Where do you sit

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jeepnik
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Where do you sit

Post by jeepnik »

In church?

The church I attend is set up like many others. A door at the rear of the sanctuary and one on either side, roughly in the middle. And of course entrances on either side of the altar.

For decades now I have sat on the right (facing the altar) rear corner. I don't know exactly when I started doing it, but at this church it was when I returned after leaving the service. Sometime after that I obtained a CCW and started to carry to church. No specific reason back then, it just felt right.

I usually attend the same service every week, but sometimes things get in the way and I'll attend another. There is an older fellow who, near as I can tell attends everyone. He sits in the left rear corner. I don't remember when I first noticed that Jas always seemed to be there. At 70+ years old, he is still physically impressive and honestly most folks think he's in his 50's.

Jas hasn't seemed to have lost any of the muscle he developed horsing a big ole motorcycle around. He still carries the same 4" Colt Python he carried for the over two decades he rode those motorcycles.

There are a few others who seem to be sprinkled around, the number does seem to be increasing, and like most folks they have "their" pews.

A while ago we got a new, and seemly very young, Priest. He noticed Jas was always there, always in the same place. It took the young fellow a while to figure out that Jas had a the best "view" of the sanctuary from there.

So after rambling on the question remains. Where do you sit?
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by mikld »

I too, have found folks like to have "their" seat in Church. Most of the time, I believe, it's just being comfortable in their "spot". The Church I attend has mebbe 75-80 people on a Sunday morning and we seem to have our general area where we sit, and if I'm looking for someone in particular, I know where to look. Besides, I got to know those that chose to sit in the same area as we do better than those that sit on the other side of the sanctuary. Seems like the larger the congregation the more folks prefer a specific seat/area.

I attended a small Church in El Segundo, CA and at the back of the sanctuary there was one pew up against the wall. We called this the "Amen Pew". Mostly older fellers sat there (I was blessed enough to occasionally sit there with the Elders when my wife had nursury duty). These six or seven gentlemen were quick to come out with an "Amen!" during the sermon, and it added a bit of "life" to the service...
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Sixgun »

Where I find a seat.....usually the wealthy parishioners park their Cadillacs and BMW's as close to the door of St. Thomas as possible so everyone can see what they own and then rush in to get the best seats......hence, this furthers my belief that the Good Lord can be worshipped anywhere and that most people are hypocrites.

Where I really concern myself where I sit is in restaurants....since I retired we go out to eat almost daily and I make damm sure I ALWAYS sit Wild Bill Hickok style.....with my back to the wall facing the front door. I have been known....at the embarrassment of my wife, to leave if I can't get that kind of a seat.

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Re: Where do you sit

Post by fordwannabe »

As I have said before Mrs. fordwannabe was a cop for 18 years and I have a heighten situational awareness after, being a nurse in both a prison and two psychiatric facilities. We sit at the top of the church second level as close to the back as they will let us. Our church has 8-10,000 a weekend.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by AJMD429 »

I sit the same places Sixgun does, although if we were at the same place I'd probably sit behind him, facing the other way....so he could get 'the guy on the right' 8)

I've even moved around tables a bit to be in the right place... :D

I took an oath to protect life, and docs who don't understand why that means they should CCW evidently didn't get the memo that 'protecting life' includes exercising ones basic duties as citizen and/or parent.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by marlinman93 »

Right side, end of the pew, and always about halfway front to rear. I wont sit in the middle of the pews, as I don't like feeling "stuck" if I need to get out, or climbing over people's feet. I'd rather be a bit away from the rear, as I feel it gives us more time to react if by chance the doors opened and it wasn't a church member coming in.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Old No7 »

I agree with all those who like to have a good view, be on the end, and are always alert. Maybe those of us who concealed carry in church should start sitting one level up — in the balcony.

But it’s sadly ironic that we even need to have this discussion..........

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Re: Where do you sit

Post by jeepnik »

Several have mentioned he balcony. My church has no "balcony". It does have a choir loft at the rear of the sanctuary. The way it is situated it is above an entry vestibule. So if you look over the front of it you are looking down onto the rear of the sanctuary.

