OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

This is definitely not Leverguns related, but this forum is where I spend my time and trust the input of Levergunners and (in this case) LE, ex-peace officers, and or friends who work in the Courts - especially Oklahomans.

Close friend agrees to transport some furniture in a Penske U-Haul truck for a lady who is moving from my crazy state to Michigan. She is reimbursing him for the expenses and has offered him a small stipend for his time and efforts. He is not a commercial transporter or hired by any transport or shipping company; he is a home repair guy and is actually doing this for more of a favor since he has done things for this lady in the past.

A sign on the highway in Beckham County demands all trucks, box trucks, and rental transport vehicles to pull over to the scales. He is a law abiding citizen and does so. His truck is a tad overweight (25999 reg. weight, his is 29980). OK, guilty - no argument.

But he is interrogated by Officer Hicks (Badge 98) who asked him in various ways if he was a transporter or mover (words to that effect, not a quote). My friend is honest as the day is long, and could have said that "it's my furniture," but he stated honestly that he was moving it for a lady who asked him to do so as a favor, and who was paying him for his time and effort. In other words, he was acting as a friend and being reimbursed for expenses the time that he and his daughter were sacrificing to get this lady moved.

He was cited for:
1) "No Current Fuel License or Decal (in his rented truck) and forced to pay a substantial fee using the "sticker number of the rental truck" before he was allowed to proceed further down the road.

2) Several violations involving something to the effect of "Transporter or Moving Business Unlicensed." Blast it, I photographed the paperwork to come home and type this info, but captured the wrong pages that start with "Oklahoma Corporation Commission, Transportation Division, Motor Carrier/Registration/Fuel Violations with an Oklahoma City Address. I would have to guess that this was the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, or whatever the State Traffic officers call their agency.

I can look at the paperwork again tomorrow, but I promised my friend that I would try to find out if this is all legal or if it is a very unfair speed trap type scam by the officer to make points with his superiors. I have never heard of this happening anywhere, ever, in my LE career. However, my friend was told by a friend something like, "Yes, that's Oklahoma for you," indicating that this was the way that these State(?) officers do business with folks entering their turf.

My good friend needs help, because he wants to know if he has grounds to protest these seemingly unmerited citations. Something does not smell right to me.

Anybody know anything about this? Is it true that if you receive, say, $1 for moving somebody's stuff through OK in a rented truck, that they have the legal right to smack you with several hundred dollars of fines and demand that you pay for a sticker (I think it was $160) to continue past the scales??

If requested, I can re-examine the paperwork and get the exact wording; but I suspect that somebody on this forum knows all about this, and whether it is an outrageous abuse of power by that officer or if it is just an equally outrageous law forced upon unsuspecting sojourners by the great state of Oklahoma.

Any help is appreciated, or even a citation from the Oklahoma Vehicle Code or whatever source has been used for these fines.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Blaine »

Wow....That's quite the load of Chicken Pelosi.... :evil:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31938
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by AJMD429 »

One more reason I vote Libertarian on state and local tickets.. :| Even some RINOtards support idiotic regulations like that, and of course the LibTards just LOVE rules and regulations and fees and fines... :evil:
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Yes, I am holding my hands over both ears so that folks can't see the steam coming out. This kind of stuff can turn good citizens into cop haters.
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Griff »

John, as much as I hate to say it, even CA has such regulations that must be complied with when operating as a "for hire" carrier. Fuel tax regulations vary from state to state, and are a part of the IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement), between Canada & the USA. Each state requires permits to operate commercial vehicles in/thru their jurisdictions. Like you, as a Deputy Sheriff, I paid little attention to commercial vehicles, as most states use their version of the "Highway Patrol" to enforce commercial vehicle regulations. And do so at their weigh stations. Plus, many states, incl. NM, OK, MO, TN & TX, and some others (but those are the most visible), will often target rental trucks as they have historically been popular in drug trafficking.

And, as much as I hate to say it, he's probably in violation of at least 3 federal Department of Transportation regulations. At 26,001 lbs gross vehicle weight, he's subject to those. They include log books, registration with DOT as a commercial carrier & insurance regulations.

Actually, he's lucky they didn't require him to rent another truck and put part of his cargo in it to complete the trip. An expensive education.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15189
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by piller »

If the laws weren't on the books, and hadn't been written badly in the first place, then it probably wouldn't have been an issue. I find the "There ought to be a law" crowd to be a horrible bunch of people who cause a lot of stupid laws to be written just to control others. My Mother in law is one of those. She wants a new law written every time something happens which she disagrees with.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Ysabel Kid
Moderator
Posts: 27790
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Ysabel Kid »

BlaineG wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:20 am Wow....That's quite the load of Chicken Pelosi.... :evil:
And politicians wonder why we hate them so much! :evil:
Image
User avatar
Ysabel Kid
Moderator
Posts: 27790
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Ysabel Kid »

JohndeFresno wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:36 am Yes, I am holding my hands over both ears so that folks can't see the steam coming out. This kind of stuff can turn good citizens into cop haters.
+ 1

Enforcing stupid laws makes LEO's look bad, is a waste of their time, and is a bane of their existence...
Image
User avatar
Ysabel Kid
Moderator
Posts: 27790
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Ysabel Kid wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:28 am
JohndeFresno wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:36 am Yes, I am holding my hands over both ears so that folks can't see the steam coming out. This kind of stuff can turn good citizens into cop haters.
+ 1

Enforcing stupid laws makes LEO's look bad, is a waste of their time, and is a bane of their existence...
But again, I blame the politicians first!
Image
Stevie
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:47 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Stevie »

I do know that commercial vehicles and trucks need various licenses and fuel stamps plus whatever insurance requirements for state to state transport. These requirements vary by state.

