Cabelas

[marlinman93]

I've kept my Cabela's Visa. Superior customer service. ..

Oh. So YOU'RE the one that they treat well. I figured that there had to be someone.

Good one John!
I love Sportsman's Warehouse, and they got my business for all the AR15 accessories after I left Cabelas that day. I told the gal from Cabelas the same thing, and told her they lost that sale and any future gun sales from me. I will go to Sportsman's when I want to make a future new gun purchase, even if they wont be the same price as Cabelas.

[3leggedturtle]

I've kept my Cabela's Visa. Superior customer service. ..

Oh. So YOU'RE the one that they treat well. I figured that there had to be someone.

Pete don't you know, that Blaine is special!

[Thunder50]

I seldom go to SW anymore since they quit accepting checks. Just don't use my CC much with all the companies being hacked. If I have the cash, I will stop by for something on sale, like the Ruger stripped lowers they recently had on sale, but otherwise I just pass them by.

[Blaine]

I've kept my Cabela's Visa. Superior customer service. ..

Oh. So YOU'RE the one that they treat well. I figured that there had to be someone.

Pete don't you know, that Blaine is special!

They call me Special Ed....

[kkoi]

Many of you described negative experiences at various Cabela's stores. I don't doubt that your accounts are true and don't intend to argue with you. However, my experiences at our Cabela's store are always positive. A number of employees in several departments know me by name and know my preferences in equipment and guns. When they see me, they tell me if something that might interest me is on sale. All of them are very knowledgeable about the products they sell. Let me describe a few of my experiences.

A while back, I bought a new 17 HMR lever rifle that made light strikes on the cartridges, even after I cleaned the firing pin channel. When the gun department employee looked at the light strikes on the cartridge cases I brought in, he immediately offered to ship the rifle back to the manufacturer. A couple of weeks later, I had a new rifle at no charge.

More recently, in the Gun Library I spotted a like-new-in-box Uberti 1873 45 Colt with gorgeous case coloring. It had a creep-free trigger that released at 3.3 lb (measured with a trigger gauge). It was priced right ($380) so I decided to buy it on the spot. When I prepared to pay, the sales guy asked if I had the store's latest coupon. I said no, he said he had one for me that reduced the price by $20.

I bought fishing equipment recently. The item wasn't on sale. Before I went to the cash register, the sales guy logged on to the store's computer to make sure the item wasn't going to go on sale soon.

In summary, the service at our store is always excellent and the staff people are friendly and knowledgeable. When they aren't busy, I enjoy talking with them and know they will give me the straight scoop on any questions I have about hunting, fishing, and hiking.

[shiloh505]

Gentleman, I work for Cabela's at the gun counter. Each of you deserve a great customer experience and competitive pricing. However, let me give you a view of things from my side of the counter.

When you buy a gun both the customer and the gun counter employee have to input information into the 4473 form. Store policy requires all electronic or paper forms must be double checked multiple times in the process to insure it is correct. We cannot submit incorrect information to the FBI NICS system. The store's FFL license is at stake. Each Cabela's store is individually licensed. We don't have one corporate license to cover all stores. This can take some time and please remember that once we hit the send button it's completely up to the FBI how long your approval/denial takes to come back. I've had an answer from NICS in 30 seconds and as long as 45 minutes and everywhere in between. Cabela's can't control that time lag. I had a customer demand 20% off of a gun because he had to wait 20 minutes for NICS to answer. He stated "My time is money. Get a Manager over here! I want to be compensated". He didn't get it. He was a rude lower body orifice.

Some of you have commented about "getting something for your time" If your goal is to come into a store to get something discounted or free based on your perception that someone has wasted your time maybe you ought to rethink that.

If you don't like Cabela's prices there is a store policy of price matching other brick and mortar stores within 100 miles for the same in stock item. Take advantage of that. We match prices all the time but please don't bring up an internet advertisement on your phone for a web site 3 states away that drop ships guns and don't carry any inventory and you're going to wait 3 weeks to get it.

Just because you see us on the computer doesn't mean we're "playing". We have customers call in for information we have to look up, we use the computer all day long to check our inventory for customers that ask for specific guns. Please keep in mind each store has an inventory of thousands of guns of all types. When you ask us "Do you have (fill in the blank) in stock? We can't possibly know everything we carry. We're not ignorant because we have to look it up.

