45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

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JohndeFresno
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45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

This has been discussed before on various blogs, but I don't recall if it has been handled here. And perhaps a reminder is in order for those new handloaders - certainly there are a bunch of 'em in my state, now that the crazy ammo registration laws are taking effect.

My understanding from most sources:
Ruger Super Blackhawk and similars:
28.8k (28,800) PSI Max per several sources

Ruger New Model Convertible Blackhawk 45 Colt/45 ACP:
23k (23,000) PSI Max, although no official SAAMI listing to date

The latter lower PSI is what I am going by, as supported by my reasons below:

i have read in various blogs that the Convertible Blackhawk, due to its shared construction with the .45 ACP caliber, is not as stout as the Super Blackhawk. Accordingly, all of my 45 caliber revolver loads (except the Barnes bullet loading below) are within that safe range, anyway.

A current article in Brian Pearce's "Bullets & Brass" question and answer column seems to provide the best answer for this line of reasoning. This column and the argument cited appears in Handloader Magazine Issue 313, April-May 2018, Pgs 15-16. A partial quote:
“I have not conducted scientific destruction tests (but I have done so with other guns) to determine stress and breaking points of the Ruger New Model Blackhawk .45 Colt, built on the ".357 fiftieth-anniversary frame," nor am I aware of any labs that have. However, in measuring outside cylinder dimensions, chamber wall thickness, the amount of steel be-tween chambers, the steel thick ness over the cylinder latch notch (bolt stop notch), along with the steel type and quality, they clearly can handle loads that generate up to 23,000 psi…
“…when you ‘convert’ your revolver to .45 ACP by changing cylinders, Ruger recommends that cylinder with +P .45 ACP loads, with industry maximum average pressure being established at 23,000 psi. Incidentally, the .45 ACP cylinder shares very similar dimensions and strength as the .45 Colt cylinder, but is not identical.”


Barnes bullets - of the non-lead type which I must now load and and even carry if I hunt ANYWHERE in California - seem to be problematic for this handgun.
For instance, Barnes Reloading Manual #4 (Pg. 470) shows this load range for one of their bullets in the section marked "Ruger and T/C" Handgun Loads:
225 gr. Barnes XPB (#45120) using AA Nr 9
Min 18.0 gr Max 20.0 gr (for a sum over 1,200 fps)
When I ran the stats using QuickLoad, even the minimum 18.0 load, giving a projected 1,212fps from my 4.625 inch Convertible 45 Blackhawk barrel, I saw an over max projection of 29,524 psi. This is fine for a Thompson Contender or other very stout handgun, but apparently is unsafe for the Convertible .45.

Unfortunately, Barnes' reloading book does not display pressure figures. I called Ty Hardin at Barnes and he advised that the manual shows maximum pressure loads that are less than or equal to 30,000 psi.

So there you go - if and when I load up for hunting with the .45 Convertible (45 Colt/ACP) New Model Blackhawk, this California captive will need to find another powder and/or bullet, since even possessing lead bullets into the field can lead to confiscation and cite or even arrest.

Given all of the above, it would be easy to drift again into the ridiculous laws in my state or other topics. Or that, since I don't own a T/C or Super Blackhawk in .45 Colt caliber (I have one in .44 Mag!), what I have to do with the 40 bullets I have loaded so far.

But hopefully keeping within the confines of this post: Do I have it right?
23k Max for the Blackhawk Convertible 45 Colt/45 ACP - correct?
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by J Miller »

John,

I have not loaded many Ruger Only level loads for my OM Blackhawk, but for those I have loaded the data came from the Hodgdons #26 manual. The max pressure listed for their loads was 30,000 (and I can't remember whether it was PSI or CUP).
This was for use in the large frame .45 caliber Blackhawks as the mid sized ones had not been introduced then.
My BH has digested them without any signs of excessive pressure at all.
For the full sized Blackhawks I think that 23,000 max is way low. For the mid sized New Model Blackhawks it sounds about right.

