Self Defense Shot Placement

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

With Kevlar available to everybody, where would you aim...especially in a crowded room like a school, church, or mall? I play this out when I go different places. In all cases, the Bad Guy (BG) is pretty close to me (everybody knows their own likely to miss range) and I'm crouching so if I do miss it should angle upwards away from others. Another possibility and I have no idea how effective it would be, would be put two or three quick ones into the heart area and even with a vest perhaps it would hurt him enough to rush in for a quick coup. The two or three in the upper crotch area would be effective as well. Naturally, if the BG is not wearing a vest, all this is still a good idea.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by piller »

Base of the throat is a good spot.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

piller wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:28 pm Base of the throat is a good spot.
The middle of the face is a larger target....YMMV??
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
gcs
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:42 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by gcs »

Bet the percentage of bad guys wearing vests is small, I'd do as you suggested, 2 in the chest, then go for the head, and... keep shooting till they stop wiggling.
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by jeepnik »

I'd still go with two to the chest, one to the head. I've trained that way for decades. I'd likely just do it without thinking. But, I do like the availability of a pelvic shot to put someone down on the ground (I tend to carry big slow rounds). Psychologically a person is often less able to overcome things when knocked down. Physiologically, besides the breaking of major bones and joints the pelvis if full of nerves and big blood vessels.

Really it all depends on what shots are presented. Then comes the question, do you take a shot with innocents behind the target if the target is doing more damage. I pray I never have to make that decision, as I'm sure we all do.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by JohndeFresno »

jeepnik wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 pm I'd still go with two to the chest, one to the head. I've trained that way for decades. I'd likely just do it without thinking. But, I do like the availability of a pelvic shot to put someone down on the ground (I tend to carry big slow rounds). Psychologically a person is often less able to overcome things when knocked down. Physiologically, besides the breaking of major bones and joints the pelvis if full of nerves and big blood vessels.

Really it all depends on what shots are presented. Then comes the question, do you take a shot with innocents behind the target if the target is doing more damage. I pray I never have to make that decision, as I'm sure we all do.
Yes.

And crouching as with OP, if at all possible in a crowded room for the reason noted if this is a one-story building.

As for my wife, I taught her to shoot towards the abdomen with the first two shots if this is a home invasion, then follow up if necessary with aimed shots to the head because:
1) She shoots a bit high in a pinch, if not dead on
2) Abdomen area may not be protected by a vest, which several home invaders have worn in the Central Valley
3) Trauma more likely in less protected abdomen area even with a vest, hurts more and should slow attacker for follow-up shots
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

I might add that I approach this from my point of view, ie, I carry an LCP 380...not the most accurate tool to shoot with from very far away.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Malamute »

I would suggest upper chest and eyes with the 380.

As to the pelvic shot, I wouldnt be in a hurry to promote it.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php ... the-Pelvis

This has come up in discussion with several long time LE people commenting they had seen many such shots and none had been particularly impressive.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

I can't remember which "Famous Gun Writer" wrote this, but it was in a Q&A column. The question was that you had enough time for one shot and the bad guy was holding a cocked gun at your wife's head. He answered Pelvis reasoning that by breaking the carriage of the skeleton would collapse the BG to the floor. Heck, I don't know, but having your junk shot certainly would give pause to someone. :shock:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by JohndeFresno »

Malamute wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:20 pm ...As to the pelvic shot, I wouldnt be in a hurry to promote it.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php ... the-Pelvis
Great research piece - Thank you!

I never quit learning things at this site. As matter of fact, I settled on the abdomen shots for my wife's home defense as noted some 37 to 40 years ago after a fellow deputy's wife was attacked and raped during a midday home invasion. She lived 5 doors down from us on my street.

At that time, I believed that a gut shot would be the most instantly painful and debilitating while it afforded more time for her to aim at the head if necessary.

Thankfully it has not as yet been necessary for anybody at home to test the effects.

On the other hand, I responded to an incident where a deputy shot a perpetrator in the stomach with a humble .38 Special snubby and the assailant was in no shape to do anything.

Having read the cited article, I will be rethinking the spouse's home defense tactics.

As for today's rabid batch of "holy warriors" and mass shooters - repeated news reports show them to be manic and unstoppable unless their advance is stopped with a well practiced shot to the Central nervous system. That is the answer, unfortunately.
Last edited by JohndeFresno on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
M. M. Wright
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Location: Vinita, I.T.

