More on 44-40 exploring reloading

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Carlsen Highway
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More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I came back from hunting back in April quite happy with my Winchester 73 short rifle. I had shot two deer with it on its first trip. I had done it with black powder loads of my own with bullets I had cast myself.

Image

Everything was fine except I knew the rifle was shooting high, so I took myself to the range to adjust this. I confirmed that yes the rifle was shooting high at 50 metres, about six inches high, I had it on the wrong rear sight elevation notch...no wonder I had hit those deer high.
But I immediately discovered a further problem - after loading up some new cartridges and when shooting a group at 50 metres, the rifle that I had thought was accurate, shot a very large disorganised group. Five rounds went all over the place. This is with black powder. I changed to an old smokeless load with H4198, the rifle shot better again.
My black powder loads no longer were any good.
I went and looked at the original targets I had fired before I went hunting. I had only fired one group at 100 metres to confirm the zero before I took it on the hunting trip. It had performed well enough in that test - five shots into a three inch group. I had been perfectly satisfied. Now I found I could not shoot better than a six inch group at 100 metres.
Perhaps that first group had just been lucky. Perhaps I was under a misapprehension.


Now began an intensive series of sessions over the last few weeks of loading, shooting and testing the .44-40 to try and get this rifle to reliably shoot a three inch group at 100 metres with a black powder load and cast bullets. I have shot a lot of lead and blown up a lot of powder and washed a lot of cases.

Image
( I didn't like the colour case hardening on the Uberti, and so I blued the receiver. It came out pretty good I reckon, it now has a dark worn-looking gunmetal look. The rifle now looks like it was made in 1916, that has had a new barrel put on it. Which is fine with me.)

I have had very little encouragement from the rifle when there is black powder involved. Everything I tried resulted in five to six inch groups with black powder. With smokeless and the same bullet and lube, I could reliably shoot five shots into four inches, with a 220 grain bullet at slightly over 1300 fps - which is certainly good enough for anything I wanted to do with a .44-40, but I wanted this rifle to be a black powder shooter. The smokeless loads are for my '92 carbine.
First I tried lube. Maybe I hadn't got the mixture right. I tried duplex loads with a primer of smokeless under black powder. This produced some abysmal groups and one particularly encouraging one. But it showed that it probably wasn't a fouling issue. Fouling seemed to be fine when I cleaned the rifle. I know what hard fouling is like.
I ordered a better powder, rather than our local product. Possibly my powder wasn't right.
I got some German 3F Schuetzen. Groups with 36 grains of 3F remained in the five inch group size. Belatedly, after doing a lot of shooting I did what I should have done at first and fired a group while cleaning the rifle inbetween each shot. I got a target like the one above once more. Five inches. It wasn''t the fouling.

I remembered John Kort writing that Winchester used to use a thin card wad between powder and bullet. I knew that other who shot BPCR used card wads. I tried them. Different thicknesses. This was interesting and resulted in some interestingly erratic results - a lot of narrow stringing up and down, most of a good group with wild flyers; enough encourage me to keep me on this road for a while, until I realised that taking several targets as a whole, it all probably amounted to gibberish. I was seeing patterns because I was looking for patterns. I was seeing meaning in the shadows of leaves. In the flight of sparrows.

I wondered if perhaps it was my shooting. I am shooting open sights, the original factory buckhorn. To my eyes the buckhorn notch on the Uberti 73 is too wide. I researched the original Winchester 73 sights. On photographs I have seen, the original seems to have a much narrower - and shallower notch, which would be better.
I do a lot of open sights shooting and have done it well, I know what works for me. But maybe the eyesight in my right eye is not what it was. I went to the optometrist. I got new contact lenses.

I took my Springfield 1903 to the range, with its peep sight. I put five shots into 1.5 inches, which is what it will do. I took my mighty Winchester 94 carbine, the most accurate .30/30 I have ever met, the one I refuse to put a peep sight on or a scope, because I will not touch the bead and factory rear sight it has in case I smudge the magic, and I put four rounds through the centre of the bead at 100 metres.

The Uberti factory rear sight didn't help I decided. I have no problem with the buckhorn sight design, I do not look down upon it at all. I understand it and I work with it fine. But on this rifle the notch was wrong. It's too wide and too deep I decided. I was having trouble judging elevation. I also wondered it it was too close to my 46 year old eyes to focus properly. I measures sight distances on my other rifles. I took my SKS to the range which has the rear sight the same distance away from the shooter and the same sight radius or less. I put five Chinese military FMJ into three inches.

