Wood Splitter update....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:53 pm

Anybody know a practical way to figure out whether it is the hydraulic pump or hydraulic control lever or some other part causing a wood splitter to function but almost completely lose power...?

The. (gasoline) engine speed and power is good and there is plenty of hydraulic fluid and the ram speed seems to be reasonable until it hits would then it just basically stops. Engine speed reacts to the wedge contacting the wood but doesn't sound like it is getting much load or resistance the way it normally would if stalling against a really tough stump. Won't even split a 2x4" piece of pine now. No visible fluid leaks.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:12 pm

Do a pressure check

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:58 pm

jdad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:12 pm Do a pressure check

A pressure check is the best way to tell what is going on. It could have a bad packing on the piston , a bad pressure relief valve,
A bad pump. Good luck !

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:02 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:58 pm
jdad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:12 pm Do a pressure check
A pressure check is the best way to tell what is going on. It could have a bad packing on the piston , a bad pressure relief valve,
A bad pump. Good luck !

What ^^he^^ said. Piston is just pushing thru the fluid. (Probably)

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:26 pm

So.......I assume that translates to buying a fairly high PSI gauge, and section of hose to put the gauge in various places in-line....? What's a hydraulic usually run...? 2,000 psi, 10,000 psi...?

I am guessing three things are involved that might fail...

a) the big piston's seals
b) the pump's deals or internals
c) the control-valve's internals

Since the piston is bigger, and gets lateral stress, I'm guessing it is likeliest to fail...?

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:02 pm

Control valves rarely fail but the relief valve ,normally located in the control valve body, can. You can remove the relief valve and check it for debris or a blown 'o' ring ,broken spring ,etc.
When the piston normally reaches its end of stroke ( extended) and you don't release the handle,the relief valve will release the pressure to protect the system when it's working properly. Without the relief, when the cylinder reached the end of the stroke pressure buildup would kill the engine or blow a hose.
If the relief valve is OK , there either is an internal leak or the pump is bad. A pressure gauge placed in thecontrol valves output port will tell you if the control valve/relief valve and pump are putting out. By removing the hose from the non pressurized end of the cylinder and running the cylinder to the end of the stroke ,you should not get pressurized oil comming out of the cylinder. If you do ,the cylinder piston packing is blown. That test is the easiest to do and no gauge is needed.

Hairtrigger · Post by **Hairtrigger** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:06 pm

A properly functioning hydraulic pump provides both pressure and volume. If the walls of the pump are scored you will get volume but not the pressure. I have also seen a bad Cupler between the motor and pump behave like this

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:09 am

Here's a really crazy idea. Call the manufacturer. As long as I've been doing what I do, I still need to talk to the folks that built stuff from time to time. Almost without exception companies have a technical support system. It might be one old guy sitting by a phone or it could be a whole crew of bright eyed college grads sitting in front of computer.

Regardless, most companies know that if you keep the current users of their products happy, they will likely have future customers as a result.

And, if it turns out to be small parts, many will just ship them out free of charge.

Stevie · Post by **Stevie** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:22 am

Probably piston packing in the cylinder...but could be the relief valve or pump itself could be shot.

A weak pump will normally work better when the oil is cold and taper-off as the oil heats-up....

Most log splitters I've seen are closed center systems with gear pumps. The lever valve is a simple spool valve and likely has the relief valve in the valve...however there could be a relief valve in the pump or both pump and valve may have a relief valve if components have been replaced. Something as simple as a piece of rubber(from a rotten hose) or a wood chip in the oil can get in the relief valve and cause it to not work.

You can check the cylinder easily enough. Remove the cylinder and drain the oil out of it. Work the rod back and forth and plug the ports(one at a time) with a finger. Should have pretty good suck or build pressure and hold it depending on which port you put a finger over and which way you push/pull the rod. You can also check the cylinder with air pressure and a rubber tipped nozzle. Air should push the ram out easily and hold pressure at the end of stroke both directions. If air is leaking past piston out the opposite port cylinder needs kitted or replaced.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:25 am

There ya go , the above suggestions have all the likely bases covered. I tend to eliminate the simple things first.
Also , a bad pump will usually generate heat as the oil bypasses internally. Good luck !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:13 pm

jeepnik wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:09 amHere's a really crazy idea. Call the manufacturer.

What a crazy....but good....idea....!

Thanks for all the other suggestions; I will have plenty to do this weekend I guess....!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:59 pm

....BlaineG, your PM was funny.....

(You other guys will just have to wonder....

)

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Pressures should run around 2,000 to 3,000 PSIG. Cylinders and pumps usually wear out gradually while relief valves go instantly. I really like the "call the mfg". Duh! This last at me. You might also check the motor to pump connector too. Could be a sheared key.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:05 pm

Fired it up again after reading stuff and was prepared to do more diagnostics, when I heard a popping noise and for a shower of hydraulic fluid, watching the reservoir cap fly up in the air...