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by M. M. Wright »

Like Jeepnik said, I'll put two to the body and one to the head because we do what we've trained for and I've been doing that drill for a very long time. I'd like to think I'd be using a 1911 45 ACP but I don't carry it much any more. Like Blaine, I mostly carry a .380 except mine is a Remington 51 made in the twenties. The modern ammo I use is much better than what it originally was intended for but +P should be no problem for it since it is sorta almost a locked breach. I'm hoping Remington eventually gets some of the new R51s in 9mm parabellum on the market as I'm really wanting to try one.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
wecsoger
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:40 am

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by wecsoger »

We would all like to think we're capable of James Bond precision in the heat of battle, but sadly not so.

At best, go for initial shots center-of-mass. If the threat is wearing heavy armor you should already have seen it and re-evaluated your strategy.

If the threat is wearing a vest, any round is going to hurt, *a lot*. I've seen several pictures of after-action 'saved by the vest' and dinner plate sized bruises are the norm. Broken ribs also another possibility.

Who knows, you might get lucky and get a round through the seam between front and back plates. It's happened.

Get rounds safely downrange into the threat, avoid crossfire or any non-threats beyond and keep shooting till the threat isn't.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by piller »

The face will certainly cause anyone not on PCP to stop when impacted there by a bullet, but the throat gives easy access to the spinal cord. Cut the spinal cord and everything stops immediately. Anywhere else and the reflexes can still pull the trigger. Cut the cord in the neck and the arms and legs are incapable of movement immediately.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
shiloh505
Levergunner
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:30 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by shiloh505 »

After a career in law enforcement and personal involvement in five gunfights I can tell you that trying to shoot at a human neck will be an extremely difficult shot. Remember your target isn't static, humans move almost constantly and at varying speeds. The attacker will most likely be moving toward you or your loved one. The average neck is what, 6-8" wide and then consider how wide is the actual spinal cord? Best possible target is the upper torso where the heart and lungs are located. It's the largest target on a human body in a very stressful situation you want a large target to shoot at. Your intention is to create massive blood loss. You're not shooting to kill your attacker but to stop the threat and that's how should articulate yourself to the investigating agency. Shoot until the threat stops. Some suspects may wear body armor but the vast majority won't be.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18564
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Sixgun »

After reading this post I thought to myself, "Man, I can hit a beer can at 100 meters.....and regularly at 200 meters easily with any decent handgun, but in a firefight I'd be happy to hit that can at 2' "......unless I was unnoticed and behind cover but those things don't happen very often.

Shiloh505 echoed my thoughts with real experience.

I've been shooting since I was about 6 and constantly since I was 18....(45 years) and seldom do I go more than 3 days without pulling the trigger........and I carry a gun even when mowing the lawn and I sure hope that I don't have to use it in anger because from what I've heard, you lose your nerve and aiming and hitting for a small moving target would need divine help.-----6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Malamute »

piller wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:53 pm The face will certainly cause anyone not on PCP to stop when impacted there by a bullet, but the throat gives easy access to the spinal cord. Cut the spinal cord and everything stops immediately. Anywhere else and the reflexes can still pull the trigger. Cut the cord in the neck and the arms and legs are incapable of movement immediately.
I wouldnt assume it works every time. I know one guy that was shot through the head from the side, it was forward of the brain case. It entered high and went at a downward angle and exited his neck. He chased the guy two blocks. There have been several anecdotal incidents related elsewhere of people being shot in the face or forehead and not getting the desired reaction. Bullets sometimes do weird things, like skid around under the skin but not penetrating bone.

There was one instance related elsewhere of a guy getting shot through the heart with a 45 auto HP load, he turned, ran back up a set of stairs into a room and negotiated surrender. I dont think he ultimately survived, but the heart shot wasnt by any means a instant stopper. We of course have the incident where a female LE officer was shot through the heart with a 357 mag HP load at a couple feet distance, she returned fire, and survived. Just saying, the only certain thing we can say is its hard to be certain what will happen when people (or animals) are shot. Theres generalities, but dont let it rattle you if things dont go as planned.

Brain and spine shots usually work well. Most other stuff is variable. Still, we have Gabby Giffords who was shot through the brain and survived. Pistols are pretty sub-optimal for shooting people and getting consistently spectacular results. When looking critically at actual department results with 357 magnums, the legendary status starts slipping.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Chuck 100 yd
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: Ridgefield WA. USA

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Roy and Gene would just shoot the gun out of their hand. :D
User avatar
gamekeeper
Spambot Zapper
Posts: 17322
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Over the pond unfortunately.

