Article by Paco...???

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.45colt
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Article by Paco...???

Post by .45colt »

A member of another forum was asking about an old article He thinks He saw on the old sixgunner site by Paco. "The 44-40 is not a postal code" .... anyone else rember it or have it? I searched for it and no luck Thanks Guys.
Rusty
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by Rusty »

There are a lot of articles over at www.leverguns.com which was our first URL here, but things change. That particular article isn't there but there is other information on the .44-40. You might also check articles by John Taffin. He put one of his books online a few years ago.
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JimT
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by JimT »

Here ya go... these were on the old sixgunner.com website .. all I have is part 2 ... I don't have part 1

44-40 NOT A ZIP CODE...PT 2

In part one of 44-40 (in Back Issues) I spoke of the Uberti handguns I have in this caliber. One a bird’s head grip and the other a standard S/A Colt type grip...both with the 4 plus inch barrels. I was amazed at these two guns because they were manufactured many years apart from each other and yet the dimensions of the parts, all 4 cylinders (2 in 44 spc. and 2 in 44-40), chamber throats and bore were all so close, and everything can be swapped out between the two without changing the group sizes and striking points. And accuracy from the 120 plus year 44-40 cartridge from both guns was outstanding.

I had originally purchased both guns with the idea that I wanted to use the second cylinders chambered for the 44 special round only. Knowing the 44 special could in modern guns be loaded to much higher ballistics than the old 44-40. Since most modern 44-40 barrels are .428/9 bore like these Uberties, I felt the 44 special ammo would perform well. And it did. But I just can’t own a gun chambered for any round and not test it to it’s fullest...and certainly I put the pair with the 44-40 cylinders thru their paces.

The 44-40 like it’s brother cartridge the 38-40...suffers an image problem. Expressed best by an incident I had back in Virginia in the early 1970s when we lived in the wild back country. A young man and neighbor who acquired a beautiful Colt S/A in 44-40 was complaining about it’s "PUNY" ballistics. He brought the gun to me to see if he could re-barrel and chamber it to 45 colt.

That part of Virginia in those days was dense with oak trees. Oak is very dense wood...tough stuff. I had hundreds of trees on my property, and we were standing 10 feet away from one that was young and about 4 to 5 inches thick. With Winchester-Western commercial ammo I started shooting at the base of the tree on the left edge drawing my shots across the to right edge in a straight line. At the fourth or fifth shot the tree came down. My young friend was happily surprised. Using a reload of a Keith 240 grain cast bullet over 15.5 grains of 2400, my young friend went on to harvest many deer with that gun in the years that followed...That’s the image that the 44-40 has, that it is somehow puny...and of course it’s not true. It’s just that we live in a time when some handguns give the ballistics of some rifles...and the 44-40 seems modest to the extreme.

I don’t think I have ever read that the 45 ACP hardball round from a 1911 was puny. If fact it is thought of as fairly substantial...in law enforcement it is considered still today as one of the ultimate rounds for defense...even compared to the hot shot 40 S&Ws and hyper Nines. Yet any sound and modern 44-40 will give better ballistics than the old 45 ACP.

And since Starline has now been manufacturing it’s strong brass in 44-40 even the old argument that the brass is weak and doesn’t last is not standing the test of time. When I was going thru my period of buying, rebuilding, re-barreling, re-chambering, and generally raising hell with Rossi lever guns...from 1977/8 thru 1989 or so...one of the nicer Rossi carbines I got a hold of was chambered for 44-40. Using Starline brass and a Keith cast bullet over 2400 powder, I get 1500 plus fps from those 250 grainers....and almost 1250 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. And the brass lasts and lasts. That’s 44 magnum handgun power, from this 20 inch carbine. Everyone should have at least one short handy rifle and a accurate load that is powerful and shoots right to the point of aim out to around 100 plus yards, and a handgun that will handle the same load. And it sure does harvest deer well. Of course as always shot placement and bullet type are very important.

I have killed a half dozen feral dogs with this round from handguns. Keith shaped slugs along with LBT shapes are excellent but we must take care with jacketed bullets that are designed for the 44 magnum. Like the 265 grain jacketed soft point. From a 44-40 revolver expansion is going to be minimal on small game like dogs and coyotes. Certainly penetration will be excellent, and the good sized meplat on this bullet will disrupt bone and flesh well.

But for small game, wide flat nosed cast is better...for vermin and varmints the very light 180 grain jacketed hollow points loaded warm make good sense. Using both Sierra and Speer 180 grain jacketed hollow points over 19 grains of 2400 gave both slugs within 20 fps of each other and at 1147 fps average for ten shoots...five of each bullet...we are talking 520+ ft. lbs of muzzle energy for the 44 WCF. Consider this a P+ load, only tight and modern Colt and Colt clone single actions should be used. Probably running around 18000 to 19000 psi...which is above the industry standard of 14000 cup.

The Lyman Reloading Book #47 page 344 gives a load of 20 grains of 2400 under a 200 grain jacketed bullet generating 19,000 cup and 1638 fps from a 24 inch pressure barrel. But ammo manufacturing industry has to worry over black powder guns....I personally would not use these loads in even a modern clone 1873 rifle. And with 19/2400/180 JHC giving 1515 fps from the Rossi levergun, I feel that’s a top load...coyotes beware.

