Browning .45-70 short throat...

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Stevie
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Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Stevie »

I've owned my Browning 1886 carbine since 2012 and really have not reloaded a lot of cartridges for it. Most of the ammo I've made has been 405gr hollow-base bullets from a LEE mold or purchased 350gr lead bullets I've bought. Those being 'trapdoor' level loads since I own and shoot a couple of those old relics. I have also loaded a few 300gr jacketed soft-points specifically for my Browning carbine...but also at a lower power level.

Not long back I bought a couple boxes of Speer 400gr .459" jacketed soft points thinking these would be close enough to replicate Winchester's and Remington's factory 405gr JSP ammunition. Uhh..no...Not in my Browning carbine! With the Speer bullet seated and crimped in the bullet's crimp groove..the bullet engages the carbine's rifling enough to make ejecting a loaded cartridge a bit sticky...although it doesn't chamber too bad. Definitely leaves rifling marks on the bullet.

This my first encounter with the Browning infamous 'short throat' issue. I've read about the abrupt start to the rifling in these..however it hasn't been an issue with any of the bullets I've chosen in the past.

My first question for those with older Browning 1886 rifle/carbine experience is will the Winchester/Remington factory 405gr JSP bullets function in a Browning 1886 without touching the rifling?

Any recommendations for a 400/405gr jacketed bullet with a short enough ogive/profile that will work in the Browning chamber?

I really don't want to have my carbine's chamber modified as it shoots fantastic.

Thanx for any info provided
remshooter
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by remshooter »

if you reload you could use Hornady leverrevolution brass or trimm your brass to that length ,then seat bullet to the crimp groove ,.if need to trimm shorter till it works ,,thats what i did with mine to get it to work
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Griff »

My 1985 produced Browning 1886 has never seen a round of factory ammo, in fact except for 20 rounds of 325 JSPs back when it was new, it's only been feed the 325 RCBS cast.
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Stevie
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Stevie »

remshooter wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:04 am if you reload you could use Hornady leverrevolution brass or trimm your brass to that length ,then seat bullet to the crimp groove ,.if need to trimm shorter till it works ,,thats what i did with mine to get it to work
I actually thought about the Hornady short brass as I have some of that(range salvage brass)...Would likely be short enough to allow me to use up my Speer bullets!

I also thought about just sticking with lead bullets that fit..and the 300gr jacketed...at least until I find a 400/405gr jacketed that works. I have no idea why I want to load that big a jacketed bullet for my Browning. I've searched for a distributer with either Winchester or Remington 405gr jsp in stock..however those seem to be pretty much replaced with 405gr cowboy ammo of various brands. Which really do shoot perfect from my Browning(or my trapdoors too). It ain't like I plan on hunting moose or grizzly bear or really anything beyond Oklahoma whitetail and plinking fun...
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Blaine »

I encountered that problem with a JapChester 1886....I had to NOT crimp a dummy and then chamber it to get the OAL + an RCH that would fix the problem. With a Lee factory crimp die, you don't need to use the cannelure.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by GunnyMack »

Since 45-70 headspaces on the rim easiest 'fix' is to trim brass so you can use those big mutha's.
Like Blaine said, you don't have to use the cannelure. Years ago some manufacturer made a tool to roll your own cannelure anywhere you wanted, if you can find a tool then you are set( if you wanted to)!
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Blaine »

GunnyMack wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:09 pm Since 45-70 headspaces on the rim easiest 'fix' is to trim brass so you can use those big mutha's.
Like Blaine said, you don't have to use the cannelure. Years ago some manufacturer made a tool to roll your own cannelure anywhere you wanted, if you can find a tool then you are set( if you wanted to)!
And, if you are at Max Load, remember decreasing the OAL will increase pressures....
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Tycer »

Kind regards,
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Stevie
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Stevie »

BlaineG wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:11 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:09 pm Since 45-70 headspaces on the rim easiest 'fix' is to trim brass so you can use those big mutha's.
Like Blaine said, you don't have to use the cannelure. Years ago some manufacturer made a tool to roll your own cannelure anywhere you wanted, if you can find a tool then you are set( if you wanted to)!
And, if you are at Max Load, remember decreasing the OAL will increase pressures....
I don't load anything to max...in fact I keep my .45-70 in the trapdoor range for the most part. I'm off to my man-cave where I hope the Hornady brass is stashed. I think I have a few regular length range brass too.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by flatnose »

here is what I put through an 1886 miroku-winchester rifle made in 2001. 300 grain jacket hornady and remington bullets. 300 grain gas check rcbs. 350 and 405 grain bear creek bullets plain based. remington 405 jacketed bullets. 500 grain western nevada bullets plain based cast. All chamber and extract easily. 500 grain does not stabilize well. The rem 405 have 2 grooves in them from memory. Use the upper crimp groove.
I can go to .459 diabullets, but .460 would be pushing it with regards to neck clearance.
I seem to remember that one of the cast bullet weights just engaged the rifling a little, but did not cause problems.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by flatnose »

Another point, maybe.
The twist, at least on the rifle, is 1 in 22''. I think this was considered express rifling for the lighter weight bullets of 300grn or so. The 405's seem to shoot equally as well. I have found best accuracy with either the lead or jacketed driven hard to around 2100 or more fps. Not quite sure of velocity as I dont have a chronograph. Full loads of AA2200 or Rel7 or similar powder. That load is a bit hard on the shoulder, and not really that enjoyable. The 405's, lead or jackated,driven at 1350 to 405, using imr 4198, are comfortable and accurate.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by flatnose »

Edit my last response. 2100fps is for the 300 grain bullets.
Stevie
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Stevie »

Hmmm..lots of excellent info for me!