I took the Winchester and I knocked the rear sight out and put it in a tin. I found a flat top, U- notch three-leaf sight from a 1950's Husqvarna Mauser bolt action, and fitted it into the dovetail. It fitted perfectly. It was also a couple of inches further forward which could only help bring things into better focus. I measured carefully and judged that the point of impact would be in the ballpark.

Image

I was satisfied with this sight. (I didnt even have to touch it at the range after I tapped it in - It turned out to shoot exactly to point of aim at 100 metres, or a little low with some loads - which is good, I dont want it too high at 50 metres.)

But it didn't help. I still shot the same five inch to six inch groups.

I needed a control. Was it the rifle or the loads? Now I was worried about the rifle. Now I wanted to see a good group of any kind. Anything less than five inches would do. I was feeling a little bit of desperation.
I loaded some 240 grain Jacketed XTP's as a control. I tried them with the H4198 smokeless bulk load, and lastly I tried the best version of the duplex H4227 / blackpowder load.
At 100 metres the smokeless load put five shots into a neat two inch group. The duplex black powder load shot four rounds into slightly over an inch, with one flyer pushing the group out to three inches.

This didnt solve my problem because the rifle cannot feed 240 grin XTPs - too long for the elevator,I couldnt use those cartridges for anything. But I was relieved. The gun shot fine.

It had to be something about the bullet.

If it wanst the lube and it wasnt the load, I thought, maybe its the bullets I am casting. They were made from pure lead, sized one thousand over diameter. The design was valid. I got it from Accurate Molds, its John Korts's version of the Lyman 429 bullet with a large lube groove intended for black powder. It shot very well in my Rossi with smokeless loads.
I started thinking about bullet alloys. I tried adding tin. I bought expensive solder and added it to my pure lead mix. I shot groups with 1:50 alloy. I tried 1:40 alloy. 1:20 ally. I bought cheap old pewter tankards from the local junk shop and melted them down. I tried 1:16 alloy.

With my Duplex load of 6 grains of H4227 under 32 grains of Schuetzen 3F, compressed .20 of an inch, in unsized brass, with loads made from each alloy mix I was shooting three inch groups at 100 metres. The black powder 36 grain load didnt change from five inch groups.
At 1:16 alloy, the duplex load started shooting groups similiar to the jacketed control results. The photo below shows a jacketed group at the top, and a 1:16 cast bullet group at bottom, which measures 2.5 inches and with four shots in 1.5 inches.

Image

This is about the best I can do. I am satisfied with this duplex load and will use it. Shooting black powder with a smokeless priming is time-honoured also, Townsend Whelen wrote of it. Target shooters used it for decades last century. I didn't come up with it, again, as with many of the successful things I have tried with the .44-40, I have been pointed in the right direction by Mr John Kort, whose experiments and writings on this forum and others, and personal correspondence, have been invaluable. (My prayers for his health at this time.)

I would really like to have a good pure black powder load, but I have not yet achieved it. The best of an average bunch so far is 40 grains of Schuetzen 3F under the same 217 grain 1:16 bullet, which I can shoot four - five inch groups with.

If anyone has any insight into achieving that let me know. I no doubt have missed trying something obvious, but I am all out of ideas at the moment. I am shot out.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by M. M. Wright »

I have a few questions. What does your bore slug? What diameter are you sizing your bullets? What is the twist in your barrel?

Is it possible that the twist rate in your barrel is too slow for the heavier bullets? Since the 217 grain cast very hard is starting to shoot more accurately I'd look hard at my muzzle to see if I had enough lube of the right kind, (I mostly use SPG) to get a good star on there. My Uberti 73 in 44-40 was quite erratic until I got a bullet with enough lube to carry to the end of it's 24" bbl even wiping between shots. The wife's with 20" barrel was more forgiving.

Any chance you've got some leading in that bore? I went down to 40:1 alloy looking for better expansion and got some leading in mine.

I am using ffg Goex. 35 or 36 grains with .12 card wad over powder then 200 grain RNFP sized .429. Went to the expander from 44 Mag to get the correct bullet pull with Lee factory crimp in the last hole of my Dillon 550.

