Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

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Pete44ru
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Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by Pete44ru »

.

It look like Remington's business model has tanked, underestimating customer demand. :cry:

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq- ... 71117.html

Remington Outdoor, the second-largest U.S. gunmaker has suffered a “rapid” and “sharp” deterioration in sales and a similar drop in profits since January, and faces “continued softness in consumer demand for firearms,” credit analysts at Standard & Poor’s Global Ratings said in a report Friday.

S&P as a result has cut the company’s corporate credit rating — already at a junk-bond-level CCC+ — two full notches, to CCC-, a move likely to make the company’s high-yield debt less attractive to investors and lenders, and force Remington to pay more in interest. The company could face a change in control, bankruptcy, or default on its debt by next year.

A backlog of unsold, unwanted firearms will force Remington to operate at a loss and “pressure the company’s sales and profitability at least through early 2018, resulting in insufficient cash flow for debt service and fixed charges,” unless Remington gives up cash to pay for ongoing operations, S&P adds.

S&P expects “a heightened risk of a restructuring” of Remington’s $575 million senior secured loan and asset-based lending facility, which it is supposed to pay back in 2019.

If Remington defaults on its payments, based on the company’s current value, S&P expects first-lien creditors may receive around 35 cents back from every dollar they have lent or invested. Lower-rated creditors would get back less, or nothing.

Default is not yet “a virtual certainty,” the report added.




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wecsoger
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by wecsoger »

Sadly, we posted about all this before.

Business 'gurus' who absolutely know how to run a business take over.

They buy other companies, Marlin for ex., because they know how to run a business and make money.

They move business locations around because they know how they can be more efficient - leaving older, experienced workers behind.

They have multiple high-profile product failures, the 9mm R51 and 870.

Another classic Brand name is ruined by huge quality control issues.

Yet the 'business guys' may have no clue as to how they got to this point.
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jeepnik
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by jeepnik »

Yep following the life span of a company.

Started by visionary. It becomes too large for them so they hire business men to run it. They want to increase profits so they increase production and do so by decreasing quality. Profits drop.

The business men hire accountants to bring profits back up. The eliminate highly qualified workers and replace them with unskilled labor. They mandate lower quality raw materials and lesser quality finished products. Profits drop more (this is where Ruger is now).

Then the businessmen and accountants hire lawyers to handle the bankruptcy and dissolution of the company (this is where Remington is now).

Can both be saved. Yes, but not without a serious commitment to surviving (higher quality products and better customer service) in lieu of short term profits.

The thing is, there are no visionaries in either company. The folks running them really don't care about the survival of the company as long as they get their money. These types of businessmen, accountants and lawyers just move on to the next soon to be dead company. Natures scavengers have more class.

Think about it. Berretta is doing well and has for hundreds of years. Why? Family owned and family operated. And here tell they treat their employees like family. You know the way Winchester, Remington, S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc. used to do.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jeepnik
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by jeepnik »

There are sadly fewer and fewer firearms owners that are "into" the sport. More and more are owning firearms for self defense. This means that many of those owners will own one maybe two firearms.

Between better quality (as compared to today's products) used firearms and the number of firearms manufacturers now available to the buyer companies like Remington need to step up their game. But they aren't. They are doing exactly the opposite of what they should.

The quality of their product has dropped when they should be doing everything they can to make sure that every firearm that leaves the plant is as perfect as they can make it. This means quality control all the way through the manufacturing process and a final quality control that rivals that of their heyday.

But quality costs money. So, they won't make as much on any given firearm. This doesn't sit well with the profit for profit's sake drive mentality of the powers that be.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by Blaine »

IMO, trying to make One Of Everything usually doesn't work out all that well. They tooled up for a bubble that everybody knew would not last.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by AJMD429 »

The same 'cycle' has happened in health care.

Remington made too many "just like _____ but it says 'Remington' on it" guns lately. As others have said, they should have made the things they made best, and improved them. I know 'everybody' has to make AR's, but if you can't make one significantly better than the ones already out there, don't bother.

There was a nice write-up about SIG firearms in the December American Rifleman, and they were so out-of-touch for awhile that the company sold for a dollar as part of a package deal, just to get rid of it. THEN they got new management, a focused mission, and now have gained tons of market share and in the process an improved reputation.

SIG's business model was not what I'd have thought would work - they greatly expanded product lines into areas they'd not tread before, but so far it seems to be working.

It's hard for ANY business to thrive in a world where 'regulators' can with the stroke of a pen create or destroy large corporations, but if you stick with a product or service that a significant number of people want, and provide dependable stuff to the consumer at reasonable prices, it sure helps.

