1892 feeding issues

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Tanqueray
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1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Howdy folks. I finally got a chance to shoot the two 1892 rifles I recently purchased last weekend. Shooting prone off my elbows, I was pleasantly surprised to find they both shot 1.5” 3 shot groups at 50 metres with factory ammo - a good rest and hand loads should see these groups tighten up even more so.
The one unfortunate finding was that one of the rifles has feeding issues - cartridges bind up when the bolt attempts to chamber them. Cycling both rifles side by side shows that the lifter seems to pop all the way up at full lever throw, but as soon as the lever is brought back the lifter drops a millimetre.
Is there an easy solution for this, or is it best to send it to a smith?
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.45colt
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by .45colt »

A lot of the members here prolly have the answer waiting, if not one of our sponsors is the Man for this. www.stevesgunz.com
Rusty
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Rusty »

You might consider buying the DVD from Steve's Gunz where he tells you how to set your gun up for best possible cycling.
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Steve doesn't sell international anymore, which is a shame. Can someone tell him that New Zealand is a quite civilised country, our credit cards are the same, and we have been an ally in every US war for the last century even though we have a small population. Might count for something. plenty of cowboy action shooters too.
I would love to buy his video, and also some sights, but by the time I got round to it, I couldn't do it anymore.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Tanqueray, which one are you having trouble with? I can have a look at my ones when I get home.
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JerryB
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by JerryB »

I think it might have something to do with shipping gun parts out of the U.S.
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Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm Tanqueray, which one are you having trouble with? I can have a look at my ones when I get home.
It’s the octagonal barreled rifle. I really wasn’t expecting it to shoot so well, which is great, but I can’t sell it in good conscience if it won’t feed.
I’m a bit apprehensive to disassemble it, I can envisage springs flying off into the sunset as soon as I open it up.
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Stevie
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Stevie »

there are detent notches in the receiver and a detent plunger and spring in the lifter/carrier itself. I wonder if the notches are full of crud or the detent or spring in the lifter is weak/worn or missing?

I brought a old Winchester 1892 carbine that was beyond rough back to life with money...work and research. There are a lot of parts in a 92 type action!
JerryB
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by JerryB »

Tanqueray, I have a copy of Steve's video that I don't use anymore now that my Rossi SRC .357 is running great. I would be glad to send it to you, there needs to be a copy of this in your part of the world. Send me an email with your address and I will get it mailed.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

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Stevie
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Stevie »

Make sure the screws holding the left and right cartridge guides are tight....it really does sound like the lifter detent has an issue though if the lifter is dropping down trying to chamber.
Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Looking again in the light, I can see the cartridge lifter support does have slop in the indent it is supposed to sit in, not sure if it’s due to wear or an accumulation of grime, a bit hard to see from above. The bottom of the bullet is being shaved while trying to chamber, which leads me to believe that it probably is the cartridge lifter causing the problem.
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JerryB
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by JerryB »

I'll take the 92 video to the post office in the morning, hope it helps you.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOSHUA 24:15
JerryB
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by JerryB »

Well, I got the video mailed today, hope it gets to you OK.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOSHUA 24:15
Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Thanks Jerry, you are a legend of a man!
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AmBraCol
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by AmBraCol »

Tanqueray wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:17 am Looking again in the light, I can see the cartridge lifter support does have slop in the indent it is supposed to sit in, not sure if it’s due to wear or an accumulation of grime, a bit hard to see from above. The bottom of the bullet is being shaved while trying to chamber, which leads me to believe that it probably is the cartridge lifter causing the problem.
While waiting for the video, you might try spraying the area with brake cleaner or another good degreaser, followed by a touch of oil once it dries. If it's just accumulated gunk then the degreaser may free it up a bit and the oil keep it functioning. A lot of problems are cured with simple cleaning like that. A few years ago had a Taurus 22 pistol start to double and triple at the range. It was entertaining, but there were other folks there and didn't want problems with the authorities later so grabbed a can of brake cleaner that was with my range kit and hosed it down. All kinds of crud flowed out and then it ran like a top again. The old leverguns often were carried in all kinds of conditions, and rarely were they given a thorough cleaning. This leads to decades of built up gunk causing functioning problems. Anyway, it may be worth a shot.
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.45colt
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by .45colt »

