410 or other?

[RustyJr]

I am not new to guns by any stretch and am currently an active LEO. That said my "adopted" grandmother was recently widowed within the last year and now lives alone. She does have a CWP and carries a Sig P238 in 380 on her person daily. As of right now it is her only usable gun (she does have a nearly identical spare that was her deceased husbands). That said she is wanting something else for a house gun. She has a 12 Ga 870 that is obviously too big for her and too much recoil. I am just wondering what opinions are on a pump action 410 with 000 buck for home defense. My main concern is lack of penetration, I know a hit with a 380 or 410 is better than a miss with anything else. My other thought/option on the table is the new Smith and Wesson M&P EZ 380. It is supposedly designed to be easy to work the action, load magazines and take down for cleaning (she is actually the one that made me aware of it and she likes it). In my mind the plus with the EZ is that it does have a light/accessory rail, is a caliber that she already has and easy easier to maintain control of while using the other hand to operate a phone and call 911. I do have a youth model 870 20 ga that I am going to let her try but in the event that is too much I am thinking it will be the 410 or EZ.

Thanks,
RustyJr

[fordwannabe]

Look at the short 12 gauge shells. Aquila is one that made them. I got them for my Mother and she felt they made her "scattergun" usable.
I have to say though she has a side by side with a haircut.

[Old Ironsights]

I agree with Ford. Given the guns she has, Aguila Mini Shells are the way to go.

If she HAS to have a new scattergun, then it should probably be a 20ga Bantam or some such. While the .410 is fun, and there is some interesting new ammo for it, the 20 is simply cheaper and more flexible in profile and ammunition.

[JerryB]

I am glad you are taking care of her and this problem, I reckon your dad is proud of you too. I have thought about finding some those short Mexican shells my self.

[3leggedturtle]

The 410 with #4 shot it the 000 buck loads are pretty impressive up to 20 yards. recoil is nothing even in a light single shot. Buckshot loads had all in a 3-4 pattern at the 20 yard distance. Todd/3leg

[M. M. Wright]

My Esperanza really likes the Aquila in her 12 ga Remington sxs.

[Blaine]

410? I personally would stick with slugs.

[44shooter]

Unless she really wants something else, I would suggest she sticks with what she has. The little Sig is handy enough to be in whatever room she's in at the moment.

The shotgun can be there for when the bedroom door flies open. Is it a full length hunting gun though? I have some Remington Express buckshot. It's supposed to be nonmagnum but I haven't fired any. I'd be more comfortable with a 20 than 410. Then again I'd more comfortable with a 410 shotgun than a 380 pocket pistol. That said they will work most of the time.

How about something like the new Ruger 9mm rifle? Should be low recoil with good hit ability.

If she really wants a larger 380, the tip up barrel ones are pretty cool. They can be chambered and unchambered without working the slide. Beretta and Taurus both made these for many years. I think Browning marketed one made by Beretta too.

[vancelw]

Reduced recoil 12 gauge if she keeps her 870.

The 410 pump would be lighter. I'd go with something between BB and #4 buck
You don't get many pellets of 00 or 000 in a .410

[GunnyMack]

I'd make sure that if you are to stick with her 870, get a bantam 20 or a 410 make sure to use an open choke. Especially with a 410.
If it was me I would look at 3" shells in #4 shot. Like others here mentioned very small patterns from the 410 at defense distance.

As for her handgun I'd probably suggest she stick with her Sig, she is familiar with its operating. In high stress that familiarity could make the difference!

[Rusty]

The problem with the mini shells is that they don't feed reliably at least in my 870. They have to be coaxed into the chamber after the first round. A Mossberg 500 will take a spacer that allows the mini shells to feed just fine from the magazine. Look at the video on Gunblast.com that they did on the Mossberg Shockwave.

[JRD]

All arguments about the ballistic merits of this gun/load versus another aside, the most important thing is that she has a gun that she is comfortable handling and can shoot competently. This is much more important than any particular gun or load.

There are multiple suggestions in this thread that are perfectly suitable.

Because you mentioned it, and because I am admittedly an S&W fan, I took a close look at the 380 Shield EZ... and I bought one for my wife as a house gun. I have showed the new EZ to a few friends who also were impressed with ease of slide racking, field stripping, mag loading, and the trigger pull. Slide racking force is probably half of racking my Shield. I can literally rack the EZ slide by gently pinching with two finger tips. Granted ease of racking isn't a concern for me, but for a woman, or someone older with arthritis, it could be a big deal.

Good luck in your selection process for your grandmother.

Jason

[Pete44ru]

.

I would respectfully suggest she stay with the .380 she's familiar & comfortable with - a shotgun of just about any flavor can be unwieldy for her to handle in an emergency, unless it's a Taurus Judge .410 revolver.

Since she's sounds like she's knowledgeable about guns, AND she's a woman - I would definitely let her pick/choose, once you've narrowed the selection down.

.

[AJMD429]

I would favor a 20 gauge, and add that whatever long gun she uses she needs to practice with (so it should be "fun' to shoot).

I agree about considering the Ruger 9mm carbine.

[Blaine]

I'd make sure that if you are to stick with her 870, get a bantam 20 or a 410 make sure to use an open choke. Especially with a 410.
If it was me I would look at 3" shells in #4 shot. Like others here mentioned very small patterns from the 410 at defense distance.