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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Leverluver »

I have a 44sp on the new smaller frame that I really like. Liked it enough that I ordered a 45 convert thinking that it was also on the same frame. Nope, the frame is significantly larger than the 44, not as large as my super Blackhawk but larger. So I'm in the same boat. I agree that 23K sounds plausible but I haven't seen any confirmation on that.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Old Savage »

Hodgdon #27 lists the Ruger only loads at 30,000 CUP maximum. Of course that includes Freedom Arms and TC.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Pisgah »

I have an older Bisley .45 (on the Super-size frame) and certainly don't worry about any of the "Ruger only" loads in it, although personal preference (and an abundance of performance) keeps me on the lower end of that scale. But for the guns built on the mid-size frame I think the 23K limit is a good one. But, hey -- there is plenty of big-bore goody to be found there, so no big sacrifice for most folks.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Here are the .44 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk & Super Blackhawk cylinder frame sizes:

Image



Here are the .357 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk cylinder frame sizes:


Image


A close comparison of the measurements of all the frame sizes will show that the post 1973 New Model Blackhawks use the same frame size as the Old Model .44 Magnum.


Note: the latest .357, .44 Special & .45 Colt frames marked "New Blackhawk" or "New Vaquero" on the LH side are the same size as the 1962 Old Model frames, but with the newer 2-pin transfer bar lockwork ILO the 1962 model's 3-screw lockwork - a blend of the 2-pin New Models intro'd in 1973 and the 3-screw Old Models.

Note:

The Ruger "Vaquero" uses the post 1973 New Model frame size.
The Ruger "New Vaquero" uses the smaller/earlier style cylinder frame.

Note: ALL Ruger cylinder frames the same size as the 1962 frame should not be loaded as heavily as the larger post 1973 frames.



.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by piller »

I have a new model Blackhawk in 4 5/8ths inch with the conversion cylinder. I have loaded it to 1/2 grain under the max load listed in the Speer Manual I bought with the gun back in about 1999 or 2000. Those loads are rather stout. I have backed off a little since then, and have changed away from H110 to H4227. H110 is happiest at or near max load, and H4227 is fine in the middle of the range. As far as pressure, my pistol has never flattened a primer nor mashed the letters flat on the bottom of the cartridge. Extraction was easy even with full power loads using H110. Accuracy has always been good. I am not anywhere close to being as knowledgeable as many about reloading, but I haven't seen anything to worry me with my pistol and the hot loads other than shooter fatigue. The info on frame sizes was really helpful.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by m.wun »

Don't have a clue on the pressures, but maybe Liehi Defence has a bullet that may work better.(LEAD FREE).
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

Great stuff, all.

Thanks!
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JerryB »

My grandson has the New model blackhawk with both .45 cylinders. I have loaded up a box of 260 grain Keith bullets with 8 grains of Unique. We have shot a lot of them, now after reading this where is that load at pressure wise?
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by earlmck »

JerryB wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:30 pm My grandson has the New model blackhawk with both .45 cylinders. I have loaded up a box of 260 grain Keith bullets with 8 grains of Unique. We have shot a lot of them, now after reading this where is that load at pressure wise?
I might not shoot that one in grandad's old Colt but you are good to go in the Ruger, Jerry. QuickLoad puts that one just above 14K psi unless you do something dramatic with seating depth.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thank you for answering, Earl. I just now sat down to the computer to pull it up; I was watching a Netflix DVD movie with my wife, "The Old Man and the Sea," the 1953 classic version with Spencer Tracy.

Any reasonable .45 Colt cast bullet load will work within the 23k Pressure limit.

For instance, this is my stoutest load for that handgun - WARNING, NOT FOR 14K PSI OLDER MODEL .45 Colts:

.45 Colt New Model Blackhawk Convertible (45 Colt/45ACP), 23k Max psi
.45 Colt cylinder, 4.63 inch barrel
280 gr. RCBS 45-270-SAA BHN 11 (Cast by Mt. Baldy bullets - out of business now)
8.5 gr. Unique, Starline Brass, FED 150 Lg. Pistol primer
Per QuickLoad: 912 fps (in my 4.63 inch barrel); 517 ft. lbs. ME
COAL 1.650 in.
Per QuickLoad: 58.2% case fill, 19,101 psi.

This type of load is reportedly an extreme penetrator for hogs, and a similar load can be found in Handloader Issure 246 (April 1970) and ShootingTimes Sept. 2012, Pg. 64. It will let you know that you are firing it, yet even this load is within the 23k limit.