It has been suggested this week in a conversation with a couple of others that typically go armed that perhaps a person with a long gun could sit there. Problem is the church doesn't allow firearms, on the surface. But in that position the entire sanctuary could be covered for an elevated position. We have one member who volunteered to sit there.

I'm good for minute of deer anymore. He's good for minute of eyeball.

The thing is we don't want to seem to be over reacting. We don't want to alarm or irritate others. I guess we'll just stick with what we have and pray it's never needed.
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Re: Where do you sit

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Sixgun wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:39 pm Where I really concern myself where I sit is in restaurants....since I retired we go out to eat almost daily and I make damm sure I ALWAYS sit Wild Bill Hickok style.....with my back to the wall facing the front door. I have been known....at the embarrassment of my wife, to leave if I can't get that kind of a seat.

I'm not afraid of dying, I just won't die "stupid" at the hands of a nutcase.----6
Me too Six! Now I can tell my wife I'm not the only one (and she's not the only one putting up with it)!

Where do I sit in church? Nowhere. I stand - on duty helping to protect the flock.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by marlinman93 »

Actually if it's part of the plan to make your church secure, the balcony (if it has one) or the back corners are probably not good. I could easily see a bad guy standing under the balcony while you helplessly wait for him to show himself! Could be very bad to be up there armed and not able to get a clear view of the intruder.
I think the best place is the entry area of the church. Most churches have speakers in the entry area so ushers and others can hear the sermon when they're not inside the sanctuary. If one is trying to make the members safe, it's best to not let the bad guy get to them, and stop him in the entry area.
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Re: Where do you sit

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marlinman93 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:02 am Actually if it's part of the plan to make your church secure, the balcony (if it has one) or the back corners are probably not good. I could easily see a bad guy standing under the balcony while you helplessly wait for him to show himself! Could be very bad to be up there armed and not able to get a clear view of the intruder.
I think the best place is the entry area of the church. Most churches have speakers in the entry area so ushers and others can hear the sermon when they're not inside the sanctuary. If one is trying to make the members safe, it's best to not let the bad guy get to them, and stop him in the entry area.
I would agree. That's where I'd tend to hang out, or off to the side 'in the shadows'.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by JohndeFresno »

Sixgun wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:39 pm ...wealthy parishioners park their Cadillacs and BMW's as close to the door... so everyone can see what they own...this furthers my belief that...most people are hypocrites.
Of course they are, including me at times. I have never met anybody inside or outside the church who isn't one, to some degree. "Keep your best side showing." The Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby" song mourns - "Eleanor Rigby...Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door; who is it for? All the lonely people..."

That's one of the great things I get out of church - the sermons and worship remind me how unimportant I am, and how I am happier and more successful when I strive to follow the scriptures. There is a story of a "holy man" who bragged in church - "The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector..." Perhaps a word could be dropped to your priest that it's time to give a little talk using Luke 18:11-14.

Two wealthy people in our church - one who drives a Caddy, one who has a Continental - give much more of themselves (their time and talents, and apparently their funds, judging by gifts to the church that they try to keep anonymous) than the great majority of our congregation. And they don't park their cars next to the door. But pipples is pipples wherever y'are.

OK - so many attacks against the Christians these days, I get a bit defensive; although I know that the above post was not actually an attack; just a comment about the inevitable fallacy of man.

Now as for where one sits in church:
If this is about being armed for defense of the church, I know of several churches that have armed congregants, but wisely do not announce who they are, and discourage anybody in the know from discussing it. It is enough that the Pastor or Priest, and those who are carrying, should know who is armed.

Churches invite anybody to attend, including possible miscreants who are there for surveillance purposes. Loose lips still sink ships. For that reason, I won't discuss where folks might be sitting in our church.

As a matter of fact, two weeks ago when I was absent, I was told that a very suspicious looking couple visited our church; I am still getting the details. Their dress and demeanor bespoke a certain set of circumstances. Were they there to seek the truth, or were they there for something darker? The husband/wife team or man/woman team asked if the grape juice passed to the congregation was actually wine. And they left before church was over. But they were watched closely, and I suspect that they knew it.

