Learning the percussian Sharps

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Stevie
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Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

I got one of these early last year...a NOS IAB Sharps 1863 military carbine. I had always wanted a paper-cutter black powder .54 Sharps and got this one from a fund-raising silent auction at the Local Elks Lodge(my wife got a cool cast iron Chimenaya same auction).

I will say that I had zero experience with any sort of Sharps rifle...cartridge or otherwise...and I am not a reenactor. I've just wanted a Sharps civil war style carbine for a long time.

There is a lot to learn about breech-loading percussian arms for a guy that's used to TC muzzleloaders and cap and ball revolvers. First off...bullets that fit the IAB have been a problem. Most Sharps paper-cutter bullets are 'Christmas tree' or ring-tail style bullets made for Pedersoli or Shiloh and original Sharps carbines and rifles. Well the IAB is not any of those and has a huge bore! Despite the fact the IAB says .54 caliber on the barrel purchased bullets were just too small for any accuracy. I slugged my gun's bore and found it to be .557"/.558" groove diameter. Comercial cast ring-tail worked in my early paper cartridges...couldn't hit anything! I tried a Lee REAL self cast 380gr .54 bullet(I own a .54 TC Renegade too)...These were better but still not so hot for accuracy...the REAL bullet's taper is all wrong..just the opposite a Sharps style bullet...these designed for muzzle-loading. Any available Sharps-style bullet molds all pretty much cast the same size bullets that are too small for my huge bored IAB. That left ordering a custom bullet mold which I may do eventually. I resolved my bullet issue for the time being with a LEE .562 round ball mold...some haad suggested they used .570" musket balls..but that's a lot of led to squeeze down for the less than .560" IAB bore. The Lee mold casts a honest .562" ball from plumber's lead and the IAB chamber(which is huge like the bore!)has a nice forcing cone leading to the rifling. These work well and can get some accuracy from the self cast LEE balls.

Powder problems/gun problems!! Right off the git-go I was experiencing hang-fires/no-fires with Pyrodex RS and P...I switched to Triple 7 with no better results. Black powder is hard to get in my area..and I didn't feel like paying the haz.mat fee to mail-order the stuff. Some calling around and I found a store that actually has real BP on hand! I went and bought the first real black powder I had owned in decades!...Black powder(real stuff) pretty well solved the hang-fire/no-fire issues...to be continued(gun problems/cartridge issues next post)
Bill in Oregon
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Stevie, the guru of all the makes of paper-cartridge Sharps performance is Charlie Hahn. Almost all the guys in the North-South Skirmish Association that run Civil War Sharps firearms rely on Charlie. Give him a shout:
http://www.hahnmachineworks.com/
I briefly played with a Pedersoli many years ago, and got acceptable performance with the Lee REAL bullet, but that's a whole different barrel than your IAB.
One other thought: There's lots to be gleaned over on the N-SSA.org bulletin board.
Hope to see you getting your Sharps to perform. They are just so darned cool.
barbarossa
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by barbarossa »

I had one of the IAB percussion sharps when they first came out and couldn t hit the ground with it.Thet have a tapered chamber like the original Sharps,Shilohpercussion Sharps have a straight chamber and work well with a number of bullets especially the xmas tree type.I currently have a 63 Shiloh Sporter in 54 and have a Rapine xmas tree mold for it.NEI makes a few different diameter xmas tree molds for sharps rifles
765x53
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by 765x53 »

Just a thought, the .58 R.E.A.L. might swag down more easily than a Minie https://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-58cal-440.html
or a hallow base .54 Minie might bump up to fill the bore. https://leeprecision.com/mold-540-415-m.html
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

Ahh..Done with breakfast...will continue. Barbarossa is entirely wrong on his assessment of the IAB Sharps...I could hit the ground...the backstop...I could hit the entire planet Earth..and maybe even a barn door!...It was shooting with any sort of precision that was the issue... :shock: This not so cool with a 'grail-gun' you have always wanted.

Anyhow...gun problems. Since I knew nothing about percussion Sharps...or any breech-loading percussion long arm for that matter...I resort to researching shooting a paper-cutter Sharps. Some good info to be found and much thanks to George C Nonte Jr and his 'Black Powder Guide' second edition(is he even still alive?)...read lots of online topics too. and had a couple topics myself at Cast Bullets forums

The IAB Sharps issues...a huge bore and chamber probably #1 issue to resolve...managed to work around that to a degree. Big issue #2...after a couple outings with some reasonable success(I was able to hit the ground with ring-tail bullets designed for a petite bored Pedersoli Sharps)..was still plagued by hang-fires. Then I had a mis-fire...by which I mean a rock-solid just won't fire no matter how many musket caps you burn on the nipple misfire!! This with a paper-cutter style cartridge with the end clipped off and powder goes everywhere when you open the breech...I get the thing unloaded and loose powder cleaned out of the action(I carry an unloading stick now..something to push the bullet/cartridge out)....I put a small square of paper towel over the bore with gun vertical and pop a cap...cap blast blows a hole in the paper towel??...I reload the Sharps and try again...same thing..solid misfire...I put some powder in the nipple and get it to fire with a hang-fire.