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by gamekeeper »

Chuck 100 yd wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:54 pm Roy and Gene would just shoot the gun out of their hand. :D
I very nearly said that myself......... :D
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

I love thread drift. It opens up many possibilities. But: thugs with vests, small EDCs... 8) 8) Antifa, especially, seems to equip themselves with vests. Of course, earlier this month, we saw what their All Out War looked like. :lol: (They've sort of been missing of late :lol: )
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Malamute »

Well, you could step up a notch from the 380, which would probably be an improvement in overall effectiveness, regardless if someone had a vest on or not. The little 380s are very compact and easy to carry, but not noted for being very effective.

Ive considered a 380 now and then, but keep coming back to a J frame Smith as a low end gun. Theres various single stack 9s that arent too chunky to carry that are probably worth using (glock 42 or 43, whichever is the 9mm), though when making small steps up, it doesnt take many small steps until you are suddenly at glock 19 size, and realize they arent too hard to carry, and give much more shootability than tiny guns and carry a lot more BBs (or Europellets, whatever your terminology preference).
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18564
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Sixgun »

Copy that Malamute........a couple of years ago I lost a Ruger .380....somewhere on the property....I could care less....

My j frame 38 Spl. is stoked with 200 gr. dead soft swaged bullets at 625 fps..ala British 38-200.

Even a hit to a vest will push em back a foot or two :D ----6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31932
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by AJMD429 »

Malamute wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:31 pmStill, we have Gabby Giffords who was shot through the brain and survived.
Yeah, but she's a liberal, so that wasn't a vital organ.... :o
Malamute wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 pm I've considered a 380 now and then, but keep coming back to a J frame Smith as a low end gun. Theres various single stack 9s that arent too chunky to carry that are probably worth using (glock 42 or 43, whichever is the 9mm), though when making small steps up, it doesnt take many small steps until you are suddenly at glock 19 size, and realize they arent too hard to carry, and give much more shootability than tiny guns and carry a lot more BBs (or Europellets, whatever your terminology preference).
Yeah, I've been through that upwards-cascade a few times, and wind up with "...if it isn't gonna be my tiny little Sig-938 (9mm), then it may as well be my Para-12 (12-shot 'officer model' 45 ACP), in which case what the heck, I'll just carry the P-14 with a 20 round magazine..." :D
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

Ray wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:29 pm Gentlemen we appear to have some combat super gurus here amongst us !… Even with all of the scientific and dedicated "training" that I have done, slaying in-numerous chert rocks, tree stumps, pine cones and beer cans, all I can do is hope and pray that I can draw without fumbling, dropping gun, dumping magazine or swinging out cylinder by mistake….I am in awe of all of you experienced gunfighters !

" I'd still go with two to the chest, one to the head. I've trained that way for decades. I'd likely just do it without thinking."

"Like Jeepnik said, I'll put two to the body and one to the head because we do what we've trained for and I've been doing that drill for a very long time."
I'm in awe that you have finally recognized this body of august weapons experts for what we are. You may remain among us. :lol: :lol:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by JohndeFresno »

As a three time award winner of the JohndeFresno Association Shooter of the Year and Coolest Man Alive, I am glad to share notes with such a fine collections of Shootists.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

JohndeFresno wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:40 pm As a three time award winner of the JohndeFresno Association Shooter of the Year and Coolest Man Alive, I am glad to share notes with such a fine collections of Shootists.
:lol: Imma gonna win that next year.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by jeepnik »

So, John is 72, who won the other 69 times?
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18564
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Sixgun »

jeepnik wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:43 pm So, John is 72, who won the other 69 times?

Me...I NEVER lose.---6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by JohndeFresno »

Actually, the endowment and Award Ceremony was set up three years ago.

Any Leverguns Forum member is welcome to contribute to this worthy cause. Tax deductible, of course. No - wait - under the new tax plan, it ain't.
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Rusty »

Isn't 2 to the body and 1 to the head called THE MOZAMBIQUE DRILL ? If it has reached the status of a named drill I would think that would give it a certain amount of credibility.
I bought my first SECOND CHANCE vest in 1977. After that I watched incidents reports of officers shot while wearing vests. They termed the effect BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA and there were incidents of varying degrees of disability after being shot. At the time Safariland came out with a vest that had a more rigid backing to help cut down of the trauma.
I'm sure there are still videos out there by the Second Chance people Showing someone wearing one their vests and shooting themselves in the chest with a .357 Mag.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by piller »

The Mozambique drill is 2 to the heart and 1 to the base of the throat. First two to stop the pump, be it from penetration and subsequent leakage or compression damage when the bad guy is wearing a bullet resistant vest, and the third to cut off air supply and possibly mess up the wiring of the electrical system.