Whoever they were, they would not have spotted those who are prepared to defend the flock. Here are some factors to consider, for those who intend and are prepared to protect your church:
1) Chemical Mace / OC - do you have it? An intermediate step between minimum force and deadly force if there is no weapon involved. Easier than finding out who is better at martial arts, the hard way.

2) Are you and other defenders close enough to the entrance(s) to intercept predators before they start slashing or shooting? Interception includes being close enough to place telling shots, if necessary, without taking out nearby and surrounding congregants!

3) Does your church have an evacuation plan? Even if all attendees don't know, a handful of regulars can guide them.

4) Do you and armed members practice regularly enough to hit a pie pan sized object at whatever distance intend to be from the perpetrator? Ballistic vests, you know, are popular. And a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit will actually stop a madman who is bent on bad stuff. That is not necessarily the same as a "center of mass shot" as taught to and demanded of our police protectors. A CNS shot demands much more accuracy.

5) If you are in a small church and/or one with mainly elderly members who don't have shooting skills, have you picked out the best compromise of where you can sit to reach a platform area for the most likely entrance? For instance - you want to be able to have a clear field of fire - say, a short jump to the outside aisle by a doorway so that your target has nothing but corridor behind him/her. And you need to react immediately as the predator comes into the sanctuary or assembly, armed and ready.

6) Have you quietly recruited and encouraged other capable members to get a CCW if your state requires it, and have you offered to take them to the range?

7) Have you installed locks for other rooms, e.g. Children's Church and Sunday School, to at least delay an attacker until help arrives - if there is a problem?

8) If you are fortunate enough to have swinging doors that open onto the foyer, and beyond that entrance to the parking lot, one person can monitor most people coming in before they do - baggy or unusual clothing? - Toting a bag or backpack?

9) Uniden sells a Guardian wireless surveillance setup, online through various vendors. One popular model has 2 cameras and a monitor for under $175. It is simple to install, since it is wireless. Power cords to the cameras and monitor and a quick setup per instructions. There are other models with more cameras for a bit more, and for that matter other brands. Your sound person (if you have one) or designee can glance occasionally at the monitor to see any unusual activity outside the church, like for instance somebody's arrival in the parking lot or area after church normally starts. We have a system like that.

10) You might consider getting volunteers to occasionally walk the perimeter of the premises. A visible presence might deter an attack. We have been doing that since a catalytic converter was sawed off and stolen from a member's car right in the middle of a church service! There had been a few other thefts and two or three cruisings of our parking lot, but that all stopped, along with the spotted cruisers - once we started a walking perimeter surveillance.

My biggest concern in this thread would be for persons with firearms to assume that, in an emergency, they can just take the attacker out - immediately - without hitting others from wherever they sit. Unlike in the movies, bad guys don't necessarily drop and cease to be a threat with a hit to the arm or even a hit to the torso. And folks don't just drop down right away upon an alarm. The news has shown repeatedly that many if not most will panic, perhaps stand and freeze, then run in several directions, and generally get in your way.

This all points to the conclusion that an armed defender needs to be unremarkable in appearance and located near where somebody might enter the sanctuary or other assembly.

If there is roving, uniformly identified security and they are always visible, guess who the attacker will take out first, and without warning?
Last edited by JohndeFresno on Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by jeepnik »

John, all good points.

Sadly my church frowns, officially, on armed congregants. Unofficially our priests know who the usually armed folks are. There are only two with CCW's the rest are either current or retired law enforcement. You'll note in the original post I made mention of the Swiss Guards. The head of the church has a small army at his disposal. But, the individual churches have very little to no protection beyond cameras and an alarm system (mostly for fire or break ins).

So, no official security team is possible. But a loose association of those who are capable exists. Each has chosen his or her (we have a couple of hers and they tend to go unnoticed in the group) desired location. That's something the churches with security teams should consider if they haven't, female members of the team.