Hornady range brass...found it no sweat..in a baggy all it's own as I had segregated it a couple years ago...two full length Federal cases and 14 Hornady bass in TWO different lengths!

Eleven of the Hornady .45-70 brass measure approx. 2.033"...but three are at 2.00"+/-....the two Federal brass match my Federal and Star-line brass at in excess of 2.09" +/- a thousandth or three/four.

I found it interesting that Hornady brass may have been/are made in at least two lengths...That's not saying these salvage brass have not been trimmed-off a bit as all but a few of the longer length Hornady range brass .45-70 are obviously reloads(silver primers).

For the time being..my easiest option to push 400gr Speer JSP bullets from my Browning carbine seems to be the short Hornady brass....I think the Hornady stuff being approx. .060" shorter than normal length may be just about right to load the Speer bullets and crimp in the bullet's crimp groove still.

My next option involves buying a Lee factory crimp die and using it to crimp the bullet above it's cannalure in normal length brass(looks doable..don't have a Lee crimp die)

Probably not going to modify my chamber at this point...I had thought a .45-90 might be cool...a lengthened lead would definitely be cool..but I am not modding the musket at this point.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by vancelw »

Stevie wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:31 pm
I found it interesting that Hornady brass may have been/are made in at least two lengths...That's not saying these salvage brass have not been trimmed-off a bit as all but a few of the longer length Hornady range brass .45-70 are obviously reloads(silver primers).
The only brass that Hornady makes short is the brass they load FTX bullets in. The Leverevolution ammo. Otherwise it would be normal length
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by jmiller »

I had the same problem and had the gun reamed. It didn't change the accuracy at all. I went from not being able to chamber the Rem 405 JSP to being able to chamber anything. My gun will shoot five shots into 1.5-1.7" at a measured 114 yards (my deck to my backstop). As mentioned though, you can simply shorten the brass and keep using the Trapdoor loads. I only ever shoot trapdoor loads anyway and they still pass through at any angle or distance.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by OD#3 »

RELOAD!

I considered reaming mine, but I never buy factory ammo anyway. So I ordered a Saeco #018 mold. This casts a 420 grain round-nosed flat point bullet with the entire nose section being land diameter, so the short throat is a non-issue. Only the driving bands are groove diameter. This bullet, when crimped in the crimp groove, has an OAL that feeds flawlessly through the Miroku/Browning '86 action. You will NOT encounter any feeding issues with this bullet. At 420 Grains, it is a good compromise between the 405 grain and the 500 grainers. My Miroku/Browning '86 SRC will safely launch these at about 1800 FPS over 50 Grains of IMR 3031, but I consider this a MAX load. Perhaps the rifle will handle more, but my shoulder won't. I've had good accuracy with this bullet at both that max load and more mild loads of around 1,200 FPS.

Seriously, the .45-70 isn't hard to reload, and I encourage you to do so. There are probably other suitable molds out there, but my experience with the Saeco #018 has been excellent. I can't recommend that bullet enough for these Miroku '86's.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by Grizz »

I have a miroku saddle ring, it chambers a truncated cone bullet. specifically the beartooth bullets at .460 I think. there are three piledriver weights that have identical crimp to nose shapes and they all feed better in marlins than the roundish ogive bullets I've tried. The miroku feeds anything near as I can tell, but the ogive is getting in the way I suspect.

I wouldn't describe the chamber as short throated, Short leade maybe, since there isn't one on the drawing IIRC. (which sometimes happens). I think it's the SAAMI spec chamber. Does an empty case trimmed to spec length chamber?

Anyway, give beartooth a call and see if they have some samples you can experiment with. It's all I load any more.
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Re: Browning .45-70 short throat...

Post by JFE »

As mentioned a Lee FCD will solve your problem.

You can load to a longer LOA in the 1886 but unless you alter throat you need to use two diameter or bore riding bullet designs. There are moulds that will work fine in unaltered Browning 1886 chambers. In the past Lyman made a mould designated 462560 which has a flat nose and casts around 540 gr. It was meant for 460 WBY and 458WM. The crimp groove location works perfectly in my unmodified Browning. The longer LOA also feeds and cycles flawlessly. There's no need to ream out to 45/90 when a 45/70 provides greater flexibility and with the right bullets you can load to 45/90 length.

Also, FWIW, I've measured a few Miroku 45/70 barrels and they are tighter than Marlin 45/70 barrels. The ones I measured were 450 bore and 457 groove diameter.
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