Best to have your ducks in a row...or cross state lines somewhere besides the main drag where the weigh stations are! Companies I've worked for would plot the route and buy the licences ahead of time. Saves your truck driver much grief

Would seem that Oklahoma considers the furniture moving handy-man a commercial moving company that did not bother to weigh his vehicle or obtain his licences/permits

Often the state weigh stations are un-manned....however I40 across Oklahoma has been a hot bed of drug smuggling recently with numerous drug busts. I imagine ODOT are closely scrutinizing any vehicles considered suspicious. Also a lot of out of state contractors working in the Oklahoma oil field and wind energy projects...not all are in compliance with Oklahoma's commercial trucking regulations...LEO's have been busy!
jdad
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3434
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Oregon

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by jdad »

Ask one of the truckers here like Griff what happens if you drive a commercial truck into CA that's deemed "too old" according to CARB.

Here's the regulation https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel ... RegSum.pdf
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Rusty »

As one who is a professional truck driver and had to deal with DOT, I'd say your friend is pretty much toast. He violated the spirit and the letter of the law. He admitted he was doing it for pay. That's what the law is set up to catch. People running a business without proper credentials.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thanks, Griff. But I see a problem with this one-time thing. I suppose because my friend was so straightforward, he did not get fined more. Who the heck knows all this?? As a cop for over 32 years, I never knew that if I moved Granny's furniture and accepted, say, $100 plus meals for a nationwide trip in a U-Haul that I would get a criminal record and such a huge fine!!

Yes, jdad, Griff came to California and did a shoot in Fresno, and I had the honor of meeting and dining with him but had commitments that I could not disengage from so I did not get to see him shoot. He told me that this was probably the last time he was coming to Calforlornyou because of the draconian regulations on trucks.

And thank you, Rusty, for the info. This was a one-time favor to a person of limited means, not a business, but sadly I get it. Having worked with various regulatory agencies, I understand the letter of the law, but also understand the spirit of the law and view this a bit differently.

For instance, when I worked for DMV Investigations (as a State Fraud Investigator) we cracked down heavily on folks who kept building up and reselling cars from their residence for profit as unlicensed dealers - we shop undercover, impound the cars and prefer criminal charges - but on a one-time mom and pop thing we did nothing. In fact, they could sell a specified number of cars a year, by law. And there were other regulatory agencies that I worked with in similar arenas, such as the Contractors Board, with similar considerations. So I cannot agree with your premise of crucifying a guy with a $600 fine, and it looks like a criminal record, with a rented truck moving somebody's valuables one time in his life; but understand your point of view as a professional. And although Oklahoma may not have the vast array of computer databases that you see with California law enforcement, I have not doubt in this day and age that they cannot track (and in fact DO track) repeat offenders.

I will forward this information to my friend. Were my friend not such an honest soul -a Believer - he could have just lied (like most folks do) and avoided the huge fine. But thank you again for the straightforward info.

Got the paperwork again:
1) ...."did unlawfully operate" - Vehicle make, license description (! a legally rented truck !)
"OPERATING AS AN INTERSTATE MOTOR CARRIER, FREIGHT FORWARDER, LEASING COMPANY OR BROKER WITHOUT AN ACTIVE INTERSTATE USDOT NUMBER, OAC 165:30-10-1 Bond Amt: $300.00"

2) ..."did unlawfully operate" - Vehicle etc.
"Goods: FURNITURE..."
"FAILURE TO REGISTER A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE. 47 0.S. 1115 Bond Amt: $175.00"

3)..."did unlawfully operate" - Vehicle etc.
"NO CURRENT FUEL LICENSE OR DECAL, 68 0.S.607.1 Bond Amt: $175.00"

So: Oklahoma legislators and LE, you can stand tall and be proud that you thoroughly fleeced an upstanding citizen for insulting your trucking industry while stuffing your coffers with this honest working man's family funds. As a retired LE officer (county and state agencies), you have the respect from me that you so richly deserve. Per the Rogers and Hammerstein song, I would have to say that Oklahoma is not "OK" with me.
Chuck 100 yd
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: Ridgefield WA. USA

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

A good deed never goes unpunished.
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Stevie wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:31 am ...Would seem that Oklahoma considers the furniture moving handy-man a commercial moving company that did not bother to weigh his vehicle or obtain his licences/permits...LEO's have been busy!
Yup. But apparently, one LEO had too much time on his hands.
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Griff wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:12 am ..many states, incl. NM, OK, MO, TN & TX, and some others (but those are the most visible), will often target rental trucks as they have historically been popular in drug trafficking...An expensive education.
Agree with the 2nd part of the above quote. And take Oklahoma as a place to visit off my bucket list.