We have a fair number of first responders at each service. Fire, police, military and such. I've never witnessed any incident where a violent person or even a questionable person had to be dealt with. But I've seen these folks swing into action during a medical emergency. No official team, or team training. Just well trained folks who, like all well trained folks, can interface with others they've never worked with before almost seamlessly.

One other thing I noticed. The rest of the congregants are wise enough to get the heck out of the way and let the trained folks work.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by JohndeFresno »

jeepnik wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:33 pm Sadly my church frowns, officially, on armed congregants. Unofficially our priests know who the usually armed folks are. There are only two with CCW's the rest are either current or retired law enforcement....
Same here. In fact, if you look at the videos of the Sutherland Springs, Texas church, ours looks almost exactly like it. A small church with a few folks who are willing and capable of stepping forward. Some members are dead set against guns - Liberals. Too bad. It is just not a topic of discussion. The camera met with resistance, so I talked to the Board and paid for it out of my pocket.

It doesn't take a formal crew to set things in motion.
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Re: Where do you sit

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If there are anti-gun members at your church, you have a problem. Being anti-gun goes against every Biblical principle I've ever known.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Rusty »

Luke 22:36 Jesus commanded his disciples, " he that hath no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one." I don't think there's any doubt that we are supposed to protect ourselves and our families.

There have been movements for some time setting up security teams in churches.

As for the first question, I sit on the right, on the isle, near the back.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by marlinman93 »

John, your post brings up some very good points! Many churches (mine included) have children's bible study in a separate room, or even separate floor! Simply sitting in the pews ready to defend the church leaves our innocent children undefended in another area! Just another reason those who take on the job of defending the church need to not only look at the entire church, but also have meetings so everyone is on the same page, and knows all are doing so the same way.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Ysabel Kid »

We have three buildings on our "campus" (a fourth if you include a storage shed). The church itself, the education/ministry/administrative building, and the old church which is now the fellowship hall. All are included in a thorough safety plan. Just last month we installed door barricade devices throughout the buildings. The thought is that in most active shooter situations, the shooter moves on if they cannot immediately gain entrance to a room. It is to buy time until the cavalry arrives.

Another critical aspect of any church safety team is to coordinate heavily with local law enforcement. We have a great relationship with ours, and they have had their lead guy on this out to meet with us and give presentations many times.
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Re: Where do you sit

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It would sure be nice if those with friends in the legislators could get the ridiculous 'school gun-free zone' laws repealed. Those essentially force children to be in places with no law-abiding gun owners to protect them. :evil:
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Nazgul »

Right side, rear of the church. Good view of the front entrance and about 6' from it.

Several years ago we a real threat from a local man. He threatened the church leadership physically, was drunk/high most of the time, and was arrested more than once.

I was a deacon at the time, we started carrying firearms discreetly and making sure someone was at each door. There is a front pocket on my bible case that holds a Walther PPK nicely!!

Still carry at times.

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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Sixgun »

It's a hell of a way to live ....taking all of these precautions "just in case", especially in a church. I never knew this way of life growing up.

In the old days I remember people "being taking away" when they exhibited strange behavior. Maybe some of these "people" need to be debrained with a fast moving piece of pb.

It's most likely why I have become a semi-recluse, avoiding large crowds of any kind....except gun auctions. :D ---6
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Re: Where do you sit

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Sixgun wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:19 pm It's a hell of a way to live ....taking all of these precautions "just in case", especially in a church. I never knew this way of life growing up.
It is indeed a terrible thing, and one more thing that makes most of us over 60 long for the "good old days"! But it is better to be prepared in bad times than to crawl in a hole and hope it wont affect us.
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Re: Where do you sit

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Well said, well said. I feel it's best to be prepared all the time.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by GunnyMack »

I saw on Fox this morning that a church in upstate NY has put on their sign " we are not a gun free zone" they even had an interview with the Pastor. He said this is the second time they have used this sign. Have even had local Sheriff give self defense lessons for the ladies!
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Re: Where do you sit

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The really sad thing is, my uncle and I were having a conversation about church security the other day. He talked quite a bit about the measures his church was taking and about certain incidents that had made him nervous. I thought to myself how terrible it was that he had become so paranoid and wondered if he really needed to be or not.