AmBraCol wrote ; "While waiting for the video, you might try spraying the area with brake cleaner or another good degreaser, followed by a touch of oil once it dries. If it's just accumulated gunk then the degreaser may free it up a bit and the oil keep it functioning. A lot of problems are cured with simple cleaning like that". + 1!!... I once bought an older model 94 Winnie that hadn't been shot much but carried and hunted a lot. the action looked like it was full of varnish from being doused with oil for years. I read here about Gun scrubber and found a can. pulled off the stock and took My time. the junk that came out of that rifle was amazing. after it dried I sprayed it with rem oil . made quite a difference .
JerryB
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by JerryB »

I wouldn't go so far as saying all of that, I just hope you can get what you need from it. Steve sure lays it out good.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOSHUA 24:15
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Mitch, sent you a PM.
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Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Well, after a pep-talk from Carlsen Highway I decided to strip, clean and reassemble this rifle. After watching a few YouTube videos on the topic I got under way. The amount of accumulated crud in the receiver was something to behold.
I noticed that cartridge lifter indent was filthy, and also has a track worn between the upper and lower indents, is this normal?
It all came apart and went back together fairly easily, the only bit that took a while was trying to get the lower tang and hammer lined up on reassembly.
I didn’t remove the cartridge guides - I wanted to try and eliminate the cartridge lifter being the issue before touching them.
Upon reassembly I found that, although much cleaner, the cartridge lifter still drops a mm when the lever is returned, although I haven’t established that this is indeed the problem.
Nevertheless, I shall persist.

Cartridge lifter indent pre cleaning:
Image

Top of the lever is colour case hardened!?
Image

Noticed that one rear arm of the cartridge lifter is slightly bent, or is this by design?
Image

Cartridge lifter indents post clearing, notice worn track between them:
Image

Image

I have a lot more admiration for John Moses Browning, the simplicity yet intricacy of the design is genius.
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

You're braver than some Mitch, Well done. I think what you should do now, is take your other one apart and see if you can spot the difference with those lifters, even try swapping parts and see what happens maybe.
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Griff
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Griff »

I don't believe that leg (upper as shown in your pic) should be bent like that... The "track" you show in the pic of the carrier detents appears to have sustained some damage at the bottom of the upper detent. Can you feel a burr or is is that just a "shiny" spot from contact?
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Stevie
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Stevie »

Yeh...the one leg of the lifter does appear bent. Did you actually take the lifter detent and spring out of the lifter and clean the hole and parts?

The detent notches don't look too bad...pretty certain my .44-40 carbine is worn similar. I did take my lifter detent out and cleaned the hole and spring...was just nasty!

What caliber and vintage is that M1892?
Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Stevie, I didn’t try remove the spring/detent from the lifter itself as I didn’t have a small enough punch to knock the pin through. The spring is quite firm (and gritty) though, I would think this is preferable than a soft spring for the issue I have.
The rifle is a 44WCF manufactured between 1895 and 1900 from the markings (SN is worn off). My other rifle is also a 44WCF, made in 1912.


Image


I had another go this afternoon, and I’m more convinced now that the issue is to do with the cartridge guides after some more sage advice from CH.
The actual bullet enters the chamber, however the bolt pushes on the rear of the cartridge, but seems to face resistance here, and is unable to push it up the ramped part of the cartridge guides. It appears to me that the rear of the cartridge needs to be slightly more elevated. I swapped the right side guide out from the other rifle to no avail.
I also tried placing shims of a few different thicknesses under the right side guide, but this didn’t seem to help either. I’m not sure whether the guides need to protrude more or less into the chamber, and want to know for certain before I start filing things.
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Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Fixed!

I put a shim between the receiver and either cartridge guide, a single thickness of coke can. The inspiration for this came yet again from Carlsen Highway, so a big thanks to him.
The lever has to be operated briskly, if one tries to feed a cartridge in slowly it’ll still jam - but I understand Browning designed it to be operated briskly.
It certainly is a relief to have it fixed, and it was great to learn a new skill in the process.

Thanks to all who had input and advice,
Mitch
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Mitch - good work.
Try another experiment - make the shim thicker, fold the peice of aluminium making two thicknesses (on one side or the other) and try that, I am picking you wont have to work it so hard to chamber, you time it right and it should feed without effort.
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Tanqueray
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Tanqueray »

Thanks James, will see how I get on. Part of me thinks that is a great idea, and part of me thinks I shouldn’t touch it now that it is working!
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: 1892 feeding issues

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I know what you mean. The magic might rub off and it'll stop working again.
It seems your on the right track, have another go at it.
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