"What the hey??" I recall watching a utube video where a fellow with the exact same model/brand Sharps had similar issues...his issue was caused by metal chips in the breech-block firing channel...at least one other reference to IAB Sharps firing problems caused by machining debris in the breech block I read online. Sure enough..I stripped down the breech block and cleaned it out with brake-cleaner and compressed air and got a rather long drill-shaving out of it. My guess being that the metal chunk was likely trapped by the clean-out screw and released when I cleaned to fire channel. Got blown around the inside of the breech until it got stuck in the outlet hole(whatever you call the flash hole that opens into the barrel?)...The machine burr removed from the breech block really helped with the hang-fires too...even with Pyrodex. Although I was still experiencing some hang-fires it wasn't nearly as bad an issue.

After the metal chip in the breech issue..I rediscovered real deal black powder...Graf and Sons(Wano I've heard)...actually somewhat cheaper than Pyrodex/777...Thank you H&H Gun Range in OKC for keeping such dangerous stuff in inventory!!...They have musket caps too. No more issues with hang-fires...cured with black powder.

Accuracy and cartridge making/nitrating...maybe some questions next post(I got a bad sprained wrist)
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

Something I will say that's a good feature on this particular IAB Sharps is that it does not have the lever leaf-spring that requires the inlet in the forearm and the notch in the lower/front of the receiver. I guess that historically these areas could accumulate loose powder and potentially blow the forearm apart! The IAB receiver front is solid and no inlet for a leaf-spring. The lever spring being a simple coil spring with a lever detent. Powder can and will pile up at the bottom front...but I doubt it would be enough to do much.

IAB Sharps military carbine accuracy...abysmal with .542" ringtails(I think these are 475gr)...these bullets likely a perfect fit in a Pedersoli .54 Sharps. The LEE REAL 380gr .54 caliber bullets are better and I may re-visit these in the future...they're still too small and taper the wrong way. I cast some in plumber's lead instead of 1/20 alloy and they would group to a degree(flyers)....Anyway..buying the LEE .562 round ball mold and casting some plumber's lead balls got me on paper. The Graf&Sons black powder works so much better than the BP subs by nixing the hangfires also drastically helps accuracy. The IAB will at least hit a target at 50 yards now.

The carbine's sights stink! The rear is a rather crudely made facsimile of the original Civil War era carbine sight. I can probably live with the rear sight. The front sight is way too short and the IAB hits really high(I was warned of this phenomenon)...I think "no big deal..I will simply drive out the front sight pin and install a taller sight blade"...Well no. There ain't no front sight blade pin to drive out. The front sight is milled one piece with the mount brazed to the barrel...My options here being grind-off the front sight blade down to the wide base and slot the base lengthwise with a Dremal cut-off wheel and install a blade 'original Sharps style'...that or cut a dovetail in the thick part of the front sight...or fabricate a sheet metal front sight and superglue it on the unaltered front sight. I opted for the latter mainly in the name of research and to avoid chopping around on my Sharps carbine. It's amazing what you can make with a pork and beans can..a small nail for a front bead...some minor hand tools...super glue and a Sharpie(for color). The 'new' temporary front sight actually looks pretty good and is close to the needed height for 50yd plinking. Has not fell off yet. The IAB carbine is at least plink-worthy now.

I noticed 765x53 ideas for bullets in an above replay...These are some ideas I had not considered!!...Many thanx for all the responses...have me pondering bullet alternatives beyond a $100 plus custom mold!

My paper cartridges...nitrating paper and such...I'll get started. My very first cartridges were made from Abilene Machine catalog pages and were non-nitrated. They were also 'paper-cutter' style where the Sharps breech trims the back off when closed. I abandoned these fairly quick for any number of reasons..including chunks of paper remaining in the bore after a shot and danger of grass fires from smoldering paper flying down-range. My cartridges have been in a continuous state of evolution from day one. So far my best info has been from the Black Powder Guide...describes a reasonably simple nitrated or cigarrett paper tube with a light tissue paper base glued in. These are flush fit..as in stuff them in and the cap fires right through the tissue paper...no breech block cutting needed unless the cartridge is a bit too long or the chamber fouled.

There is a lot to learn about combustable cartridges and the Sharps...I will continue...
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GunnyMack
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by GunnyMack »

Try Swiss BP, it has shown better performance than Goex for our front stuffers. Better velocities & easier cleaning.