Then 3 days later....

Same state. Same denomination.

I was simply floored. I haven't graced the doors of a church in a few years. I have a strong impulse to go back, now. If for no other reason than to sit outside and watch their backs.

But....we talk about how bad things are now. We forget than in the late 60s there were bombings in the USA every day. Every day. And it didn't get their message across then, either.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by jeepnik »

vancelw wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:26 am
But....we talk about how bad things are now. We forget than in the late 60s there were bombings in the USA every day. Every day. And it didn't get their message across then, either.
Problem is, some of those who either did the bombings or strongly supported them are now in Washington D C.
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Re: Where do you sit

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jeepnik wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:32 am
vancelw wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:26 am
But....we talk about how bad things are now. We forget than in the late 60s there were bombings in the USA every day. Every day. And it didn't get their message across then, either.
Problem is, some of those who either did the bombings or strongly supported them are now in Washington D C.
Yeah. But the really sad thing is, so many of those involved are guilty of much, much worse. And still walk free.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by Griff »

In the parking lot. That way I can sing as loud as I like.
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Re: Where do you sit

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Griff wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:18 pm In the parking lot. That way I can sing as loud as I like.
We actually have a couple guys who make walks through our parking lot. It was initiated when a parishioner had their car broken into during church services. Now I suppose those persons outside could be the first line of defense, as they may be able to eliminate the threat before it ever enters the church. Problem is I don't think either is a gun guy, so may have to rethink who's outside.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by vancelw »

marlinman93 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 am
Griff wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:18 pm In the parking lot. That way I can sing as loud as I like.
We actually have a couple guys who make walks through our parking lot. . . . Problem is I don't think either is a gun guy, so may have to rethink who's outside.
To deter burglars and vandal you probably need visible guys. In my mind, to stop an attack you need armed guys who are discrete, if not invisible. Until the time comes to intervene. The known presence of armed security outside might make us feel safer. But if an actual event happens, they will simply be taken out 1st as part of the plan. The odds of something happening at your church or my church or his church a infinitesimal, so not being lulled into complacency will be a constant battle.
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JohndeFresno
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by JohndeFresno »

There are just a few of us in my small church. Irregularly scheduled exterior patrols may be armed or not. They have effectively discouraged auto burglary thieves since the same suspicious person was "politely" confronted in our lot twice within a two week period.

And parking lot patrolling perpetrators have also disappeared since they could see us noting descriptions and license plates which were logged and submitted to the police as suspicious vehicles. We also have kept a log in the past, but now our patrolling the grounds has eliminated the need to keep one.

Our second layer of security involves most church members not really knowing who is armed inside the church. You see, the only problem with churches is that they are full of people, some of whom are notorious gossips!

The third layer involves keeping entrances under surveillance during the service.

All of this may sound a lot more formalized and intricate than it really is - "Joe, can you watch this door today?". "Bill, how about a walk around at about xx:xx AM today?". After a while, when somebody is absent, others know the routine and fill in. That is the way it is working at my church.

Nobody plays the hard guy or hero, but instead has been instructed to be "harmless as a lamb but wise as a serpent" as per Matthew 10:16.

The guy we caught who we knew (but could not prove) that had stolen stuff before was invited into the church service (albeit with an invisibly armed escort). But of course he refused.

Since the confronting party was a retired peace officer, he had no legal authority to frisk the guy for ID or detain him, and the suspect left (naturally) before police could arrive with their higher priority calls. But the thefts stopped.

Lastly, and I don't mean to offend, but I believe that it is counterproductive to state here precisely where your armed protectors sit in church, other than sharing the idea that you are in a position to watch and respond if necessary.