Then I noticed the suction hose.....

20171028_194219_HDR.jpg

Although the inside of the hose at that spot looks smooth and intact, I'm hoping it was allowing air in the system and probably therefore causing the fluid to be compressible, reducing power.

I'll replace it and see.....

The other causes of foaming sound much less fun (and much more expensive), so fingers crossed....

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:25 pm

At this point , my guess is that your pump is sucking air and airiating the oil. That could be due to excess wear in the pump,too thick oil,Clogged up filter,hole in the inlet hose ???

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:00 pm

And?

inquiring minds want to know...

Hairtrigger · Post by **Hairtrigger** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:45 pm

The problem with calling the MFG is most are made across seas...
I work for an equipment MFG as a Dealer Support rep. (Tech guy). It is very annoying to get a call from a technician headed to the job site who has not even look at the machine yet and has no electrical or hydraulic documentation with him
Calling the manufacturer after doing the basics is not a bad thing

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:58 pm

....been working 6 am to 10 pm all last week and the only day I got off 'early' was only 7 pm and that was the day 44MagHunter got the deer, so no time yet to experiment.

The replacement suction hose arrived and does fit though.

May have to purge the air from the system though, so want to do that in daytime when I can see. Supposed to be "off" Wednesday, so might make it home before dark...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:24 pm

Well.....good news and bad news.....

I think I got everything replaced that needed to be (and none of it was expensive), and there was some tightening that needed done here and there.

I wanted to dip out some of the hydraulic fluid to see the color and consistency, but the little plastic cup/dipper I so carefully fashioned and put down into the filling port . . . . fell off, and is now in the axle/reservoir . . .

So I guess I get to drain out the fluid next week.....

At least I'm learning stuff....

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:47 pm

The patient just needs some material cleaned out of his circulatory system. See, it is similar to medicine after all.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:49 am

Like basketing a kidney stone then.....!

Somewhere I've seen a little three-prong 'grabber' that sticks out of the end of what looks like a couple feet of choke-cable, but I don't recall if I saw it in MY tools/mess or somewhere else....

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:17 am

Wal Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's, any auto parts store, and several other places carry those pickup tools.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:41 pm

Replaced bad hose, filter, and got plastic cup I dropped in reservoir out...

Taking hose clamp off then pulling hose resulted in interesting phenomenon....

20171129_152651.jpg

This was at pump intake.....

I'm hoping it's either supposed to be a 'friction fit' thing, or something degreaser and J-B Weld will fix....?

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:13 pm

That is probably wher your air is coming from. That could be the entire problem.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:08 am

I once tried to use a quick connect on the suction side of the pump and guess what? Quick connects only work for pressure connections. When they come under suction, (less than atmospheric pressure), they leak. Air. Air is compressible so it just don't work.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:30 am

Not sure the metal-to-metal was leaking, because it was a pretty stiff fit, but the hose was so tight on the metal that even after the clamp was loose, pulling on the hose eventually pulled out the metal piece. No sign of any threaded part broken off or anything. I need to get a schematic of the pump to see, but I'm betting it is a 'friction fit'. Of course now that hydraulic fluid is all over everything, it slips right in and out.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:40 pm

.
Got hoses replaced, J-B-Welded the pump intake, got the plastic cup out of the reservoir, new filter, new fluid, and carb taken apart and cleaned.....running good...!

.....except it seems down a bit on power still. It may be just because I'm paying more attention, but I decided to get a hydraulic gauge and at least see what the pressure goes to with a stall to see if there is a bad seal someplace, or the pressure-relief valve is not right.

Screenshot_2017-12-14-23-37-14.png

So.....won't there be air in the line stub that goes to the gauge...? Is it ok since it would probably be just an ounce or less in volume...? I don't see a way to avoid it easily, although I guess I could mount the gauge pointing down instead of up.

Woodtroll · Post by **Woodtroll** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:57 am

Yes, there will be some small amount of air trapped in that line. Not desirable but almost impossible to avoid without bleeding under pressure. The good news is that air is compressible and will "equalize" to the pressure of the fluid, so the gauge will read accurately nevertheless.

Good luck!
Regan

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:36 pm

Well.....installed the gauge between pump and valve to see peak pressure, and......

Screenshot_2017-12-16-18-27-36-1.png

.....no matter how much I tightened the pressure relief valve, pressure peaked at 300-500 psi.

So.....I figured since the pumps were in-stock locally, I'd replace the pump.

No luck.....still peaks out the same.

So since the only two other significant parts are the control valve and the cylinder, I guess I'll be replacing them one at a time.

I was going to try getting the gauge in a position where I could test the valve without the cylinder in the system, but not sure that is all that doable without buying enough fittings I'd just as well spend the money on a replacement valve, plus I don't have all that much time to spend fiddling with it.

I guess if I wind up with extra parts I can repair the one that is defective, mate it up with the unneeded replacements, and build a second splitter....

