.44 Mag Rifle Load

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Scrumbag
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.44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Hello folks,

Last week picked up my first lever action, a .44 Mag Chiappa Alaskan with a 20" barrel.

To hunt with it for all deer species in England, I need a loading that will do 1700 ft lbs.

So, any kind soul got any load data that will do that?

Best wishes,

Scrummy
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by JFE »

Congrats on your new rifle. Those Chiappas are based on a 92 and are quite a strong action.

The 44 mag is perfectly adequate for the UK deer species but you will need to handload to ensure the 1700 ft lbs requirement. To reach that with a traditional weight of 240 gr you'll need a velocity over 1786 fps. This can be achieved using slow powders like H110 or its twin W296 or H4227. Top loads with these powders will get you there. Fortunately these powders are also very accurate with top end loads.

One word of caution though in the case of H110 and W296 - don't use charges below listed minimum. Also in case you are not aware large pistol primers are slightly shorter than large rifle primers. I know a lot of people crush rifle primers in 44 cases and get away with it, but it's best practice to use the right primer for the case.

Below is a link to Hodgdon's Reloading Centre which is a good resource for load data using Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester powders.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Blaine »

I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I don't think you can get there and stay safe in that rifle.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Sixgun »

1700 ft. Pounds? What kind of deer are there in England? In Colorado you need a cartridge that has to have 1000 ft. Pounds for ELK.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by jnyork »

I'm wondering if the OP meant to say "1700 FPS" ?
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by piller »

I would like to know from Nath or Gamekeeper about what the requirements are in England. Before weighing in on the rest, it seems to me that a little information from those who would know about the requirements is in order.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by JerryB »

You will get plenty of good and accurate info here. And WELCOME TO A GREAT FORUM.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

England and Wales minimum calibre.240, bullet weight 100 grains minimum, soft lead expanding, 1700 ft lbs minimum. Roe, Fallow, Sika and Red deer.
Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer minimum calibre .220, bullet weight 50 grains soft lead expanding, 1000 ft lbs.
Scotland the minimum muzzle energy is 1750 ft lbs.
I was a member of the British Deer Society for years, I gave up eventually, too much ignorance.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by GunnyMack »

Is that 1700 FPE at the muzzle?
Like Sixgun said, 1000 is enough for elk, 1700 seems excessive for smaller animals in my mind.
Or is that a metric conversion... FKE? :lol:
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

GunnyMack wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:49 am Is that 1700 FPE at the muzzle?
Like Sixgun said, 1000 is enough for elk, 1700 seems excessive for smaller animals in my mind.
Or is that a metric conversion... FKE? :lol:
No, the British Deer Society think deer are armour plated..... :lol:
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by GunnyMack »

If memory serves, your deer are about the size of our whitetails, 100-150 lbs ? I know that a lot of deer here have died just fine from 22 lr! Let alone 25-20 and other 'weak' cartridges!
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

I once worked with an old retired gamekeeper who used a 22 lr Mossberg on Fallow deer quite successfully. I think it's got something to do with putting the bullet in the right place. :wink:
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Hi folks, thanks for the welcome.

Yes, the minimum requirement is 1700 foot lbs of muzzle energy. A lot I know

(As a contradiction, in Scotland you legally require much less ME to kill roe deer)

Thanks for the info folks, I've also been looking at: https://www.realguns.com/loads/44remmagrifle.htm/

Was wondering about 180gr to get the speed?
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Carlsen Highway »

With 180 grain bullet at 2114fps, your energy will be 1786 ft pounds. (This is a max load with H4227.) So yep, you can do it.

If you can get the .240 grain bullet to 1800 fps that will give you 17000 ft pounds of energy too. (That would be doable in a modern '92 action would it not? Doesn't Paco have loads over this?)