Train under whatever pressure you can have used to attempt to cause you to fail and learn to have the mindset that you are going to stop whoever did the thing which made you pull out your firearm. The old adage that you fight like you train has been proven true quite often. Sometimes that is a bad thing. Training in perfect scenarios is not very effective for those in the AO when the extravasation impacts on the spinning breeze maker.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Malamute »

2 to the chest 1 to the head is generally called a failure drill today I believe.

It hints at something thats generally lacking in such discussions (though not everywhere) in the assessment phase after the first 2. Being able to continually assess the situation as it develops in preferable to "mag dump" or other such ideas. Trying to shoot as fast as one can can bypass the assessment part. One needs to be able to put the brakes on if or as needed at any point if the threat situation changes. This has several ramifications. Its been noted many times that the assessment changed as the initial trigger pull had begun, then was stopped when subject of ones attention threw gun down. If you shot at that point you may likely be the one going to jail and having a lot of explaining to do. Same for if said subject dropped their gun after being shot, but shooter continued shooting. Its been described as similar to "dont outrun your headlights"
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Old Ironsights »

#1: Mozambique
#2: 2B&B (Belt Buckle & brain)

Outside of the above, know thyself.

If you tend to pull low under stress: Mozambique.
If you tend to shoot High: 2B&B

I tend to shoot high. dunno why. So I like the old C&B Pistol "Belt Buckle" POA.

People tend to do poorly when gut shot, and anything higher is gravy.

Better than a miss across the shoulder.

RE: BUG/Small EDC:

I was at a "tacticool" shoot everal years ago where everyone brought their best and most coolest toys (most had glocks).

We had a scenario where the Primary "ran dry" (glocks can never FTF/Jam, right?) and we had to BUG.

So, I dropped my 1911 in the mud (at least it wasn't scratchy gravel) and grabbed my wallet... err... NAA Guardian from its wallet holster.

4" pepper popper at 30 ft.

5 hits, 2 misses. DAO

Lots of mad Glock FanBois.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Old Ironsights »

Oh... Stressfire...

AJ will attest to how bad a practice this is, but... Cest la vie.

I have to keep EpiPens around for my food allergy. They "go bad" annually.

If you have the chance to commit a Federal Felony, the following is what I suggest,.

Go to a Combat Pistol Course.

Sprint around the block... twice... or... Run in place for 30sec then hit yourself with an EpiPen (standard NBC Autoinjector): Then shoot your run.

It... sucks. A lot. But it gives you the body-feel of the Fight or Flight adrenaline dump. Screw "aim small, miss small" It's "Can I Aim at all?". Torso, Torso, Torso (Wasn't there a WWII movie named that?? :wink: ) Guts are better than shoulders. Lungs are better than misses. Balls, Backs and Brains Win.

CNS is your worst enemy or best friend. That's how to go home at night.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

Old Ironsights wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:10 pm Oh... Stressfire...

AJ will attest to how bad a practice this is, but... Cest la vie.

I have to keep EpiPens around for my food allergy. They "go bad" annually.

If you have the chance to commit a Federal Felony, the following is what I suggest,.

Go to a Combat Pistol Course.

Sprint around the block... twice... or... Run in place for 30sec then hit yourself with an EpiPen (standard NBC Autoinjector): Then shoot your run.

It... sucks. A lot. But it gives you the body-feel of the Fight or Flight adrenaline dump. Screw "aim small, miss small" It's "Can I Aim at all?". Torso, Torso, Torso (Wasn't there a WWII movie named that?? :wink: ) Guts are better than shoulders. Lungs are better than misses. Balls, Backs and Brains Win.

CNS is your worst enemy or best friend. That's how to go home at night.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
MrMurphy
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1947
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:32 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by MrMurphy »

Mozambique, and don't expect a single headshot to work. Seen two that didn't in 4 years. Know of others.
EdinCT
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Southeast CT

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by EdinCT »