Almost all of my .45 Colt loads use 8.5 Unique or similar power level and I favor 255-265 grain cast loads - all comfortably within the 23k limit. Yet they are fun to shoot, while being sufficiently powerful for anything I feel that I need.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by GunnyMack »

John I think I would give Ruger a call and get the answer from the source as to what SAFE working pressures are.
We all know of SAFE loads in one gun may not be safe in another.
I know all here have been loading/shooting for many years and have lots of experience but when a topic like this comes about I still say go get the manufacturers input.
Then get out of CA! :D
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JerryB »

Earl and John, thanks to both of you for that good information. My grandson likes that load in the Ruger and his Winchester 94 trapper. It is more than enough for anything here in Arkansaw.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

Jerry,
I am certainly glad to help.

Mack,
Good advice on both counts.

Ruger pressure:
I have repeatedly read that Ruger only recommends 14k due to liability issues, but anecdotally they have been quoted as recommending up to .45 ACP +P ammo as the maximum power for that cartridge. Then, handloading and various experimenters have extrapolated the 23k psi limit (or thereabouts) from documented pressures of that +P load.

That is all I have to really hang my hat on. I don't want to start a side argument here, but I don't care to put my trust, gun, hands and eyes to the test by experimenting with higher pressure loads recommended by followers of Mr. Linebaugh and his disciples.

But just to verify the answer that I suspect that I will receive, I will personally check with Ruger today and report back. I am recovering from some surgeries so for once I have the time. I will bet you $50 of Earlmck's retirement money that they will prescribe the 14k limit.

Leaving California:
The GOOD people are indeed leaving this beautiful Sodom in record numbers. Several friends have left; shirttail relatives are making plans but have extensive close family like me. Brother-in-law, wife and maybe a daughter or two are shopping for homes beyond these borders right now.

You have no idea how much I hate what has been done to my gorgeous, once excellent state with its former lifestyle. Medical, family, personal health of immediate family makes moving highly unlikely. Almost every day I am nagging the family to leave the corrupt and vicious environment that used to be the Golden State. There, I feel good, now; my mental enema.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by 3leggedturtle »

John, mental enema! My friend calls it Psycological Fornication. I’ve shot 250gr bullets out of my BH at 950fps. More potent than I’ll need for around here. Todd/3leg
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

Okay, Pay Attention, Please, Once and For All:

1) GunnyMack, you owe me $50.00 But you can put that money into an NRA donation, if you like.

2) Ruger's answer is still the same:
Julie at Ruger Customer Service / Revolvers line:
a) Ruger does not recommend handloads in my New Model Blackhawk Convertible manufactured June 2010 (per my serial nr).

b) Ruger allows for up to .45 ACP +P factory loads as max in the .45 ACP cylinder

c) Ruger has never nor possibly never will test the .45 Colt maximum pressure - 14k is what they recommend! Again, only factory rounds are recommended as safe. I don't know if they consider companies like Buffalo Bore as "factory," and should have asked. But my belief is that they are talking about S&W, Federal, Winchester... you know. If somebody wants to follow up with that specific question, be my guest. Then we can try to determine what psi numbers the warmer Buffalo Bore (et. al.) loads are.

d) With regards to Ruger's not testing the .45 Colt in their New Model Convertible, I pressed for a better answer, politely, and that answer is still firm: No apparent plans to provide information based upon their testing as to a load beyond the early smokeless powder pressures for the .45 Colt. This, even though I commented that I am concerned that somebody might be tempted to use 28k as the max for this handgun and get into trouble.

e) That leaves us with what I have already read in several other places:
* .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders are the same in diameter, very close to the same in amount of metal around the cartridge
* Frame is, of course, the same for each cartridge
* Lockup, safer and newer that earlier models, is the same (of course)
* .45 ACP +P is widely accepted to generate 10% more psi than .45 ACP.
* SAAMI .45 ACP +P standard is 23,000 psi
* Ergo (to make myself sound like I am one of them thar MIT geniuses):
* .45 Colt should not exceed 23k, given all of the above.
Last edited by JohndeFresno on Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

3leggedturtle wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:32 pm John, mental enema! My friend calls it Psycological Fornication. I’ve shot 250gr bullets out of my BH at 950fps. More potent than I’ll need for around here. Todd/3leg
Perzactly, Legs! That is plenty of whump.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Malamute »

The factory will never recommend or OK handloads in any caliber of their guns, not just 45 Colt. I'm sure if you asked them the same question about a large frame Blackhawk in 45 Colt , or 44 mag, the answer would be exactly the same. Factory loads suitable for the caliber marking on the gun.

