Introduction and the .348

[moxford]

Greetings!

Disclaimer: Prior to my picking it up the receiver was drilled/tapped for side-scope and the supergrade swivels were removed, so this this is basically a shooter and not a collector's piece.

Mike here, just got my first lever-action (Model 71 Deluxe) and am curious about a few things that I've not been able to resolve through tens of hours of searching. I am hoping that perhaps the community here might be able to fill in a couple outstanding blanks on which direction I should invest my time and money ...

I already have a 30-06 so that range is covered.

.348 is a 50-110 necked down. Good round from what I've read, but finding brass is pretty annoying. Additionally, being in California means that I need to swap to non-lead ammo shortly, and non-lead .348 is especially obscure. The best deal I've found so far is GS Customs but they're a lighter weight at 180gr. They'll hold together better since they're monolithic, but everyone online seems to love the 250s over the 200s so I worry that going even further down (ironically towards the now-discontinued 150gr) is only going to make things worse.

Couple the two together and I'm looking at conversions and wildcats, not so much because MORE BIGGER RAWR but because of component costs -- I'd like to actually shoot this thing.

Going to a 450(.458) Alaskan gives access to the 45/70 bullets, including the Hornady non-lead Monoflex line. Brass remains a bit of a challenge.
Going to the 348-450 AI has the same benefits and challenges above, but I've read that it doesn't feed as smoothly (maybe due to the shoulder?)
Going with a 475 Turnbull is an option, again necked-up .348, but I worry about non-lead leveraction bullets in .475
Going to a 50 Alaskan/50 BM (.510/.500) seems like fun and brass is easier to get since Starline manufactures them, but .5xx non-lead bullets are pricy.
There's the 510 Kodiak Express and 50-110 both of which use 50-110 brass but, again, .5xx non-lead ....

I tried to find a 450-50-110 (50-110 necked down to .458, basically a longer 450 Alaskan) but was unable to find dies. That would give easy access to 50-110 brass AND the .458 non-lead selection. Velocity would seem good at lower pressures and the longer Model 71 action would be able to handle it (the same action in the 1886 would handle 50-110) ... but I don't know about the receiver/feeding modifications to go along with it. I'm guessing the lifter-ramp and possibly the loading gate, but since the 50-110 brass itself is 0.145" SHORTER than the .348 brass, perhaps not as much modification is needed as I think and it's more about bullet-selection?

Also, 50-anything is pretty overkill ... but hey, might be fun as a side note. Mostly I'm hunting pigs/deer/elk/black bear, nothing in Alaska (at this time.) I'm 6'6" 240 and not objected to a little recoil.

For those of you who've done the conversions and likely have hands-on experience in this realm, what are your thoughts/opinions and which way would you lean? I'm not objected to going to something odd since dies and stuff seem to be super expensive anyways ... may as well keep custom dies in the mix. (.35, .416, etc are all options, the question is really finding non-lead flat-nosed/Monoflex bullets for it.)

Or I can leave it in .348 and just keep scrounging for brass. =)

Thanks in advance!

-mox

[Pete44ru]

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Welcome aboard, Mike !

If I were in your situation, Model 71 wise, I'd convert it to the very common .45-70, using a take-off (or new) .45-70 barrel and the lifter from a Model 1886/86.


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[AJMD429]

Not to be snarky, but I'd probably get the heck out of Kalifornia, myself....

HOWEVER, if that isn't an option, the 45-70 might present you with an option to use some decent Barnes or other solid brass bullets, etc.

Regardless, WELCOME to a bunch of fellow lever gunners.

You deserve a high-five for having the temerity to stay in the firearms crowd despite living in an awful place.

Sadly, it is a beautiful place, and hopefully someday the people will wrest control of it from the socialist anti-gunners.

[JerryB]

Welcome to a great bunch of levergun folks.

[Bullard4075]

Welcome! What about going a small step up to 35 cal?

[fordwannabe]

Mike You have a pm.

[Bridger]

We don't allow such threads with no pictures, Mr.
If you're gonna post here, follow the rules....

[moxford]

It's a bog-stock rifle with missing bolt-peep windage, the wrong swivels, and it's been used so the receiver bluing is a touch worn along with the checkering. You can find other beauty queens online ... this one's nice buy won't be winning any ribbons.

45-70 and .358 are both good suggestions.
The conversion to 45-70 seems more risky than going to 450 Alaskan because I think the bolt-face and rims are a bit different, but using an 1886 lifter alleviates some work ... I'll have to research that more.
Bumping up to 35-cal still has the same brass constraints as the .348 (which is the hard part, because while sources for .348 bullets are slim, at least they exist compared to manufacturers for brass which appear to be zero.)

Maybe I should start looking at 50-110 -> .348 forming dies ...

Keep 'em coming, and thanks!

-mox

[tman]

Leave it at .348.

[GunnyMack]

You may find the monolithic bullets shoot fine, since there is no lead to add mass to the bullet they tend to be of similar OAL but they weigh less. You won't really know unless you shoot them.
However, some rifles will shoot mono's very well and some not so much...

Welcome aboard!

[daisygordoninc]

I have a 348, have no problem finding brass, several places make a run once in a while.
It's an amazing gun, plan to moose hunt with it this fall in BC.

[Bill in Oregon]

Mike, why don't you shoot Jamison/Captech an e-mail and ask when they are going to do another brass run? That's a classic and very capable chambering. Also, North Fork makes a 200-grain cup-point solid that ought to be the bomb on big game.