One thing with firearms, is they generally last almost forever - if taken care of, a gun made now should last hundreds of years, and even if shot a lot, usually there aren't too many parts that actually need replaced. Most guns that are taken out of circulation are likely neglected to the point of being chunks of rust, or are simply lost. Maybe some cheaper ones that have a part break that isn't to be found, and the gun isn't worth repair. During the 20th Century, we had a population rapidly expanding, and increasing in wealth as capitalism worked its magic, but now we have a population that is expanding less, and socialism has caused less economic mobility, so combine that with a generation that is content to watch 'nature shows' on television instead of going out to hike, shoot, and hunt, and the 'gun supply' needed stagnates some as well.

If Marlin went to making just their leverguns (even though their other guns are nice), and Remington just stuck with bolt-actions and a couple basic versions of modular shotguns, and the AR portion of the company just stuck to a particular niche within that area, it might help.

My advice is surely worth almost as much as what they're paying me for it, of course... :D
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rodeo kid
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by rodeo kid »

Everything I read in the above posts makes sense. But to me the real reason several gun makers are in trouble is we are not buying firearms at the level they planned on. They planned on a Clinton victory and panic buying. The Trump win ruined that. Just my two cents. God Bless.⛪
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wecsoger
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by wecsoger »

You have a point, but...

We're coming off eight years of *the* best gun salesman ever...and if you thought the good times were going to keep rollin', then you deserve to go out of business.

Gander Mountain couldn't even stay in business selling guns during barry o's regime. So that tells you something about how they were run.

If you're basing your business model on selling black rifles, also you deserve to go down. I swear, we're not to the point if you buy some little .22 plinker, they'll force you to take a M4 lookalike for an extra $10
("Hey man, we don't care if you just pitch it in the dumpster on the way out the store, manager says we gotta move those off the shelves")

I've read horror stories about how remington management screwed over suppliers and associated companies, enough that I'll not buy their product again.

Yes, the Marlin "rem-lins" seem to be coming up in quality control, but there are a lot of people that need to be convinced they're up to standards now. I suspect it's too late.
(early quality control glitch I read about on another forum - guy ordered a .45-70, they built it with a .30-30 receiver. obviously, loading would be an issue)

So I've no sympathy, even for a grand old classic. Their soul is gone, snuffed out by a pack of non-gun business experts.

Maybe someone who cares will buy out the remains and try to turn them around. We'll see.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by 44shooter »

I imagine Remington will be sold and reorganized. I haven't bought a Remington in a long time and have been disappointed in guns I've examined lately. I also hate what they did to Marlin, H&R, Para etc.

I still would hate to see the brand fail. They have some very sound designs that have become modern classics: 870, 1100, 700, Seven, 7600, 7400 etc. And their CoreLokt ammo is usually fairly accurate and effective without costing a lot of money.

Hopefully the brand will fall into more capable hands. I would advise emphasis on centerfire rifles and repeating shotguns. Give up on their multiple failures at making a cheap 22 auto, an o/u shotgun, a premium 22 bolt. Stop pistol production. Ditch most the clothing and accessories. Sell H&R off to someone who will make single shots. Possibly sell Marlin and maybe Para too.
Last edited by 44shooter on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fordwannabe
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by fordwannabe »

Wonder what Ron Coburn is doing these days? Hey! its just a question.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
stretch
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by stretch »

It's a shame. The Remington brand name has terrific brand recognition.

But as other folks have noted, you've got to make a first-class product to go with the name.
Large, modern corporations exist to make wealthy shareholders wealthier. Labor is always
the highest cost, so you've got to reduce that outlay any way possible. Fire the long-term
workers, get rid of the pension plan, and replace the skilled workers with unskilled workers.
Move to cheaper digs, get taxes cut by promising jobs that never materialize in exchange for
a decade or two of no local or state taxes, and use cheaper raw materials. Job all of your promotional
materials, plastic parts, and garments out to the lowest offshore bidder. The only goal is more short-term
profit for the shareholder.

This is what we've come to in this country for a lot of manufacturing.

We as buyers are also to blame. We've been goaded into thinking about everything in terms of,
"what's the cheapest?", instead of buying something that's first-class. We don't want to pay the
freight. I like a deal as much as the next fella, but good stuff costs money. Keeping your American
neighbors employed costs more than exploiting little brown and yellow slaves halfway across the
globe. What are you REALLY buying, and how much did it cost, and not just in terms of dollars and
cents?