Such an energy requirement will be because of the bigger red stags I can only suppose. UK red deer are about like mule deer size, while in Hungary and New Zealand they grow a lot larger, here a good stag will go 500 pounds.
(I totally disagree that energy figures have anything at all to do with killing power anyway - you might as well measure how much smoke comes out of the muzzle. But this is an old internet argument.)
I have read that the modern energy requirements even make traditional cartridges like the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher illegal for hunting - this was the Scottish mainstay for red deer stalking for decades.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by GunnyMack »

I worked up some 41 mag loads for deer, 210 Sierra/Nosler/Hornady hp at about 1800,with Lilgun, very accurate load. I contacted
Hornady- bullet moving too fast for its design specs but the Sierra and Nosler Tech support guys said no problems with my velocities. The guy at Nosler was excited to know Henry was making a 41 rifle!
Just something to consider...
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by AJMD429 »

You probably will get the "ft-lb" requirement met with less pressure (i.e. a more realistic and safe load in that firearm) using the 180 grain bullet, and that is plenty of weight to kill a deer - the thing it lacks is cross-sectional density, but a well-placed shot (don't hit bone) should do fine. My kids used the factory loads in 180 grain when they were petite enough to prefer the lesser recoil vs the 240 grain loads. The factory loads were JHP's; if you hit shoulder they still kill your deer but destroy more meat I think than a hard-cast would.

They should use the Taylor Knock-Out formula; the ft-lb works but 'favors' smaller rounds (which is why they had to add the minimum-caliber criteria).

Graphing the velocity required to attain 1,700 ft-lb, vs grain-of-bullet you get a negative slope to the right. Graphing the pressure needed for that velocity would be interesting - I don't know if you would get a similar curve, or if you get low-enough bullet weights the pressure needed might be high again, but the realistic bullet weights in the 44 Mag are 160 grain through 320 grain, so that's why the 180's would be my choice of I had to maximize ft-lb (and I've only seen 160's once - brass solids maybe?).

I'm using Prvi Partizan 300 gr SJFP factory loads this year and they feed through my Marlin 1894 and Ruger 96/44 well, with great accuracy. No idea what the velocity (and thus the ft-lb) is, but I'd guess 1500 fps or so. I think I was getting chronograph readings of 1620 fps or so with 21 grains of 2400 powder and 240 grain JSP bullets, which is maximum, or near that if I recall.

Hodgdon' Basic Reloader's Manual 2002 lists a 24 grain load of H-110 giving 1817 fps from a 20" barrel, with a Nosler 240 gr JHP for 1760 ft-lb and 36,200 cup. Beware not all 240 grain bullets 'glide and slide' the same, so pressures could vary ALOT. Probably a hard-cast would give more velocity at less pressure, vs most jacketed ones.....probably.

I'd be really tempted to have a box in my pocket of the load the rules mandate, but actually use the loads I felt were going to yield the likeliest, cleanest kill. But that's why I'm on this side of the pond.... :D :twisted:
Last edited by AJMD429 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by mikld »

Not familiar with English hunting regulations, so just a question for my information; will you have to submit your handloads for inspection prior to a hunt (perhaps disassembly and chrony testing?)? Or perhaps post hunt ammo testing? Or are the specs based on factory ammo?
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

mikld wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:16 am Not familiar with English hunting regulations, so just a question for my information; will you have to submit your handloads for inspection prior to a hunt (perhaps disassembly and chrony testing?)? Or perhaps post hunt ammo testing? Or are the specs based on factory ammo?
The specs are based on factory ammo, I have no idea who would effectively enforce these regulations unless a specific case of cruelty or poaching was investigated.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:46 am With 180 grain bullet at 2114fps, your energy will be 1786 ft pounds. (This is a max load with H4227.) So yep, you can do it.

If you can get the .240 grain bullet to 1800 fps that will give you 17000 ft pounds of energy too. (That would be doable in a modern '92 action would it not? Doesn't Paco have loads over this?)

Such an energy requirement will be because of the bigger red stags I can only suppose. UK red deer are about like mule deer size, while in Hungary and New Zealand they grow a lot larger, here a good stag will go 500 pounds.
(I totally disagree that energy figures have anything at all to do with killing power anyway - you might as well measure how much smoke comes out of the muzzle. But this is an old internet argument.)
I have read that the modern energy requirements even make traditional cartridges like the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher illegal for hunting - this was the Scottish mainstay for red deer stalking for decades.
Hi there, yes I think H110 or H4227 with 180grs might be the way to go.