I told my friend about the drug trafficking and it even got him more upset. He said, "They didn't even look into my truck!!" So they were just too busy giving him the shaft and making money from his mistake at stopping at the scales.
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Rusty »

As an aside your friend might be able to get some money from the rental company as it should be their responsibility to have the required fuel stickers in place.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thanks, Rusty. Forwarding this information to him.
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by jeepnik »

The states primary motivation is revenue generation.

Here if you own a pickup you have to register it as a commercial vehicle and pay weight fees. Why? Because if you carry anything in it you are "competing with a commercial carrier".

Folks have tried for years to get the law changed, but surprisingly the legislators won't bend. :twisted:
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31938
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by AJMD429 »

This REMINDS me of when the authorities wanted to call a one-time event of drilling and tapping a scope mount for a friend who didn't own a proper drill-press "firearms manufacturing"......

The "letter of the law" may say it is that, but it doesn't pass the smell-test.... :|
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Griff »

jeepnik wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:28 pm The states primary motivation is revenue generation.
Here if you own a pickup you have to register it as a commercial vehicle and pay weight fees. Why? Because if you carry anything in it you are "competing with a commercial carrier".
Folks have tried for years to get the law changed, but surprisingly the legislators won't bend. :twisted:
Put a camper shell on, toilet & sink in it and it's register-able as an RV. When I was horse-shoein' in SoCal, a Santa Ana PD officer stopped me in my brand new p/u (with commercial plates), a whole bunch of shoes, and all my farrier equipment. He tried to cite me for not having a rear bumper. The law requires them on passenger cars... he kept telling me that my bench seat was meant for passengers... ergo, passenger vehicle. I finally got him to request a supervisor... the Sgt. came out... and proceeded to read him the riot act... to the effect, "...you were on a court errand you stupid, incompetent..." and it devolved from there into several somethings not fit for print), "...and what about 'you are NOT authorized to make car stops or attempt to enforce the law,' don't you understand?"

I love Texas! My last p/u was 2 years old when I moved from CA to TX... my CA tags were $540/year. And my TX "farm" plates were $46. They've increased all the way to $56 on the p/u that's 17 years newer than the one I moved with! But, don't kid yourself, we have our fair share to stupid laws. And more than enough stupid legislatures!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
claybob86
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:41 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by claybob86 »

Rusty wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:03 pm As one who is a professional truck driver and had to deal with DOT, I'd say your friend is pretty much toast. He violated the spirit and the letter of the law. He admitted he was doing it for pay. That's what the law is set up to catch. People running a business without proper credentials.
Exactly. Being reimbursed for expenses is one thing. Being compensated for your time means you're engaged in a commercial enterprise, and therefore are subject to the rules, regulations, fees, taxes, etc. that come with that. It's not a favor if you're getting paid for it.
Have you hugged your rifle today?
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by JohndeFresno »

Ray wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:22 pm ...If there was ever a case of just a simple prevarication by an otherwise scrupulous man to avoid such nonsense then this was it....

Not being a commercial driver my first question is why would he stop to begin with ?.....
Yes, Ray, he is honest as the day is long. He stopped because the sign said "All trucks and rented trucks" or similar words. Since this was a one-time thing and he is not a "professional" gyppo unlicensed driver, he did not think he was doing anything wrong. In fact, he was accompanied by his young daughter in another car who put up with two anti-social dogs and a cat and had a pretty tough time of it all.

My friend took several days out of his life for an old lady and left it up to her if she wanted to reimburse him a small amount. I know how he is.

But I get it now that my friend is "toast," after getting the above input. Like he says, it is not worth driving all the way to Oklahoma to fight these citations (for which he had to pay bail with his Master Card) and then possibly lose the court battle, anyway - even if the judge mitigated the $650 fines. He is a good man and yet truly believes that he got the shaft by an overreaching official. I do too, under the circumstances. And now he has a record. Regs or not, I am extremely underwhelmed by the professionalism - or call it understanding or compassion or wisdom - shown by that cop.

Now for those of us who believe in the exact letter of the law in every case (instead of the spirit and meaning of a good law), pity that truck driver who has a minor error in his logbook, if he meets Hicks #98 in Oklahoma. And of course, no transporters would dream of keeping more than one logbook, eh? It's illegal.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: OT (Help Needed) Oklahoma Citation for Moving Furniture??

Post by marlinman93 »

Unfortunately he's probably not going to beat this. Being an honest guy means he felt he had to tell the truth, so they cited him. If his load hadn't been overweight, they probably wouldn't have even asked any questions, and he'd have not felt obliged to give honest answers. But as silly as it seems, it is the law in Oklahoma, so the weighmaster is simply enforcing it.
We have the same law here in Oregon, but no signs at the scales saying rental trucks need to stop. So in Oregon he'd have sailed past, and only gotten caught if he was speeding.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Post Reply