This site is easily Googled by everyone, including those vicious nuts and airheads who have an agenda against churches and U S gatherings in general. If they find a pattern in the replies then that is what they will alert the other hyenas to look for and attack first, including spots where your security personnel sit.
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vancelw
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by vancelw »

+1 John

Also, Christ would have invited the fellow in to listen, too.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by marlinman93 »

I disagree that armed folks in the parking lot would somehow be "taken out first". If they were visibly armed they indeed would be a target, but if carrying concealed they shouldn't arouse the suspicion of an attacker. Of course anyone, anywhere who is first to confront an attacker has the chance of being "taken out", but I would hope those taking on such a task were not newbies handed a gun and told to go patrol the parking lot. If those taking on the task of protecting the church are armed, I think their chances of surviving (if trained) are no worse outside than inside. In fact the person outside will likely have more cover, and distance from an attacker than those sitting in the pews.
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vancelw
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by vancelw »

Visible and noticable security in the parking lot will be the primary targets of an armed attacker attempting to massacre the congregation. Whether they are armed or not.

To effectively stop such a cowardly attack, the element of surprise is an enhancement. A person hoping to alter the outcome of it will be more successful if they are discrete and their routine is not predictable.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by JohndeFresno »

vancelw wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:33 am Visible and noticable security in the parking lot will be the primary targets of an armed attacker attempting to massacre the congregation. Whether they are armed or not.

To effectively stop such a cowardly attack, the element of surprise is an enhancement. A person hoping to alter the outcome of it will be more successful if they are discrete and their routine is not predictable.
That is one school of thought, and indeed those who walk security need to know what they are doing, or at the very least be coached and informed on what to look for (e.g. a car full of unknown folks, hard eye contact, bulky clothing, fast entrance, etc.). We held a brief seminar for our ad hoc security in my church. The best candidates for premise patrol are those who have field experience and/or who have good common sense. Additionally, they must be fit enough to move, even if that is out of the way of danger, with some alacrity. That lets out many seasoned by weathered senior citizens, unfortunately.

Then, should suspicious circumstances occur, they should be thinking of ducking behind cover and hitting 911 on the cell phone or at least summoning those inside. I would agree that one doesn't just post folks to "walk their post in a military fashion" (Army Guard Duty Special Order #1) in a predictable and rigid fashion.

On the other hand, dropping the patrols and allowing individuals who are clearly suspicious and therefore potentially dangerous persons into the sanctuary puts many others at risk; and there is more than one reason for a roving patrol. Incident in point, as alluded to above:

After a catalytic converter theft occurring during our services, on the following Sunday (March 27th), a person of slight build wearing jeans and a gray hoodie pulled over his head (in hot weather) was seen prowling on our parking lot for no apparent reason, and immediately hurried off the lot and proceeded down the street out of sight when he spotted a walking patrol person wo made eye contact with him.

The word had apparently gotten out that we were a viable target; several Sundays after that there were a few different vehicles that either drove by slowly or in fact prowled through our lot, and then uniformly sped off when they spotted a person who had seen them from a vantage point in the church and walked out to the lot. All of the participants appeared to be young Hispanic males. One license plate revealed that the vehicle came from Modesto, a town not very close to my church. During this time the Central valley was being hit at businesses and even churches by Hispanic gangs, per various police reports and even an article in the Fresno Bee, with special emphasis on obtaining catalytic converters that were quickly sawed off during the song services and stripped of the cadmium content which was sold to scrap iron businesses. This happened the year before, as well.

Then on Sunday April 24th, a person with the same apparent height, weight, nationality and exact same clothing (jeans, gray hoodie pulled over his head in hot weather) prowled the lot on foot again, walking between the vehicles, and therefore very hard to spot via our camera (in fact was not seen). This time, however, he was being watched by a security team member who was seated in a parked vehicle in a shaded area. That person was a retired peace officer and was armed with both chemical OC in his pocket and a concealed firearm. The prowler was surprised and frightened (deer in the headlight look - wide eyes and raised eyebrows), and without being asked what he stated that he needed to go to the bathroom.

The security person accompanied him and listened to various conflicting statements, but still could not legally detain him or frisk for ID since he had not yet broken into any vehicles and the security person was no longer sworn. The prowler had Hispanic gang tattoos on the wrist neck, bad acne, pockmarks on his face and bad teeth (indicative of possible amphetamine addiction), and was covered with soot that is similar to what one gets on his person when working under a motor vehicle.