I read this and hope I never have to use my 642 Smith in anger. At 25 feet I do pretty good and at 25 yards I shoot min of torso.
I agree with two to the chest one to the head, but Bill Jordan once said after shooting a hole through a baddy's hat that all shooting goes to H*** when you are being shot at. Think about that, he cleaned tunnels with a pair of cut down 38's in WWII and could hit a pill at 15 ft from the hip and still missed under fire at times.
When I was young I fished with a Gunny Sargent who fought in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and I stupidly asked why he never had children with his wife or many years,. He told me of running across a opening while under machine gunfire. He said many didn't make it and when he got well into the tree line was when he felt the blood running down his legs and figured out the *** shot both of his balls off. :shock:
And another WWII vet told me with his Winchester 97 and OO he always aimed for the groin and the results were the Jap's died and he lived.
So I know its a stuff shoot but I will not fire unless real harm is going to happen to me or my loved ones and it's better to go down fighting.
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by jeepnik »

At longer ranges with shorter guns if torso shots fail to stop, I'll take the pelvic shot rather than a head shot. Bigger target, full of stuff that bleeds and you might even get the hip joint. But this is all quiet, peaceful supposition. bad times who knows what one will do. As I said, I suspect to fall back on the two torso one head training. Maybe I should add the pelvic shot at longer ranges to the drill.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
wvfarrier
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:27 am
Location: West (by GOD) Virginia

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by wvfarrier »

As a former LEO SRT member and former Army, who went to a couple specialized schools, I still practice the Mozambique but i teach my wife to shoot toward the solar plexus. The reason being if you shoot a little high or low.....you still end the fight.
A bondservant of our Lord, Christ Jesus
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Old Ironsights »

Modified Mozambique.

2 to the hips, 1 to the face.

In fact, Hip Shots are rarely lethal, only crippling.

No one walks right (or soon) after having their pelvis shattered.

Use enough gun...
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Old Ironsights »

EdinCT wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:55 am... .And another WWII vet told me with his Winchester 97 and OO he always aimed for the groin and the results were the Jap's died and he lived...
That's old school Civil War training. If you are using your pistol (C&B era) aim for the belt buckle. Gut shots are fight enders in most cases. Lethal away from modern medicine and generally bad mojo near a Trauma Center.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Malamute »

I question the assertion that a hip or pelvis hit will shatter the pelvis or even be disabling in most cases. The link I posted above is from actual evaluation of gunshots by someone in the business of doing so. As I also mentioned above, those in LE that have seen firsthand a number of them have been very underwhelmed by the results. It seems like a legend that has little basis in fact, but doesnt seem to want to die.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by JimT »

Malamute wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 pm It seems like a legend that has little basis in fact, but doesnt seem to want to die.
It sticks around because it has worked. Tom Furguson ... San Antonio PD and gunwriter in the '80's used it on more than several occasions .. I personally know of 2 others.
model55
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:23 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by model55 »

Was trained to shoot center mass to stop the threat,more than likely what I'd fall back on.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Blaine »

Malamute wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 pm I question the assertion that a hip or pelvis hit will shatter the pelvis or even be disabling in most cases. The link I posted above is from actual evaluation of gunshots by someone in the business of doing so. As I also mentioned above, those in LE that have seen firsthand a number of them have been very underwhelmed by the results. It seems like a legend that has little basis in fact, but doesnt seem to want to die.
The premise of the OP is that the BG has on a vest.
I cannot remember the author or the magazine but this pelvis shot was not my imagination. Break the pelvis and the center will not hold. Lot's of major arteries down there, too. Some vests might have a crotch protector, but it would still be like getting kicked in the balls...
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by Old Ironsights »

Malamute wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 pm I question the assertion that a hip or pelvis hit will shatter the pelvis or even be disabling in most cases. The link I posted above is from actual evaluation of gunshots by someone in the business of doing so. As I also mentioned above, those in LE that have seen firsthand a number of them have been very underwhelmed by the results. It seems like a legend that has little basis in fact, but doesnt seem to want to die.
"In most cases", i.e. not enough mass + velocity.

9mm? Probably not.
Hard ball? About the same.
.357/.44? A win for the Gipper.

Penetration +mass = broken bones.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by jeepnik »

Oh heck, kneecap. Then shoot the squirming, screaming pile of excrement in the head.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
gundownunder
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: Perth. Western Australia

Re: Self Defense Shot Placement

Post by gundownunder »

What can I say, We are all expert marksmen and can all put every shot into whichever eyeball we prefer.
OK, Now the BS is out of the way.
Shoot at what you can hit and use all the firepower you can handle. Then if he is still a threat, do the same again, and again, and again.
If you come to the conclusion that he is armored, then try for the head
I would think the biggest question would be," Are you capable of pointing a gun at another human being and deliberately pulling the trigger to take his life".
Bob
***********************************
You have got to love democracy-
It lets you choose who your dictator is going to be.
***********************************
Post Reply