I had a customer complain to the manager because I didn't help him. He told the manager he looked at me three times. Just because you look at me doesn't mean I see you. We all have other duties besides selling guns that require our attention. We might be involved in that and not realize you're standing at the end of the counter. Walk up and say something if we don't recognize you first. We're happy to help but we can't if we don't know you're there.

Customers come in and demand free ammo, free holsters and try to bargain on the price of a new gun. If they don't get it they'll say "Well Pop's Gun Shop does it" O.K. Pops doesn't have our selection or associated overhead. Maybe we can match Pops price if he's lower but this is a retail store and guns are low margin items. If you want to bargain on a gun price please go to the gun library. They do bargain on the used guns.

Cabela's employees do not work on commission. When we approach you and ask if we can help we mean it. I've had customers throw up their hands at me, completely ignore me and walk away, rudely say NO! and "leave me alone". OK, we get it when you just want to quietly look at guns. A simple, polite "I'm just looking" is fine. We'll walk away but our bosses expect us to approach you and ask if you need help.

My Cabela's customer of the year walked in 10 minutes before closing and began looking at handguns. Ten minutes later the closing announcement was broadcast over the PA system. He ignored it and continued to look at guns. About 10 minutes later he looked up at me and said "I know you're closed, I know you want to go home but I want to look at guns". He continued to look for another few minutes and finally slowly walked out.

I'm not here to say some Cabela's stores can't improve their customer service. At my store we try hard to give superior customer service and I'm sure on occasion we fail at that. All I'm asking is for you to consider that like most things in life there's two sides to every story.

Thanks for listening.

[Blaine]

I've kept my Cabela's Visa. Superior customer service. ..

Oh. So YOU'RE the one that they treat well. I figured that there had to be someone.

These days I use a Citi Double Points card because, well, double. But I had the Cabela's Visa for years and years. I put every penny I spend on a card and with Cabela's that amounted to 250 bucks a year of spending on ammo or other cheap stuff. I have NEVER paid one cent in interest because I go in once a week and pay the balance. I still put my recurring monthly payments on the Cabelas just to keep it up to date.

[Blaine]

Gentleman, I work for Cabela's at the gun counter. Each of you deserve a great customer experience and competitive pricing. However, let me give you a view of things from my side of the counter.

When you buy a gun both the customer and the gun counter employee have to input information into the 4473 form. Store policy requires all electronic or paper forms must be double checked multiple times in the process to insure it is correct. We cannot submit incorrect information to the FBI NICS system. The store's FFL license is at stake. Each Cabela's store is individually licensed. We don't have one corporate license to cover all stores. This can take some time and please remember that once we hit the send button it's completely up to the FBI how long your approval/denial takes to come back. I've had an answer from NICS in 30 seconds and as long as 45 minutes and everywhere in between. Cabela's can't control that time lag. I had a customer demand 20% off of a gun because he had to wait 20 minutes for NICS to answer. He stated "My time is money. Get a Manager over here! I want to be compensated". He didn't get it. He was a rude lower body orifice.

Some of you have commented about "getting something for your time" If your goal is to come into a store to get something discounted or free based on your perception that someone has wasted your time maybe you ought to rethink that.

If you don't like Cabela's prices there is a store policy of price matching other brick and mortar stores within 100 miles for the same in stock item. Take advantage of that. We match prices all the time but please don't bring up an internet advertisement on your phone for a web site 3 states away that drop ships guns and don't carry any inventory and you're going to wait 3 weeks to get it.

Just because you see us on the computer doesn't mean we're "playing". We have customers call in for information we have to look up, we use the computer all day long to check our inventory for customers that ask for specific guns. Please keep in mind each store has an inventory of thousands of guns of all types. When you ask us "Do you have (fill in the blank) in stock? We can't possibly know everything we carry. We're not ignorant because we have to look it up.

I had a customer complain to the manager because I didn't help him. He told the manager he looked at me three times. Just because you look at me doesn't mean I see you. We all have other duties besides selling guns that require our attention. We might be involved in that and not realize you're standing at the end of the counter. Walk up and say something if we don't recognize you first. We're happy to help but we can't if we don't know you're there.