I found ReL #7 much better than anything else in the rifle. But with all the slow powders, pistol and rifle...the primers were critical. I found the standard pistol primers were not warm enough. Because the case of the 44-40 is so weak, you can’t put a heavy crimp on it, the case will buckle...at least they did it to me. So ignition wasn’t consistent with the slower powders...I went to Winchester’s standard/magnum handgun primers and velocity and accuracy became much better.

The 200 grain bullet seems to be the standard...and they are good. But the 180s give much better ballistics, especially cast bullets. Which will give 50 to 75 fps more velocity with the same load as jacketed. Besides wide flat nose cast slugs for years have proven they are game killers.

A friend complained that his medium loads from the 44 WCF and the 44 Spc. were leading badly, and he had hardened up his alloy but it got worse....Of course it did. His medium loads were around 800 to 900 fps. Hard lead needs pressure to slug up into the bore...if it doesn’t then gas cutting occurs and leads the bore. So I got him to soften his alloy and the fouling disappeared. 11 grains of Unique under a 180 grain cast bullet gives 1104 fps from my handguns (average five shots from each gun), and if it were a load for the handgun only, this old standby powder would do the job as good as any, and better than some. But as a rifle load it reaches it’s peak too quickly for excellent velocities...running only 1318 fps from the Rossi. Blue Dot was a surprising powder in the 44-40...not giving the highest velocities but close and excellent accuracy from both handguns...and I will take accuracy over velocity every time. 14.5/BlueDot/180 cast went 1157 fps and went into an 1 and a 1/4 at 25 yards. At 75 yards the rifle put these 180s into 1 and 3/4ths inches and that is with my older eyes. With muzzle velocity of 1520 fps.

Blue Dot under a good 200 grain cast bullet is also very good. 13/Blue Dot/200 LBT went 1110 fps from the handguns and near 1500 from the rifle. Either of these loads would take deer very cleanly to 100 or so yards. Any good reloading book will give you the standard loads using fast powders like Bullseye, WW231, Red Dot and such. And for loads in the 700 to 800 fps range they are very good. But for higher velocities even in short barreled sixguns...2400 and Blue Dot are hard to beat. I bet Winchester in 1873 and Colt in 1878 when chambering the Rifle ‘73 and the handgun Mod.P never would have thought 120 plus years later we would still be reloading this cartridge. Even with all it’s failings..like weak brass...and a real dislike for some powders...it’s a good cartridge.
.45colt
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by .45colt »

Thanks Jim. :) .
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Bryan Austin
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by Bryan Austin »

Thanks guys...didnt mean to get two posts started. Any idea who the author is so I can give credit? https://www.levergunscommunity.org/down ... w&id=15884
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by JerryB »

To me the article reads as one written by the one and only PACO KELLEY !!!!!!!!
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

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JimT
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by JimT »

SAVVY_JACK wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:28 pm Thanks guys...didnt mean to get two posts started. Any idea who the author is so I can give credit? https://www.levergunscommunity.org/down ... w&id=15884
Yes. Paco Kelly wrote that.
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by Bryan Austin »

Wonderful...thanks!!!!!! :D
1894c

Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by 1894c »

JIM T -- can you get more articles written by yourself, Paco, John Taffin, and Terry Murbach on the article section of this forum. You gentlemen wrote a lot of good stuff that was on a old blog site of Paco's (fiveshot.org)...just wondering... :)
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by JimT »

30-30 wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:44 am JIM T -- can you get more articles written by yourself, Paco, John Taffin, and Terry Murbach on the article section of this forum. You gentlemen wrote a lot of good stuff that was on a old blog site of Paco's (fiveshot.org)...just wondering... :)
You can use the "Wayback Machine" ... the internet archive .. to find some of the old articles. For instance, I put in "www.sixgunner.com" and it brings up all the scans it did of that website over the years. You pick the year you want to search, then pick the month you want. In the months a day or two will be highlighted. That was when the website was scanned and recorded. Many of the old articles are on there. You can look up the old fiveshot.org site or whatever.

Just go to https://web.archive.org to get started.
1894c

Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by 1894c »

JIM T -- thank you very much....blessings... :)
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Bryan Austin
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Re: Article by Paco...???

Post by Bryan Austin »

Paco is one of several I have seen quote Lyman's #47. I have also seen a few quote Lyman's #49 too. What they post is obviously nothing new....but it is the way they present it, a skill I certainly seem to lack :-)


Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, (Double check my numbers) Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. 24" Universal receiver 1:36" twist. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Those measurements (plus some misc measurements) with Starline brass, using QL...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted.

Lyman Manual....vs...QL (Quickload) Data

grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP

Group I Rifles (Lyman lists ten rifles)
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory Velocities)

Group II Rifles (Lyman lists nine rifles).....Thats nineteen different firearms chambered for the 44-40 :-)
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities)
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication)

Personally I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations. My goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics....not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status.

Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities ( but higher than black powder pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.

For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.....the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!

PS: Not in Lymans #49 but is in #47 is the 240gr lead bullet information and Reloder 7 that produce 1,200fps at "Group I" rifle category pressures. The same info is/was listed on Lee's 44-40 reloading 3-die-set pamphlet.

Edited: Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.

CIP vs SAAMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arm ... re_testing
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