeed anarchistic movement and its many "peaceful demonstrations" of looting and burning buildings and trashed cars, he was and is labelled by our Orwellian type media as a racist, among many other epithets.

3) Universities are not "institutes of higher learning," anymore. They are liberal, leftist indoctrination centers. Here is an e-mail that I sent recently to a regent, I think it was, of California State University of Fresno (formerly Fresno State University or FSU), after a Paslestinian professor posted horrible hate comments about Barbara Bush on the eve of her death:

"I saw a television ad promoting the Fresno Education System where the words "Trustworthiness, Respect..." - the Six Character Traits - were touted proudly as one of the main goals of education.

"I observed the activities of both students and several professors at FSU way back when I was a volunteer soldier during the Viet Nam conflict - how the professors encouraged students to demonstrate against anything relating to the prevaling opposite political view of the mainly Liberal staff. Threats, screaming, violence were all present when even government officials tried to speak on campus. And it has gotten worse. The latest incident with your hateful Palestinian-American (heavy on the word Palestinian) professor has reached worldwide coverage, as you well know.

"How dare you folks now lie in such a baldfaced manner about "educating" young impressionable minds to be honest, trustworthy and respectful of others when in fact your system, and in fact most of the "establishments of higher learning" in this state, are indeed Indoctrination Centers, not centers of enlightenment.

"What is next - Chairman Mao's Little Red Book in each student's hand? Shame on all of you for your continued abject hypocrisy. There is an afterlife and there is a reckoning for your deeds and misdeeds towards "these little ones."

[JohndeFresno] / [My City], California"

4) And an increasingly self-serving, self-centered and morally bankrupt population who hate any authority figure because they have been spoiled and pampered with the New Imperative that you can "be whatever you want to be" by "following your dream" and all of that hogwash. At a recent TV panel showing, the giant ex-wrestler, bodyguard and comedian Brodus "Tyrus" Clay summed it up for these "Snowflakes" who think that the world owes everything to them: "Life is a beartrap." That is, not their Never-Neverland.

Now, I would never abide hotheads and hot-shots as partners - they would soon find themselves assigned to somebody else - because the "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd not only are a threat to the public; their actions also boomerang upon the good officers who are then blanketed with their guilt and shame. Yes, there are some bad cops and those who need training; but my experience has been that they are few and far between, at least in my state, and are shunned by the rest of us.

Yet, nobody is perfect, and even peace officers make mistakes. That is why, as many have said, training is the answer. Not giving them a slingshot so that they can't shoot up the neighborhood.

Ok - there will probably be some angry retorts. That's fine. I'm done with this thread.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Blaine »

I'll never bad-mouth a cop. Having said that, I'm a bit more nervous these days because LEOs are nervous, and I don't blame them. As a White, old-looking fat guy, if I am approached by an LEO, I freeze and keep my hands very, very visable. Quite honestly, in today's climate of overt LEO hatred, I don't want to be a headline in the next day's paper.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by 1894c »

JohndeFresno -- your post is excellent. BlaineG, with the creation of the Glock pistol (and I think you have a G-30), we don't see jams like the 80's vintage arsenal of auto's had, and if we do, we train repeatedly to tap-rack-reassess within a nano-second. Unfortunately we no longer live within the world we all grew up in. 9/11 really did change everything. Our world has become a dangerous place. Most of the LEO'S that I know carry three (3) extra magazines--WHY--because sometimes back-up is 20-minutes away, and dirtbags travel in packs of 2 to 3... Code-4 ... :)
Last edited by 1894c on Thu May 31, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by Griff »

John,

Thank you for your post, articulate, reasoned, and "on-point".
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Re: Cops need to go back to revolvers

Post by HawkCreek »

Saw this on another forum and thought it was interesting and rather pertained to this discussion. Apparently there are still 29 officers of the NYPD who still carry .38 revolvers as their service pistol but that will be ending soon...

http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/new ... matic-guns
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