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:50 pm

Find the hose that is pressurized when the cylinder is extended to full stroke. Loosen or remove the other hose from the cylinder.
Start the engine and move the lever to the extend position, oil should not gush out of the open port. If it does, your piston packing is bad. Control valves rarely fail but piston packing/seals do fairly often. Good luck !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:08 pm

That makes sense....and at least I wouldn't have to plumb-in the pressure gauge.

If I understand correctly, the test would have to be done with the piston already extended, since while it is extending I'd expect the oil in that section to come out....?

Unfortunately I'll have to take everything apart to do that test, since the valve is directly attached to that cylinder port, and everything has to come off to rotate the valve and get it un-screwed...

Screenshot_2017-12-16-19-03-33-1.png

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:45 pm

I see in your picture how the setup is done. The test can be done with the ram in the unextended position. Withdraw the piston all the way and undo that red fitting from the cylinder base end. No need to completely remove it to see if fluid is bypassing the pistonseals it will gush out at the loose fitting. In this case pressurizethe cylinder in the non extended side of theylinder. Move the lever to withdraw the piston back into the cylinder and see if oil gushes out of the loosefitting. Those cylinders can be repaired cheaper than replacing them.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:59 pm

Makes sense; if it leaks, it will leak both directions....

Thanks. Way easier than taking the whole thing apart.

Amazing how it actually split a fair amount of wood at only 3-400 PSI - that's only about 2 tons or so with a 4" piston; the 20-ton splitter guys have 26-ton envy, and the 26-ton guys lust for the 32-ton ones, but 2 tons splits all but the hard stuff.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:02 am

Doc,
I put a gauge an the one I built 40+ years ago and It seldom peaks above 500 psi. Of course piston force is dependent on piston diameter as well as pressure. My old splitter has a 5 inch diameter so only a little pressure gives me a bunch of splitting force. Looks to me like your cylinder is pretty large diameter as well. Really sounds to me like your chevron rings are shot. I'd probably pull the cylinder off and take it to a shop where they can re-build it.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:37 am

Yeah I'm betting that 25 years of wear and tear plus if the fluid had got air in it from the bad intake hose, then the upper side of the cylinder would have issues. We'll see.

It's getting down to the wire with heating season so I'm going to just replace the cylinder now if the 'fluid test' shows a bad seal, then rebuild the old one if I can later, and either sell it or use it for some other project.

Might get me a bunch of 50 BMG brass someday and want to neck 'em all down to 30 caliber, and I could use that piston to make that stubborn thick military brass size right down in one pass....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:47 pm

Yep it failed the cylinder-seal test....a pencil-sized stream of hydraulic comes out when attempting to retract the cylinder, even if fully retracted.

Next-stop.....cylinderville.....

Hairtrigger · Post by **Hairtrigger** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:09 am

If you rebuild it yourself it will be an easy and inexpensive repair
Unless the cylinder is junk

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:18 pm

New cylinder.....

Now it stalls at over 2,000 psi instead of 200; split knotty 20" ash forks like glass.

Screenshot_2017-12-31-18-19-04-1.png

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:44 pm

I suspected as much. Cylinders/packing do fail sometimes. Good for you !

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:30 am

Congratulations AJMD429,

We knew that you'd be a success and here you are, all wrapped up, working fine. Happy New Year!

Frank

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:25 pm

Well....when you slide sideways on ice, and the rear blade on a 3,300 pound tractor hits the carburetor on a wood splitter.......you get THIS.....

Screenshot_2018-01-24-20-15-39-1.png

The little brass nipple that sticks out of the carburetor was embedded into the 90 degree plastic cube that the gas line connects to. The plastic elbow shattered, and the muffler mount broke (but I can deal with that later)...

The brass part came out of the carburetor as a SLIP FIT but no threads, so I can't just get a generic fitting to thread into the carburetor, and the on the other end of the brass fitting, the stub that went into the plastic elbow is just ribs, not threads, although perhaps I could get a line to crimp onto that if I 'slip-fit' it back in to the carburetor.

Where would you suggest I look to find a replacement part....?

Should I just replace the whole carburetor (and if so, how in heck to find one that would fit a given engine)....?

At least I got a few truckloads split after replacing the hydraulics, so I've got plenty of wood for now....!

Any ideas...?

Hairtrigger · Post by **Hairtrigger** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:28 pm

Buy a new log splitter
Or this thread will go on forever

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:41 pm

....kind of like the axe with a busted handle, then after you replace the handle, the blade gets a huge chip out of it, so you replace the axe-head...?

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:27 am

AJMD429 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:41 pm ....kind of like the axe with a busted handle, then after you replace the handle, the blade gets a huge chip out of it, so you replace the axe-head...?

That analogy came up once when my dad was bragging to a friend what a good car his 1960 Ford Falcon Station wagon had been in the 20 years he owned it....