Customers come in and demand free ammo, free holsters and try to bargain on the price of a new gun. If they don't get it they'll say "Well Pop's Gun Shop does it" O.K. Pops doesn't have our selection or associated overhead. Maybe we can match Pops price if he's lower but this is a retail store and guns are low margin items. If you want to bargain on a gun price please go to the gun library. They do bargain on the used guns.

Cabela's employees do not work on commission. When we approach you and ask if we can help we mean it. I've had customers throw up their hands at me, completely ignore me and walk away, rudely say NO! and "leave me alone". OK, we get it when you just want to quietly look at guns. A simple, polite "I'm just looking" is fine. We'll walk away but our bosses expect us to approach you and ask if you need help.

My Cabela's customer of the year walked in 10 minutes before closing and began looking at handguns. Ten minutes later the closing announcement was broadcast over the PA system. He ignored it and continued to look at guns. About 10 minutes later he looked up at me and said "I know you're closed, I know you want to go home but I want to look at guns". He continued to look for another few minutes and finally slowly walked out.

I'm not here to say some Cabela's stores can't improve their customer service. At my store we try hard to give superior customer service and I'm sure on occasion we fail at that. All I'm asking is for you to consider that like most things in life there's two sides to every story.

Thanks for listening.

I'd need a higher dose of Prozac if I started working retail. We have no shortage of gun stores in this area, but the line at the Cabela's gun counter is always long. That should tell you something.
I'll tell you something else about Cabela's, too:
Back in the 2008 Obama Panic when everybody doubled their prices, Cabela's DID NOT. They kept their normal pricing guidelines and would put limits on ammo so everybody had a chance to get some. When they had EBRs and other neat stuff it sold at regular prices. That's when I stopped buying at my favorite local gun store. Mom and Pop jacked up prices, EBRs were double and triple normal, and started hauling out 20 year old stuff .22 ammo and charging 8-10 bucks a box of 50 and it still sold like pancakes.
The same at WalMart...If they had it, it wasn't all overpriced.
I'm willing to guess that in a lot of cases customer service is in direct proportion to the courtesy shown to the salesman

[JohndeFresno]

I remember what Blaine is talking about, since I have purchased powder through Cabela's online when it was overpriced where it was available elsewhere, and certain types were generally unavailable anywhere else (like Unique). Kudos to Cabela's online for several things, including their sportswear.

Shiloh, I also agree that in the sales business (both retail and wholesale), one will have their share of real jerks who cause problems, act like prima donnas, and make life miserable. Cops get that in spades every day, and then get the press on top of them to boot.

But looking at all the complaints above from literally all over the U.S., it would seem to me that it would be a good move for you to find an intelligent, forwarding thinking manager within your chain and share the complaints from the many seasoned correspondents of this site.

For the last couple of years, I for one have been entertaining a trip with a shooting friend or two, to a large Cabela's outlet located distantly from my home town. This was just to see the selection, bargains, and store in general, and predictably to make substantial purchases.

After reading all of the above, word of mouth tends to override any paid advertisements from your employer - I don't think I will bother, now.

I am getting the clear impression that online Cabela's is fine, and in-store Cabela's is staffed largely with grumpy and/or disinterested sales persons and inefficient management.

Whatever happened to periodic and brief in-house training meetings where the Manager reminded the staff that they can simply alert the customer (for instance) "sorry for the delay - we are awaiting an online reply from the FBI (or wherever) so we can process the paperwork" - ? Simple common sense and courtesy.

And from what you have said about checking, double-checking and so on: Sportsman's Warehouse, Herb Bauer's Sporting Goods, and some local Mom and Pop gun stores also must worry about the overbearing, draconian ATF checks and double checks. But through the many years that I have purchased firearms or accompanied others, there was not any ridiculous waiting times for review of the paperwork itself. Just filling in the forms (which are probably the most time-consuming in the nation), followed by a quick check by the clerk and possibly one other person. The waiting period for delivery within my state is of course a separate and unconnected issue.

From the laborious verification procedure you have described, I am reminded of some Project Management training that emphasized one of the Golden Rules of any document handling:
"Touch it once."

Read it thoroughly and carefully once, don't keep it around to read again, and minimize the amount of secondary checks by other people who should be taking care of more important jobs - like attending to customers. If you have a sales clerk who is not competent to correct blanks, spelling or data, let there be ONE point person who is - like I have noticed in various gun stores. His name is "Manager."