The youngster was indeed allowed to use the church bathroom, but did not stay long enough to allow for a police response. He was then invited to services in the sanctuary, and made several conflicting excuses why he could not stay, including the story that he was en route to see his sick grandmother - ???

The following Sunday, a white late model pickup pulled onto the lot and prowled slowly, but driver and/or passengers could not be identified before they sped off upon seeing a walking security person come from out of the shadows.

There have been no more suspicious prowlers since then, although the lot is patrolled every Sunday at different times.

So in a civilian situation, there are indeed risks involved and situational assessment is expected of those who are asked to walk security, but there is a provable reason for its need, at least at our church and several others in our area. We were hit a few times with auto burglaries (and as I said, even a catalytic converter sawed off from under a parked vehicle) during services that went unseen before we started walking the lot. Now, so far, that has stopped.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by vancelw »

JohndeFresno wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:14 pm
vancelw wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:33 am Visible and noticable security in the parking lot will be the primary targets of an armed attacker attempting to massacre the congregation. Whether they are armed or not.

To effectively stop such a cowardly attack, the element of surprise is an enhancement. A person hoping to alter the outcome of it will be more successful if they are discrete and their routine is not predictable.

On the other hand, dropping the patrols and allowing individuals who are clearly suspicious and therefore potentially dangerous persons into the sanctuary puts many others at risk; and there is more than one reason for a roving patrol. Incident in point, as alluded to above:

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested not using patrols.
Effectively ending a massacre, preventing a massacre, and stopping thieves/vandals are all different scenarios and goals.
I feel both roving patrols and not-so-obvious protectors are needed. But the person doing either needs to have the proper mind set and skill set.
Simply having armed patrols might make a coward move to a softer target. Most likely would. But I wouldn't bet my life on it. I'd want a backup plan.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by JohndeFresno »

vancelw wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:43 pm
JohndeFresno wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:14 pm
vancelw wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:33 am Visible and noticable security in the parking lot will be the primary targets of an armed attacker attempting to massacre the congregation. Whether they are armed or not.

To effectively stop such a cowardly attack, the element of surprise is an enhancement. A person hoping to alter the outcome of it will be more successful if they are discrete and their routine is not predictable.

On the other hand, dropping the patrols and allowing individuals who are clearly suspicious and therefore potentially dangerous persons into the sanctuary puts many others at risk; and there is more than one reason for a roving patrol. Incident in point, as alluded to above:

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested not using patrols.
Effectively ending a massacre, preventing a massacre, and stopping thieves/vandals are all different scenarios and goals.
I feel both roving patrols and not-so-obvious protectors are needed. But the person doing either needs to have the proper mind set and skill set.
Simply having armed patrols might make a coward move to a softer target. Most likely would. But I wouldn't bet my life on it. I'd want a backup plan.
Agreed. From what we have seen, most or all of the latest shooters were cowards. But they are still dangerous as long as they are armed.
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Re: Where do you sit

Post by marlinman93 »

We've had more than our share of "characters" come into our church, or hang out in our parking lot. Some of this is brought on by our program of gathering food from donations and handing it out to those in need. We schedule this on Mondays, but once the word spread many people came by on Sunday to try to pick up food. Naturally they assumed since members are there Sunday, then that's their best chance to obtain the food donations.
We aren't going to stop doing food donations, as it's what we do. But some of the people understand and return Monday; while others get belligerent when they aren't given food on Sunday. We have had to escort people out of the church, and on rare occasion call 911.
The few times we've had car break ins I believe were the done by the same people we've tried to help. They're crimes of opportunity where I believe someone stops to get food, and simply tries every door handle in the lot until they find one open. Never have had a case where a car had a window broken, or sign of forced entry. But when we started parking lot patrols all crime in the parking lot ended. It also avoided most confrontations too, as the people patrolling often interacted with those same people before they got inside.
I still believe that a well trained patrol outside is a great resource for all sorts of reasons. It is rare to have a shooting at a church, but times are changing. But a trained patrol will help avoid it, and many other possible problems.
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