Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Naphtali
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#1 Post by Naphtali » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:20 am

I choose to afford to try this two different occasions only. I have been trying to identify how effective will be three loads, two of which are muzzleloading, one a smokeless powder cast bullet cartridge. What I want to identify is how close to reality will the test medium be.

I've done my dry duct taped magazine tests to measure penetration. And I compared results with handloaded 30-06 150-grain Barnes Triple Shock bullets at a chronographed [average of] 2900 fps.

When winter ends - if it ever does here in Seeley Lake - I intend to buy a pork ham with bone left in. At ambient temperature I will fire two shots of each of the three loads at 50 yards, a total of six shots. I'll mark the location of the femur to be sure of shooting through it if the load can do it.

How close in penetration, and possibly projectile expansion, will this target emulate a shoulder shot at a legally antlered elk at the same distance? I ask about the shoulder shot because I believe this shot placement especially for muzzleloaders' single shots is more likely to significantly reduce the distance the elk might run. If this test, repeated on a different day, will not be closer to reality than any other all of us can create - excluding live target - I'll not do it and save $50-75.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson

User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2060
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#2 Post by GunnyMack » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:39 am

I think your test will show you your bullet of choice will or will not break the bone and continue.
However the front end of an animal is much different then a hind quarter. Yes there is bone and muscle but the ham test doesn't take into account of major blood vessels,lungs or the pump house.
If you are willing to spend the money to satisfy your curiosity by all means do it but I wouldn't spend my money on it. However if I was to do a test like this I'd spring for ballistic gelatin, shoot thru a store bought pork or beef shoulder bones.

Now history tells the tale, many many deer elk bears bison died just fine with black powder & pure lead... A .22 will kill a deer bear elk etc- doesn't make it right but it'll work. Here where I live we must use a minimum of 20 ga slugs for deer/ bear. I've seen deer take a .729 ounce of lead through both shoulders and run 100 yards and seen them drop DRT.
Find your load, practice making your reloads, be confident and most of all HAVE FUN while doing so.
Use enough gun and Do your part by putting lead on target and your freezer will be full!

Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1396
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#3 Post by Pisgah » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:39 am

I think you'd do well to bear in mind that in the muzzleloader days when hunters wanted a gun that would "break down" really big critters they went to big calibers -- and I mean, REALLY big, like 8 guage. It will be nice to know how your own load will act when striking bone, but to plan on bone-breaking as your main method may not be the best way to go.

Naphtali
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#4 Post by Naphtali » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:26 am

Many thanks, guys. You saved me some money. I'll remain with my penetration testing.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson

User avatar
Carlsen Highway
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#5 Post by Carlsen Highway » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:29 pm

In my opinion, the test on the ham will not be illuminating other than to tell you that your bullets will shoot straight through that ham and bone with little trouble.


If it is of any interest, last year I was shooting red deer with a .44 -40 with pure lead 200 grain cast bullets and black powder, velocities were 1125fps. At 80 yards four shots on red deer were complete pass throughs, on quartering angles. (I do not know exactly what bone was involved, but at least one shoulder bone for sure, and ribs.) Very little bloodshot meat, and exits were slightly larger than, but not much larger than entrance.

Range penetration tests on the exact same bullet and load, the results were:
Shot into eight large plastic jugs of water. Bullet blew the first one up, and then poked a .44 hole straight through the rest and kept going. (I was surprised at this, as this amount of water will catch a .270)

Shot into damp computer paper inside a cardboard box. The bullet was caught in the media and only penetrated about four inches. (Media was more dry than I wished. Bullet was mangled) I was also surprised at this too, expected it to penetrate much further.

Shot into a two inch solid pine board with a large knot in it. Bullet hit the knot and penetrated through, was turned down by the knot, and hit the dirt just behind, found lying on the ground. Very nice flattened mushroom.

What do I conclude from all this? To a cast lead bullet traveling slowly, big deer are mostly like water. After all this I think terminal ballistics at these speeds are quite different from high velocity rifles.
A person who carries a cat home by the tail, will receive information that will always be useful to them.
Mark Twain

EdinCT
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 659
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Southeast CT

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#6 Post by EdinCT » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:54 pm

Just thinking pork bones are a lot softer than Elk bones. I agree save your cash.

Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#7 Post by Malamute » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:42 am

One of the guys here that hunts professionally in Texas did some tests on freshly dead cows I believe. Trying to get as close to live animal results as possible. He concluded that the results were not exactly as he had observed the majority of time on live animals with the same loads. Just 2 hours dead changes things, and on a whole animal I believe, not a gutted carcass.

Finding a truly valid test medium had always been problematic. If even a whole animal thats only 2 hours dead doesnt behave like a live animal, then all the things we try to simulate live tissue will also have some issues. The properly constructed ballistics test gel (not clear) thats commonly used for pistol tests seems to have a close correlation to actual observed results on people shot with the same loads, and at this point its a pretty large data base of information from actual shootings to compare with, so is a fairly useful medium for testing, though it doesnt have bones or other internal inconsistencies a live body does. It does seem to be the best available at this time though. I believe most of the rest of the tests we come up with like water jugs, wet paper and such are less useful as a ballistic test medium. They can show us what expanded bullets look like, but its not always the same as they look when shot into animals etc.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Will this test achieve closest emulation of reality, excluding using live targets?

#8 Post by marlinman93 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 pm

.50 caliber round balls took down bison and elk. I wouldn't worry about testing what history has already proven.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Machado, ollogger, Ray and 8 guests