I doubt any factory oks higher than standard level loads, whether "factory" buffalo bore, or whatever, they are above standard 45 Colt loads.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by piller »

Corporate Lawyers. :evil:
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by GunnyMack »

Wait huh what John? How do I OWE you 50 bucks- I never said anything about betting!!!!!!
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:04 pm Wait huh what John? How do I OWE you 50 bucks- I never said anything about betting!!!!!!
You scratched your nose when you read the post. That means "I Bid."

There is a camera on your 'puter.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by GunnyMack »

Well John you are right about the computer having a camera BUT I have hit it with a black sharpie so any image is going to be fuzzy!😀

Besides the puter ain't workin as my power is still out, no net access except thru cell signal!
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by AJMD429 »

It does sort of come back to the adage that 'if you want more power, switch to a more powerful cartridge...' Of course that's what Ruger would happily advise - they make their SuperRedhawk in 454 Casull for just that purpose.

However, it certainly IS true that there is a big gap between '45 Colt - basic SAAMI loads' and the kind of power that it seems reasonable to expect from pressures appropriate for modern firearms like the Rugers of various iterations. Certainly the reloading manuals reflect that, but the 'mainstream' firearms manufacturers probably never will be willing to endorse that power level.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

GunnyMack wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:10 pm ..I have hit it with a black sharpie so any image is going to be fuzzy!😀
😁
GunnyMack wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:10 pm ..Besides the puter ain't workin as my power is still out, no net access except thru cell signal!
Sorry, Mack. Bummer.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

AJMD429 wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm ...It certainly IS true that there is a big gap between '45 Colt - basic SAAMI loads' and the kind of power that it seems reasonable to expect from pressures appropriate for modern firearms like the Rugers of various iterations. Certainly the reloading manuals reflect that, but the 'mainstream' firearms manufacturers probably never will be willing to endorse that power level.
My concern, however: I have more than one reloading manual with a "Ruger" section. We have seen that there are several Ruger single action models.

Given the discussions above, and if my belief is correct, several of the published loads may prove to be dangerous for the mid-sized New Model .45 Ruger.

Now, enter the handloader who is following the factory reloading manual and even starts with the absolute lowest load, from the "Ruger and T/C" handgun section. Might he or she end up with a trashed gun and perhaps grievous injuries?

Remember my example of a Barnes manual's starting load? Apparently their mildest load exceeds 23k psi, possibly the top safe load to be used repeatedly in the .45 Colt New Model firearm.

I wish that some authority would step up and give us a SAAMI psi maximum value like we see for other loads.

I would add that in more than one magazine, several gunwriters have suggested three tiers of loads for the .45 Colt. But I note that one or the other of these authors' knowledge comes into question by people I know, even including one or more regulars of this forum! Something is published that is noted to be questionable or flat erroneous, and the writer's or writers' credibility is doubted.

So, we really need some factory or industry folks with their piezo-electric equipment (or other cool gadgets) to test and publish their findings for the various groups of .45 wheelguns.

I'd be glad to be the first to donate the $50 that GunnyMack owes me towards this Enterprise.
Last edited by JohndeFresno on Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by AJMD429 »

JohndeFresno wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:52 pm So, we really need some factory or industry folks with their piezo-electric equipment (or other cool gadgets) to test and publish their findings for the various groups of .45 wheelguns.

I'd be glad to be the first to donate the $50 that GunnyMack owes me towards this Enterprise.
Agreed.... (on both counts.. :D )
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by Old Savage »

Manufacturers are unlikely to go with anything except SAAMI standards.
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Re: 45 Collt Blackhawk Convertible Max PSI

Post by JohndeFresno »

FYi, in response to a more detailed question to Ruger via email:
Their official stance allows +P factory loads for the .45 ACP, but specifically do not support +P .44 or .45 Colt loads.

Here is the email reply:
"Thank you for contacting Ruger Customer Service.
Your Customer Service Issue # is 10066145

Our Firearms are designed to handle all US Industry Standard Ammunition made to SAAMI Spec including +P. with the exception of 45 Colt +P & 44 Mag +P. If you have specific questions as to whether a type of ammunition meets SAAMI specs. We recommend you contact an ammo manufacturer.

We cannot recommend using the 45 Colt +P or 44Mag +P in our guns as they are not a SAAMI cartridge. You should have no issues as long as you stay with US made, Saami spec ammo.

Please be advised, Newport Customer Service will be closed on Friday March 30th 2018. We will do our best to respond to emails and voicemails as quickly as possible upon reopening on Monday April 2nd 2018. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Ruger Customer Service"

Just as Old Savage sez.
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