Having followed the stock market just a bit through Morningstar and other sources, I saw the huge boom of gun sales under the last person who called himself our President. The overwhelming consensus is that he was the greatest single gun salesman in our history, due to his efforts to disarm us.

With President Trump, you can see an equally huge slump in the stock charts of AOBC (Smith & Wesson's parent company) and VSTO (Vista Outdoors, parent company to RCBS and many other firearms related companies), just to name two.

President Trump's pro-gun stance has ironically and unfortunately driven down the demand of new firearm and firearm related purchases, among a few other factors. So I would guess that Cabela's is keenly interested in keeping up their sales right now.

They need to be more customer oriented within the stores to stay financially healthy and keep their good employees on staff, it would seem to me. Sportsman's Warehouse, for one, seems to be aware of this, and I would think that they are a good model to emulate.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[vancelw]

My experiences at Cabelas are quite often like the OP and others have suggested. It has taken 1.5 to 2 hours to buy a gun before, which is ridiculous. I have a LTC, so no background check is required, so that excuse is moot.

However, yesterday I spent almost 2 hours tire-kicking at the Cabelas in Allen, TX while my wife was at a function elsewhere. I had several employees ask if they could help and they sounded sincere, not forced. I was surprised. They all also went about their business after I explained that in was just looking at that point.

I did find one gun I was tempted to buy, but I had to pick my wife up in and hour and I knew there was no way I could get checked out in that time, so I didn't.

I have purchased many guns from Cabelas Gun Libraries all over the country and had them shipped to my local FFL. The only problem I had was one that I purchased knowing it had some rust on it. When it got to my FFL, some idiot at Cabelas had tried to clean it up for me.

[marlinman93]

Gentleman, I work for Cabela's at the gun counter. Each of you deserve a great customer experience and competitive pricing. However, let me give you a view of things from my side of the counter.



Thanks for listening.

Thanks for your comments, but they don't seem to relate to my particular incident as my 4473 took maybe 5 min. to go through. And I do understand that Cabelas has a policy of double checking all 4473 paperwork, but when a salesman simply tosses it on a counter and doesn't bother too walk up to a coworker and ask him to check the paperwork when he gets time, it's simply rude and unprofessional.
"Playing on the computer" is simply a phrase, and obviously he's not playing games. But when a sales person looks out of the corner of his eye at you, but wont acknowledge you, he's sending the message he doesn't have time for you. When he could simply look up and ask if you need assistance, or have a question. I understand he might only be able to tell me he'll assist when he's done on that task, but to ignore the existence of a customer for 45 minutes, and then stand up and ask how you're doing and walk away is unacceptable. Not sure how you or anyone can make an excuse for that?
I never expected compensation for time lost at Cabelas, even though I was upset by a 2 hr. 37 min. wait. I am retired so it didn't take away from work time. But it's certainly unreasonable to say this is acceptable, or that any excuse (other than waiting for the state to complete the background check) could explain or justify such a lengthy wait to complete a purchase for a gun that was already paid for ahead. I didn't demand anything for free, nor at a discount. I had already paid, so all I wanted was to fill out a 4473, and exit with my gun. Is it too much to ask to get good treatment by employees today? If so, then that explains why I had the experience I had at Cabelas. I must have expected too much to simply complete a purchase without getting attitude, and ignored.
And I can certainly understand a store being busy, but when I see #96 on the take a ticket system, but it takes 30 minutes to get to #97, there's something wrong! Then have a employee who calls out numbers so fast that he goes from 97 to 101 in 5-7 seconds, and wont serve me at #100 because he just said "How can I help you to #101?" Please explain how this is good customer service, or acceptable. Or better yet; explain how you would feel if you approached the salesman and told him you were ahead of customer #101, and he told you you'd have too wait!
I understand you work for Cabelas, and you seem to be a loyal employee. But your entire post seems set on justifying their actions, vs. acknowledging there's any problem at Cabelas. It's as typical of my experience. And with the attitude that Cabelas does nothing wrong, and it's the customers who are to blame, I wont be buying there again. Thanks for confirming my opinion and my decision to steer clear!

[Ray]

Deleted.

[marlinman93]

two hours and thirty seven minutes !…..that is in the running for one of the guinness book records !….

I see comic dramatic representations of the "number" waiting system on t.v. but the only place I have ever had that humiliation forced on me was at the d.m.v. of the local state trooper headquarters…..