You are right on the 6.4x54 Mann no longer making the energy requirements, also the Scottish laws require a 2450 fps MV for larger deer so with the heavier loadings the venerable 303 Brit won't make the velocity requirements (though that has no issues on deer at all...) The law is an butt sometimes...
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by crshelton »

mmm, I will hazard a guess that hunting deer with a pistol is not legal.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by AJMD429 »

crshelton wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:46 pm mmm, I will hazard a guess that hunting deer with a pistol is not legal.
Here in Indiana they decided 444 Marlin would 'carry too far' as it was a 'rifle' round vs allowing the 44 Mag........but they allow a 14" Encore 'pistol' in 7mm Rem Mag, since it is a 'handgun'..... :roll:

I'd be a lot more nervous a couple miles from the Encore guy than the Marlin guy, in case they miss and didn't have good backstop (....and I think I know which one is more likely to be the take-a-risky-shot dude, too.... :| ).
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

crshelton wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:46 pm mmm, I will hazard a guess that hunting deer with a pistol is not legal.
You guess right, no handguns, no bows, no muzzle loading rifles but muzzle loading shotguns are okay. :roll:
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Leverluver »

Wow, not even muzzle loader rifles? I didn't know the guy on the grassy knoll was using a flintlock :roll:

I was working in Stoke on Trent I believe in 96, right after England's Sandy Hook. A friend that was a local had a real nice collection of handguns. This was just before the big "roundup". I guess that beautiful collection was melted down into door stops.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

gamekeeper wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:22 am
crshelton wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:46 pm mmm, I will hazard a guess that hunting deer with a pistol is not legal.
You guess right, no handguns, no bows, no muzzle loading rifles but muzzle loading shotguns are okay. :roll:
Really? I've never tried but if it makes ME requirements why not?
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Leverluver wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 pm Wow, not even muzzle loader rifles? I didn't know the guy on the grassy knoll was using a flintlock :roll:

I was working in Stoke on Trent I believe in 96, right after England's Sandy Hook. A friend that was a local had a real nice collection of handguns. This was just before the big "roundup". I guess that beautiful collection was melted down into door stops.
Not necessarily, quite a lot are still being sold off. Look at http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/as ... index=view

A lot of these are hand-ins from the 1997 ban
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gamekeeper »

Scrumbag wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:28 am
gamekeeper wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:22 am
crshelton wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:46 pm mmm, I will hazard a guess that hunting deer with a pistol is not legal.
You guess right, no handguns, no bows, no muzzle loading rifles but muzzle loading shotguns are okay. :roll:
Really? I've never tried but if it makes ME requirements why not?
I'm guessing that it would be legal, it's just a matter of convincing the local firearms officer to okay it, I tried but didn't get anywhere.. :(
The FAOs have differing views on what you are allowed, it's often down to which police authority you are living in.
Greater Manchester police will not allow my local dealer ( Hampshire) to sell Bond Derringer pistols in .410 because they have .45 Colt stamped on the barrel, he is selling them elsewhere in.410 smooth bore or in rifled .45 Colt for vermin control or humane despatch.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Hello folks,

Bit of an update:

1) Skinner Peep sight / scout scope rail has arrived (No screws though so need to find some 6-48 screws)
2) Leupold VXR 1.5-5x33 scout scope has arrived - Need some rings. Thinking mid height Leupold QWRs
3) Had some 200 gr Hornady XTPs loaded over some H110 for hunting ammo

Question, for the next batch, do we reckon Sierra 210gr JHCs would be better?