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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by AJMD429 »

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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by piller »

I wonder how much the CEO and other top execs make at the Parent company which owns Remington. Obviously a lot more than they should.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by JohndeFresno »

All of the above makes perfect sense to me.

But being a much simpler man than many here, no actual college degree and therefore certainly not a Fudd (PhD or whatever), I reacted from one recent abysmal failure at Remington.

Their much ballyhooed new handgun intended for life and death self defense turned out to be a lemon. Knowing that this manufacturer is no newcomer in the business, I warned several people that they can no longer trust current Remington firearm products because their QC is Gone With the Wind.

I believe that most gun buyers who were aware of that huge failure have reacted the same way, without having to drill down into the company's business practices.

And I was seriously eyeing that slick little sidekick.

My father spent most of his very successful career as the West Coast factory representative for Pontiac, then as a Pontiac dealer, starting in the late '30's. We were a GM family. Starting in the late 50's the quality control gradually diminished. Oh yeah, when the Union powered its way into ascendancy above Management.

For decades now, Consumer Reports has reported that cars from various Asian countries take QC more seriously and offer competitive prices. Generally US vehicles give up before they should, even though they may be "tricked out" or "pretty."

So we are a Toyota family, despite our love for our country.

No matter who or how many you want to blame, to thousand of gun owners like me:
That fine old, once highly respected gunmaker signed its own death warrant, same-o same-o Pontiac.

Once, Pontiac's mottos were "Dollar for Dollar, You Can't Beat a Pontiac," and "America's #1 Road Car." Very sad.

Like Pontiacs, I see the Remington firearms slowly and painfully fading away as beautiful relics; with Italians, Czechs and Brazilians (and some others) stepping up to the plate.
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marlinman93
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by marlinman93 »

I remember some previous post here concerning Remington's bankruptcy, but after looking through many pages back, I can't find it?
Anyway, here's my take on it, for what it's worth.
Remington is the oldest gun maker in America that has been continually in business since 1816 when Eliphalat Remington founded it. Yes, it isn't the same company he founded, and hasn't been for many years. But being the oldest gun maker in the USA, I'd hate to see the company name gone. I also hate to see it tarnished by the poor quality that some firearms from Remington have exhibited in recent years! It's sad to see such an old and honored name be drug through the dirt, and even sadder the present owners have caused this.
This isn't their first bankruptcy, as it happened way back in 1886 also, and was saved by Marcellus Hartley and the power of UMC Cartridge Co. But this latest is for poor quality, and the previous was simply because they built great guns, but didn't know how to market them well.
I'm sure the name will be purchased by another company. Or maybe someone will buy Remington out of bankruptcy and bring them back. Either way, I hope the name is once again associated with the quality they were once known for!
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by JerryB »

The only Remington I have ever owned is 550-1 .22 automatic that my dad bought for me in 1953. About ten years ago I had a new firing pin put in. That long barrel will still shoot very small groups.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by piller »

I gave my son my 870 Wingmaster 20 gauge purchased new back in the mid 80s, and had it fitted to him due to his right handed-left eye dominant situation. It still looks almost new and still cycles as slick as oiled glass. If Remington still had the same quality now, they would not be facing bankruptcy. A few years ago, I bought a Mossberg instead of a Remington shotgun because of the quality and fit & finish. Unless Remington gets their act together, I cannot foresee myself purchasing anything more from them. I refuse to purchase lesser quality items even for the name. For those who know what Synthroid is, I refuse the brand because the brand is made by a generic company for the brand manufacturer. The brand manufacturer has failed to get their own in-house made product approved due to poor quality each try since 1994. Having been prescribed Synthroid, I demand the generic made by Lannett for the quality of manufacture. As a Pharmacist, I know where to look up the information on quality control issues in medicines.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by piller »

Oh, yes I do purchase less expensive and less features sometimes. I have a Stevens model 200 rifle. The stock is cheap, but the metal parts are all Savage brand quality with outstanding accuracy. It does not have an accu-trigger. One of these days, it will get one and a better stock at the same time. Those two items will make it the equivalent of a Savage 110. Savage is known for having good value on most of their products.
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by AJMD429 »

I wonder what THIS ANNOUNCEMENT is about then... (new shotgun model hinted at)....
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Re: Remington Facing Possible Bancrupcy

Post by Ysabel Kid »

jeepnik wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:50 pm Berretta is doing well and has for hundreds of years. Why? Family owned and family operated. And here tell they treat their employees like family. You know the way Winchester, Remington, S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc. used to do.
BINGO!

It's even worse when the company is publicly-traded. Then the executive management now manages to today's stock price, and long-term anything - especially loyalty to employees - is thrown out the window.
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