Sincee I'd had a previous bad experience with that store, I started the timer on my cell phone as I walked up to the gun counter, and checked it when I turned to walk away. The 2:37 was actual time on my cell phone!!

[jdad]

Vall,
Remember that since we have a CHL we automatically go to the top of the state NCIS check. I have never waited, at other shops, more than 10 minutes for approval, in the last 1.5 years. It's the 7 Cabelas people that have to look over the paperwork, rifle SN, Box SN, etc, to confirm that the last persons OK was really OK that extends the process.

[marlinman93]

Vall,
Remember that since we have a CHL we automatically go to the top of the state NCIS check. I have never waited, at other shops, more than 10 minutes for approval, in the last 1.5 years. It's the 7 Cabelas people that have to look over the paperwork, rifle SN, Box SN, etc, to confirm that the last persons OK was really OK that extends the process.

Yes, I've never taken more than a few minutes to have my background check OK'd. same this time.
But even without Cabelas employees looking over the background check, my purchase of 3 antique rifles with no paperwork, background check, and cash payment; still took 2 hours for them to complete a year ago!
I believe they streamlined things then, as it only took 5 people to look over the figures! A computer totaled it up, and 5 people still had to check the computer to see if it was correct????

[jdad]

Vall,
Remember that since we have a CHL we automatically go to the top of the state NCIS check. I have never waited, at other shops, more than 10 minutes for approval, in the last 1.5 years. It's the 7 Cabelas people that have to look over the paperwork, rifle SN, Box SN, etc, to confirm that the last persons OK was really OK that extends the process.

Yes, I've never taken more than a few minutes to have my background check OK'd. same this time.
But even without Cabelas employees looking over the background check, my purchase of 3 antique rifles with no paperwork, background check, and cash payment; still took 2 hours for them to complete a year ago!
I believe they streamlined things then, as it only took 5 people to look over the figures! A computer totaled it up, and 5 people still had to check the computer to see if it was correct????

Corporate attorneys can turn something so simple into such a major Charlie Foxtrot.

[FWiedner]

I stopped by the local Cabela's tonight to buy new hunting boots.

I checked on-line before I went to the store, and the on-line inventory indicated that what I was looking for was in stock at the store. I proceeded to the display in the shoe dept and pointed out which specific boot I'm interested in. I provided size and width information.

The shoe kid brings out a series of boots, one at a time, all of which are the wrong size and model. He finally manages to come up with one close to being the right boot, the right size, the right color (but still the wrong width) and I tried it on. Not bad, but still too narrow for me. I decided to try a different brand. I pointed that one out to him and away he went. He comes back 20 minutes later and says that he has that boot but not in the size that I'd asked for, like I was gonna ask to try them on... I said "Thanks, anyway."

1000 boots on the shelves and on display, and I can't find one that fits in a style that I favor in the store when it is supposed to be in stock. I went back home and ordered the same boot I tried on in the store (but wider) on-line.

Same store I suppose, but this is why brick and mortar is losing out to e-commerce.

[Blaine]

FWIW, I like mail ordering from Duluth Trading Company. I signed up for their emails and shop the sales. When you receive an item they include a pre-paid return mailing label. I get all my Tee Shirts from them. Better than most.

[marlinman93]

FWIW, I like mail ordering from Duluth Trading Company. I signed up for their emails and shop the sales. When you receive an item they include a pre-paid return mailing label. I get all my Tee Shirts from them. Better than most.

I used to much prefer walking into a store to make purchases, so I could look at the items I bought. But buying online is getting more of my business the last couple years, just because it eliminates stupid sales people.

[ndcowboy]

I've kept my Cabela's Visa. Superior customer service. ..

Oh. So YOU'RE the one that they treat well. I figured that there had to be someone.

These days I use a Citi Double Points card because, well, double. But I had the Cabela's Visa for years and years. I put every penny I spend on a card and with Cabela's that amounted to 250 bucks a year of spending on ammo or other cheap stuff. I have NEVER paid one cent in interest because I go in once a week and pay the balance. I still put my recurring monthly payments on the Cabelas just to keep it up to date.

We are the same way. Switched just about everything to a Citi Double Points card. About once a year we cash it out. Comes out to exactly double of what we would have earned on the Cabelas card. Still keep a couple bills on the Cabelas card just to keep it active for specials.