Scrummy
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by buckeyeshooter »

Call me traditional but I still use Elmer Keiths load of 22 grains of 2400 and a 240 grain bullet.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by OldWin »

I use 22gr. IMR4227 under a 240gr. XTP in a 16" 94 and a 20" Browning 92.
Excellent accuracy.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gundownunder »

I wonder if this has as much to do with the ethical hunting of deer, as it does the removal of the common peoples ability to hunt deer.
In days of old it was a hanging offense to slay the kings deer. Today such draconian measures are frowned upon.
The next simple solution is to make it almost impossible for the common man to buy a high powered rifle and then make a high powered rifle mandatory for deer. Thus making deer hunting a privilege of only the rich and landed gentry.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by JohndeFresno »

Scrumbag,

After you determine exactly what the safe maximum pressure level is for that Chiappa levergun(!), how about checking out the
handload data in the "Rifle / 44 Remington Magnum" section of a leading Australian powder manual?
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... on_WEB.pdf
Look at Page 185 for the Rifle data.

Those loads run up to 38,600 CUP, which is approximately 40,616 psi per a common American calculation formula, but the others are considerably lower and hopefully can solve your dilemma.

For reminders, Muzzle energy equation is:
Muzzle Energy = [Bullet Wt] X [Velocity] X [Velocity] / 450240
(Bullet Weight X Velocity squared / 450240)

A commonly used approximate CUP to PSI (American) conversion equation is:
PSI = CUP-17902 + (1.516 X CUP)

Prudence dictates that I include the statement that, since there is reportedly no ironclad CUP to PSI formula, you would want to use a load that is a safe margin below the known maximum pressure threshhold of your levergun.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by gundownunder »

Looking at numbers from ADI, and Hornady, and running them through the Federal ballistics calculator you could use Hornady's 225 FTX driven at 1845fps with just under a max load of AR2205 (IMR 4227). The 225 gr will give you better sectional density than the 180 gr for better penetration.
I don't know how pedantic your game wardens are over there, but you may need to crony your loads to make sure that the velocity from your barrel is equal to the velocity from the book. Looking at the data, most loads with the heavier, and better penetrating bullets, which you should be using, will struggle to get up to the velocities needed to get 1700 ft-lb at the muzzle.
A look at the Winchester reloading data shows that both WW296 and Hogdons Lil'gun will better ADI 2205, and may allow you to move up to a 240 gr bullet.
If you work on the theory that you need 1000 ft-lb on the deer, your 225 gr load with a BC of .150 at 1700 ft-lb muzzle energy is good for 90 yds, and your 240 gr load with a BC of .205 would be good for 130 yds.
As John said, work out what YOUR Chiappa can handle. It's a 92 action, which is renowned for its strength, but you still need to work up loads for your individual rifle.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by rogn »

My Rossi 20" 45Colt carbine will drive a 300gr XTP using a heavy but not maximum load of Hodgdon H110 at 1700 feet/second. Thats the equivalent of 1935 foot-pounds. To me that says that a heavy load of H110 and a 240gr bullet in the 44magnum should come close to equaling that energy level when fired out of a carbine. The published load for a 240 JHP in the 2017 Hodgdon loading manual is 24.0 gr of H110, that yields 1522FPS at 36,200PSI. 296 gives the same result as it is the same powder. Barrel is listed as a bit over 8 1/4". Fired out of a carbine that load will probably gain 250 to 400 FPS. That should put you nicely in the >1750FP-KE zone. You need a friend with a chronograph. Incidently VV N110 should be able to get close to the same result. Good luck , enjoy that rifle.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

Thanks for all the help folks. I should get to the range at the end of the month and with a bit of luck try on a fallow deer or a roe. Or maybe even a muntjac...
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by JohndeFresno »

Scrumbag,
GunnyMack turned us on to the "Reloading Assistant" app for Android cellphones that instantly shows several .44 Mag rifle loads with 1700ft lb ME ratings!

Check it out if you are using a cellphone or other platform that can use it.
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Re: .44 Mag Rifle Load

Post by Scrumbag »

JohndeFresno wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:52 pm Scrumbag,
GunnyMack turned us on to the "Reloading Assistant" app for Android cellphones that instantly shows several .44 Mag rifle loads with 1700ft lb ME ratings!

Check it out if you are using a cellphone or other platform that can use it.

Many thanks!
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