As for your paper cartridges you are on your own!- but please keep us informed about your progress!! Interesting topic.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:40 am Stevie, the guru of all the makes of paper-cartridge Sharps performance is Charlie Hahn. Almost all the guys in the North-South Skirmish Association that run Civil War Sharps firearms rely on Charlie. Give him a shout:
http://www.hahnmachineworks.com/
I briefly played with a Pedersoli many years ago, and got acceptable performance with the Lee REAL bullet, but that's a whole different barrel than your IAB.
One other thought: There's lots to be gleaned over on the N-SSA.org bulletin board.
Hope to see you getting your Sharps to perform. They are just so darned cool.
Yes...I got some ideas basicaly stolen from Hahn Machineworks. I've been interested in the Hahn tubes...however I've not got a bullet suitable for his tubes. Mr.Hahn's tubes are so constructed they don't need nitrated...supposedly bust into pieces and disharge out the bore as confetti. He has some pics and a small tutorial on finishing and loading his tubes at his website. Except for the materials his tube is made from...that's pretty much how my latest gen paper cartridges are manufactured.

I actually make my tubes as per George C Nonte's 'Black Powder Guide'...chapter 17 Early Breechloaders and Cartridge Guns....This chapter gives a brief description of several more popular percussion breech-loaders and the cartridges....also has extensive tutorials on manufacturing paper cartridges...pics and everything! Mr.Nonte must've condidered paper cartridge muzzle-loaders as 'cartridge guns' because he has extensive info on making cartridges for such arms.

http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread ... g-job-quot
Here is a link to a topic where I got considerable info about o"ring Sharps breech blocks and other ideas. I will say that the IAB gas-check part is nothing like the pictured parts in this topic(probably Pedersoli parts)...however the principal is the same. If you read this entire N-SSA forum topic...you will find some reference to filling the breech/gas check cavity with grease to provide longevity of shooting without tear-down for cleaning....This really works! I could get from 8-12 shots before the breech got too tight to open....Fitting an o"ring and filling my block with my Emmert's lube and I have fired as many as 25 shots with the breech opening as easy as ever. I'm not sure just how many shots the gun could go before locking-up....25 shots and there was still a lot of lube in the breech cavity...This a huge improvement...HUGE I tell-ya!
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

More ramblings about shooting percussion Sharps.... https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Perc ... 16-386845/?

Here is another archived thread with some useful info...or at least info I found useful...there are some good pics of 'Sharps paper-cutter' cartridges here. Also a good pic of my style gas-check plate with the huge cavity. I don't have a photo hosting ability these days or I would post some pics of my IAB carbine. Anyhow...I managed to find a skinny O"ring that would fit that cavity(no gun-smithing required)..then melted some of my thick 'Emmert's' lube and poured the cavity full(as recommended in several posts I Bing searched). Anyhow...although my Emmert's lube is fairly thick(probably about 60% beeswax and takes heat well)..I really figured it would blow out of the breech cavity first shot or so...and launch my O"ring out the bore! Well?...It doesn't work that way. Like I stated in previous post..after 25 shots of 70gr 2F with the LEE .562" round ball(265gr ball weight) the Sharp's replica was still opening and closing fine. There is probably still half or better of the high wax lube still in the breech block cavity!

The rubber O"ring puts a little tension/spring effect to the gas-check plate and helps seal it to the barrel...the lube protects the O"ring and seems to help keep the plate/barrel joint lubed and sliding. More importantly the O"ring/lube keeps the gas-check plate from getting fouled-up with crud which renders the breech in-operable/stuck. Like I posted earlier..without the O"ring and breech block full of lube(just grease on and behind the plate)...the carbine was only good for maybe 8-12 shots. I don't really understand why the Emmert's lube doesn't just blast out the bore...I guess the pressure of a shot keeps it in place although some does disappear.

Cartridges and tools/materials to make them.....I have a 'Winchester' shotgun tube magazine capacity limiting stick/dowel-rod...this dowel says right on it for models 01, 97,12 2 3/4" and 3"...I think I removed it from a Mossberg 500 12ga. Whatever else this dowel rod is useful for..it is near perfect for rolling .54 Sharps cartridge tubes. The dowel is also useful for seating balls and bullets in the Sharps chamber and marking how long to fabricate a paper tube for whichever particular bullet. Another useful and necessary dowel rod to have is one that's smaller and longer than the Sharp's barrel. This dowel I call the 'unloading rod'...used to push out a loaded cartridge for re-use..or to clear the chamber of a mis-fired round or remnant's of such. Occasionally I use it to push hunks of burnt paper out the chamber or bore.