[David]

If your buying an antique from Cabelas, can't you just buy it online and have it mailed to your house and avoid all this?
It's postage but what's your time worth?

[vancelw]

If your buying an antique from Cabelas, can't you just buy it online and have it mailed to your house and avoid all this?
It's postage but what's your time worth?

Probably, but I wouldn't buy a high-dollar item without right to return it if it's misrepresented. Cabelas Gun Library is notorious for mis-identifying items. That's how sometimes you find a hidden gem. But more often, it's a gold=plated brick.

[marlinman93]

If your buying an antique from Cabelas, can't you just buy it online and have it mailed to your house and avoid all this?
It's postage but what's your time worth?

That depends on Cabelas policy. Most shops only require you send them a driver's license copy to insure you're over 18 yrs. of age. No idea what kind of BS Cabelas might require? But as mentioned; if I have to go inspect it first, then I still have to go to the store. I wont buy a old gun without inspecting what I'm buying.

[765x53]

It seems Cabela's employees have to put up with a lot of gripy old fanny burbs.

[FWiedner]

It seems Cabela's employees have to put up with a lot of gripy old fanny burbs.

I'd translate that to mean that Cabela's does not appreciate a mature customer who expects courteous or competent sales assistance.

[marlinman93]

It seems Cabela's employees have to put up with a lot of gripy old fanny burbs.

Sounds like a Cabelas employee.

[shiloh505]

If you buy something from the Gun Library or a new gun on line you can inspect it and if you don't like it you can immediately return it for a refund. The Gun Library will charge you a $25 fee for shipping the gun in if it came from another Cabela's. It does cost money to ship guns between stores. Once you accept it and do the 4473 it's yours if it's a new gun. Gun Library guns come with a 7 day return guarantee because we realize you're buying a used gun that may have an issue we're unaware of. I've seen refunds given on used guns. It does happen. As for putting up with "gripy old fanny burbs". I'm in that old fanny burp category myself and it isn't an age issue. What does happen is we get some customers of all ages that just want to talk about guns. That's fine and we're willing to talk for a while but some act as if they're the only customer at the counter and literally will talk for an hour or more. We have regulars at our store that we all try to avoid because they want to talk and talk and talk. Even when they buy something it takes an hour just to get through the process with them because they won't stop talking and just do the paperwork.

That may be why some of you have complained about the number system and waiting long periods of time to get through the two or three numbers ahead of you. There's no good way to extricate yourself as a salesman from the talkative customers. We can't be rude and say "Are you going to buy something or not?" You can't say "I've got other customers" and make him think his business isn't important. It's a difficult situation and maybe there's a place like Mom& Pop's Guns to sit around and talk about calibers or guns in general but it isn't at a high volume retail location. Once again I'm just trying to give you a view from the other side of the counter. Flame away guys if you feel the need. I just work at Cabela's my name isn't Cabela. I'm not defending stupid store policies just trying to get you to see that customers can be a part of the problem and often are. A lot of you have complained about your time being wasted and I'm sure it has been due to incompetent or lazy employees but sometimes it's your fellow customers or maybe even you. If you're the one that wants talk endlessly about their knowledge of guns and their shooting abilities yada, yada, yada.

[David]

If your buying an antique from Cabelas, can't you just buy it online and have it mailed to your house and avoid all this?
It's postage but what's your time worth?

Probably, but I wouldn't buy a high-dollar item without right to return it if it's misrepresented. Cabelas Gun Library is notorious for mis-identifying items. That's how sometimes you find a hidden gem. But more often, it's a gold=plated brick.

I wouldn't buy without inspecting either but most times I see something interesting, well there's not even a Cabelas near me
They are no different from the auction houses, half the time they are full of ... on their descriptions some are better then others but...
One is even are owned by a CONVICTED FELON for firearms charges of fraud, no thanks, I'll pass.

[JohndeFresno]

...A lot of you have complained about your time being wasted...sometimes it's your fellow customers or maybe even you. If you're the one that wants talk endlessly about their knowledge of guns and their shooting abilities yada, yada, yada.

HEAR HEAR!
Every medium to large gun store has these ubiquitous gun-talk turkeys and one always seems to get to the counter just before I do.

Maybe a surreptitious application of OC on the counter after a couple of wasted minutes...

[shiloh505]

Fresno you hit it on the head. We'd love to but we are running a retail business.