[33wcfshooter]

I'd leave it a 348. Might seem hard to find components but it's worth it great cartridge. Cutting edge bullets make 348 slugs that are turned bronze ok for California I think. I wouldn't be afraid to use the lighter bullets on your game in California the construction of the bullet makes a big difference no core to separate. Jamison should be making a run of cases soon. Hope this helps.

[Kyle B.]

I could sell you a bag or two of new Winchester brass. I use only 250 grain Hawk bullets for my elk hunting and have had great results. The 348 has stout recoil and I doubt you would shoot it a lot. The brass is strong and will last for many re-loadings. I've been shooting mine for years and I'm still on my first bag of 50 brass. It's a great caliber and rifle and I'd leave it just the way it is.

[AJMD429]

The brass is strong and will last for many re-loadings. I've been shooting mine for years and I'm still on my first bag of 50 brass. It's a great caliber and rifle and I'd leave it just the way it is.

Wow....that, plus the bronze bullet option as well makes me think twice about the 45-70 and also say "leave it a 348".....you could always pick up a 45-70 later....

[Rusty]

Welcome to the forum.

[guido4198]

Welcome to the forum.
Of course, it's your rifle and you should do whatever you want with it. That said however...I don't understand the "Drive" to have some kind of conversion done to an awesome original Winchester such as you have.
.348 brass is out there, and it doesn't take hundreds of cases to enjoy all the shooting you'll ever want to do. Keep in mind, other than the 45/70, pretty much ANY of the "wildcat" conversions out there are REALLY gonna cause issues finding good brass.
EVERYBODY makes a 45/70, heck you can pick one of those up in any of a wide variety of makes and models if you like that caliber. ( I love it, and have 2 myself).
I also have an original Win M-71, un-messed with, in .348. I have loaded and shot some full-power jacketed loads. Waaayyyy more than I need for the smallish deer we hunt in S.E. Georgia at relatively close range. I get a LOT more enjoyment out of that old rifle shooting modest cast bullet loadings. You will too and I suspect once you give them a try...you'll lose some of the "need" to convert.
Whatever your choice...ENJOY, and be safe.
After all, if you take one more original M-71 off the market by converting it into something else.... it only helps increase the value of the ones left.

[Malamute]

I dont think any bolt face work is required for 45-70 on a 71. Its a fairly common old school change, just the barrel. Whatever small difference there is doesnt matter in actual use.

Loading gate difference is basically "getting around the corner" with longer fatter cartridges. The side of the bullet on the opposite side of the frame, and the near side inside of the frame ahead of the gate are the main culprits I believe. Ive forced 50-110 and 45-90 cartridges intop a browning 86, thats the spots they get tight at. hey do go, just not as smoothly as desired. i dont think its major work to clean up.

Having said all that, I agree, leaving it alone is a good choice. The 348 cartridge is excellent, and brass does turn up now and then. If you dont mind paying the high prices during the non-production periods, youd have the brass, for still probably less than the dies for the more unusual calibers. Is non-lead ammo required just for shooting, or only for hunting?

I looking into making a 45-70 into a 50-110, and have seen a number of older 71 rebarreled to 45-70 over the years. I talked to gunsmiths about both, but ended up just staying with 348 in a 71 and 45-70 in 86s. It takes about 2 heartbeats to sump a large amount of money into the required dies, gun work, brass and such once the decision to make major changes happens. If I were going to "different", Id probably go 45-90. Not really required over a 45-70 with stout loads, but different, and 45-70s can be used if desired or saving the longer, more expensive brass for fun shooting.

348 makes a good small game and grouse gun with a .350" round ball and 4 grs Red Dot. Makes about as much noise as a 22. Does mangle grouse or small game, just a large clean hole through them. It does, however, ruin snakes heads quite well. They arent made very stoutly.

[moxford]

Well, after much looking and thinking, I think I will keep it as a 348 now that I've found a few pieces of brass to load up (with a BIG thank you to fordwannabe for finding someone who had a bag!)

Thank you to everyone! When I started down this road I was thinking about a new 1895, the laminate Marlin/Remlin with the XS rail in 45-70. A good looking rifle (to my eye, anyways) but It was a post about one of Harold Johnson's rifles that turned my head and made me do a hard turn to the Model 71.

That image, a Model 71 in 50 Alaskan with what looks like an extended magazine and something akin to a shotgun (Win 1897?) forestock...


The 348 was a "sacrificial" caliber on the road to building something along the lines of the above ... but the more I looked at the 348 and spoke to others, including this community, the more I realized just how much of an interesting cartridge the 348 actually is on its own.

Thanks again!

-mox

[JerryB]

Now that sounds like real good idea. Never found a 348 that I could afford.

[Daisyman]

Welcome to the forum!!
I rarely post on here, but I patrol the forum now and then, and anything .348 peaks my interest. I'd have to agree to leave it as it is. I hunted for years with a 2nd year deluxe, and really enjoyed it. Whitetail deer was about always a one shot stop if I did my part. That's the only thing I hunted with it and it was very effective for those. My favorite gun, by far.

[brucew44guns]

I've been a non hunter for a long time, but do own an original Deluxe model 71, low 4,000 serial number, mint condition. I was always impressed so much with the way the 200 grainer Winchesters tipped over an elk in Oregon, that I purchased, over a few years, 60 boxes of ammo, have 750 new Winchester cases. I suppose some would think it's a nice problem to have, no complaints here. So impressed with a 71 as I was and am, I acquired, unfired, all 4 Browning reproduction guns, in carbine and rifle, have both the hi and lo grades. You could say I like the .348.

[Malamute]

I believe Danny said he was getting 30+ inches of penetration on elk with the regular Hornady 348 200 gr flat point jacketed bullet. The premium grade copper bullets will likely do a bit better, even if slightly lighter, or whatever weight is available.