Other required or handy tools are a paper cutter for trimming cartridge paper to width..of course scissors and a tape measure. Glue..I use Elmer's craft stick glue for tubes and clear nail polish to stick the tissue paper end in a cartridge tube. I made a card-wad punch from an old Alemite grease-gun tip..it works fairly well although I should probably buy something better. I also use a 7.7mm Japanese cartridge case to help get a nice fit to the tissue paper plug in the paper tube...and a pair of needle-nose pliers to dip my paper strips into the nitrating solution.

Materials for flush-fit cartridge tubes....I have been using a heavy weight bond paper for tube fabrication(I have the stuff on hand for those rare occasions where I paper-patch bullets)...this sort of paper is fairly tough and holds up well to soaking in nitrate solution. I have not tried cigarette papers(supposedly no nitrate needed)...other paper I have tried to nitrate turns to mush or not very tear resistant. Tissue paper is just the standard stuff from Wal Mart like you would use to stuff a gift sack and the like. I have actually nitrated the tissue paper too but it's fragile and mushy to nitrate...doesn't seem all that necessary to nitrate it. I use empty cartridge boxes to punch card-wads from. That's about it for materials and tools....except for lead...bullet molds...powder and caps...lube...normal black-powder shooting stuff.
765x53
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by 765x53 »

The book "Sharps Rifle, The Gun That Shaped American Destiny" by Martin Rywell is really just a collection of advertisements, catalogs, owners manuals, and letters of recommendation.
There are at least two reprints of company instructions for making paper cartridges for both rifle and shotgun. Surprisingly the use of nitrated paper is never mentioned. Fireing instructions advise wiping the chamber with a finger to remove embers before loading the next cartridge.
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

I do think nitrated paper causes more bore fouling than non-nitrated paper. Using super-glue as cartridge glue as some advise...sometimes left tough to remove 'streaks' in the bore...for some reason Elmer's stick glue and nail polish don't.

My biggest beef with the non-nitrated paper is grass fires! I didn't like the chunks of paper stuck in the bore either..but I could push those out. Sometimes substantial chunks of paper(smoldering paper) would launch 10-15 yards and I had to stomp a couple small grass fires...I quit that paper

It's not like there is nothing left of a nitrated paper cartridge either...there are remnants both in the bore and on the ground. However there is a lot less and it doesn't seem to be smoldering(which is weird 'cause burning a piece of nitrated paper it acts like a slow fuse!)...I would say there is still some danger of fire down range from a shot...but a lot less paper left that doesn't travel far

https://leeprecision.com/mold-540-415-m.html I think I might buy one of these molds suggested as a possible serviceable bullet by 765x53. I'm not certain it will work in the Sharps...or my Renegade for that matter. But I think it might be a viable deal!...I appreciate the idea
Stevie
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Stevie »

Odd things about shooting a percussion Sharps....I've always tried to be a safe black powder shooter...and one of the safety rules has always been not to leave any air-space in the load...as in be sure ball and powder are seated tight in the breech/barrel/cylinder. Fine and dandy with a muzzle-loader....not possible with a breech loading Sharps. For one thing the breech has a fair size cavity about chamber size and 1/4" deep. The bullet just crams up into the forcing cone of the chamber it's not like it's actually engaged in the rifling. There is going to be air gap in the load.

Just using a loose bullet and fill chamber with powder.....The flimsy 'Sportsman Guide' destruction manual that came with my Sharps carbine suggests this is a viable way to shoot the gun...others recommend it too instead of fabricating cartridges. The Sportsman Guide destruction manual also recommends 60-80gr loads of 2F...cautions against any heavier charge than 80gr powder. I did some chamber volume checking just to see how much powder could be dumped into the IAB chamber with a bullet seated. The store bought ringtails seat rather deep...all but the biggest driving-band and the ringtail band in the bore. about 140 grains of powder will fill the chamber to the top! The Lee REAL and the .562 round ball leave about the same chamber capacity of approx. 120 grains powder! Wow! That's a lot of powder. I suppose a much smaller powder charge could dumped in...but 70gr powder on top a bullet looks like a lot of empty space. The no air-space in a black powder rifle load safety rule goes out the window with a breech loading percussion Sharps!

Brass cartridges/chambers as offered for Pedersoli Sharps I don't think will work in the IAB. I had thought about fabricating my own brass chamber inserts..but chickened-out as I worried they might be driven back into the hollow breech cavity and lock-up the gun! That or get stuck(knock it out with my 'un-loading rod')
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Hawkeye2
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Re: Learning the percussian Sharps

Post by Hawkeye2 »

Stevie, the Sharps was designed to be shot with less than a full chamber so an air space is not an issue. Unless you enjoy punishment 60 to 80 grains in a carbine ceases to be fun real fast. You will find 40 to 45 grains of 2 or 3f will be a very accurate load or at least it is for most Sharps shooters I know. Pushing a bullet into the chamber and then following it with loose powder is a real pain in the posterior and defeats the reason for owning a Sharps unless you are just trying a load.
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