As for her handgun I'd probably suggest she stick with her Sig, she is familiar with its operating. In high stress that familiarity could make the difference!

I'm curious about your reasoning on that. At close range, I'd want a concentrated shot load for better penetration. I use 3" #4s in my little H&R and while it's great on small game I think it would hack off a guy in a jacket.

[jeepnik]

My mom used my old Mossy 500 in .410 with #4 buck toward the end and was quite satisfied. But the idea of a carbine in 9mm, 40 S&W or .45acp sounds like a very good idea. Recoil is light, weapon weight is low (I don’t know the strength of the lady) and magazine capacity is usually much greater.

Truthfully, today i’d likely get her an AR. Mom had sufficient upper body strength to manipulate one.

[GunnyMack]

A more open choke could make the difference in a hit or a miss at hallway distances. Also such a long shot column tends to create disturbed patterns with more restriction. When larger shot sizes are involved this gets more disturbed.
I really like 4 buck but in a 410 I'd stick with 000, closer to bore diamonds.
Slugs in 410 are great fun but again an older person under duress trying to defend their life I wouldn't want them to rely on hitting an intruder with solid projectiles.
If it were me I'd stick with open chokes, fine shot and hope I never need it!

[4t5]

A 410 shotgun at "across the room" distances is a formidable weapon, no one I know including myself would choose to stand in front of that. A load of #4's would make a bad day for the intruder as well as the doctor doing the clean-up. I've shot small game with that round, it is effective

[44shooter]

With all due respect, humans are closer to the size of deer and hogs than any small game. And we are talking about dangerous humans here. Anything much larger than a goose or fox should be shot with large pellets, the larger the better IMO. No squirrel loads in my defense shotgun thank you. The penetration just isn't there. I saw a video of a young woman taking a frontal blast point blank from a shotgun (12 ga?) in a college library. She simply turned and walked down the stairs.

I'm actually ok with the idea of a 410 for defense because of the loads developed for 410 handguns.(don't like these 410 handguns though)

[GunnyMack]

The video showing the person turning and walk away just proves the point that people/animals do not go flying thru the air as the movies make us believe.
The reasoning behind fine shot is MORE payload on target. However in a home invasion situation fine shot will NOT over penetrate through walls, preventing friendly casualties. It also could be the difference between a hit or a near miss.
Am I advocating a 410 for home defense- only as a LAST resort!
I much prefer a 12 ga. Again it's easier to make a hit with a shotgun than a single projectile like a pistol.
Also, the lawyers today would argue that your small game shotgun (410)was intentionally loaded with buckshot or slug to KILL a person, doesn't matter if it's a scumbag drugged up meth head that wouldn't think twice about slitting grandma's throat for her social security check! Whereas your lawyer could argue that your 3" #4's were in the shotgun because you have foxes raiding your hen house...

Again my HOPE is none of us ever have to find out!

[.45colt]

My wife can't shoot Her pistol well any more and if She had to defend Herself in the night when I was away I would be very concerned. I am adding more security lighting with motion detectors, and have Her thinking We Do need another dog. The Ruger PC Carbine has My attention and I'm sure She could handle it much better than her revolver. the rail under the barrel should make mounting a light easy, and 9mm recoil isn't a factor in a rifle. just My .02 .https://ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/models.html

[44shooter]

The video proves birdshot didn't incapacitate a 20 year old average size young woman who walked unaware into danger. Had she been a determined man with a large knife or even a stick, the shotgun wielding assailant would have been in serious trouble.

If I shoot something live with a shotgun, I want pellets to be able to penetrate vitals. The circumstances of a shooting far outweigh what shot size is involved as far as legal proceedings go. My 870 in the corner is loaded with 00 buck. I've thought of going to 000. As far as hits and misses go, ALL patterns at across the room distances are going to be very tight to the point that you are treating your shotgun like a rifle. There's not going to be shot flying all over the room. You're either going to make a big hole in the guy or miss. Might as well launch something designed for something bigger than a pheasant.

People have debated buckshot vs birdshot forever. The arguments for and against both have been the same. I think I'm on the right side of this one though. Birdshot is for the birds...literally.

[KeithNyst]

Have you considered picking up a cheap used 870 barrel and cut it down to the shortest legal length and try the agilla shells in it? Have her try the shells first, then if they work, consider the shorter barrel.

[samb]

The gun she made you aware is probably the gun she would most enjoy!

My small in stature son is 10 he loves his savage Mini 510 pump in 410.

[Ysabel Kid]

The problem with the mini shells is that they don't feed reliably at least in my 870. They have to be coaxed into the chamber after the first round. A Mossberg 500 will take a spacer that allows the mini shells to feed just fine from the magazine. Look at the video on Gunblast.com that they did on the Mossberg Shockwave.

Rusty pegged it. The 870, while great, just doesn't feed the mini's reliably. The Mossberg takes the adapter, which not only allows for the lower-recoil rounds, but increases the capacity of the shotgun.

If the shotgun is too heavy, Mossberg has made a pump in .410. It is lighter, and if she isn't going to shoot it a lot, the additional cost of the shells doesn't really matter much.

Few sounds beat that of a shotgun being racked as far as criminal deterrence...