Sounds like you've thought of most everything but I've been shooting black for 60+ years and 44-40 is "my" caliber. I'm sure you'll get lots of "help" here.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by marlinman93 »

Have you checked the bore lately for any possible signs of leading? A little lead build up can wreak havoc on group sizes.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Carlsen, can't offer any suggestions but simply must applaud your diligence and patience in working through this problem. Bravo!
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

The bore slugs .430 of an inch which married with Uberti's published literature.
The bullets drop from the mold at .431 when made of pure lead, and .433 when at 1:16 tin alloy, and I shoot them as they are. (The .433's chamber with slight resistance)I have not sized any of the bullets so far.
I have not measured the twist, but according to what I have read it will be a 1-20 twist which is what Uberti changed the .44-40 to a few years ago. The older ones were 1:36. According to my calculations either twist should stabilise 200 - 240 grain bullets fine, and in actual fact as the target above shows, it shoots 240 grain XTP's just fine. Just not with black powder!

I really thought I was onto something with the overpowder card wads, since so many people seem to use them, and the theory sounded right, but testing demonstrated no advantage, or it distinctly got worse.

Leading - I have noticed not a single trace of lead in the bore of the rifle at any time - until I started shooting 1:16 alloy just recently. And this amount is small in my opinion, I can get it out with two swipes of a brush. I am not sure why this should be, other than the bullet is a little bit harder. However, my alloy is not pure - my tin nowadays is from pewter, and while it may have 95 - 97% tin, it will also have some other metals mixed in those last couple of percent, copper and antimony I have read. Might make a difference. (Probably not.)
My lead is pure soft lead from electrical sheathing.
(I have tried wheel weights mixed with pure lead, 50:50 and it made no difference, in fact it was very soft and still mostly pure lead as far as I could tell.)

At present my situation with a pure black powder load is :

217 grain 1:16 bullet diameter .433
Lube is 1 part beeswax and 3 parts tallow
40 grains of FFF German Schuetzen powder
Unsized Starline brass, expanded with a .44 Mag die just enough to start a bullet
Powder compressed with a jacketed bullet
Seated to the cannelure and with a very light crimp
Velocity: 1225 fps (in a 20 inch barrel)
Group is: 4.5 inches at 110 yards for 9 shots. Shot with wiping the bore after the fifth round. (A tenth shot on the left was a flyer blowing it all out to six inches, but I am ignoring this for now because it is annoying and it threatens my view of the world.) The distribution of shots is pretty evenly around in a 4.5 inch circle.

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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by J Miller »

First, I've never loaded any .44 W.C.F. (44-40) for any type of gun although I do have dies and some brass.
Second, what I have to say is from reading and research and loading the .45 Colt which suffers from the same inconsistency of specs.

Modern guns are not chambered for the old 44 W.C.F. specs; .427" +/- grove diameter with very soft hollow based lead bullets or later .428" jacketed bullets.

The hollow base .427" bullets are small enough to chamber in most any gun, and soft enough to expand to fill the bore or chamber throats of the guns fired in thus producing at least reasonable accuracy.

Modern guns are so far out of specs that the 44-40 is basically a wildcat that you have to custom load to each gun or series of guns you have for it.
I think if you could get an original mold for the 205gr HB RNFP, or perhaps a modern 205gr mold, and cast it soft, you'd find your accuracy much improved. And you wouldn't have to cast them so large they wont chamber in your rifles.

Just my knowledge from reading and shooting the ,45 Colt which is also a victim of inconsistent specs.


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Last edited by J Miller on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carlsen Highway
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Joe,
I may not have made it clear in my posts that I have a .430 bore and I am casting and shooting .431 (depending on the alloy up to .433) bullets.
I started with a mold based on the original .44-40 bullet design, using pure lead bullets, and moved to other tin/lead alloys from there, when I saw that the rifle shot very well with a harder jacketed bullet.

My journey and quest has been to try and get the rifle to shoot as well with my own cast bullets and a full black powder load.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Here is a question, a riddle if you will :

If the rifle will shoot a duplex load of 6 grains of H4227 under 32 grains of BP, and a 217 grain bullet very well, then what variables would cause a decrease in accuracy when shooting the same bullet with a full black powder load of 36 - 40 grains?
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by w30wcf »

Howdy. I'm still hanging in there, thankfully, no doubt to the many who have been praying for me.
Wow, you certainly have been doing a lot of testing!

Hmmmm,.
If the humidity is low....say less than 30%, that could be the reason of the less accuracy of the straight b.p. load.
Another reason might be that the duplex load has a slower start than the all b.p.
You might try weighing your bullets for consistency if you are not already doing so to eliminate that variable.
Use bullets that are within + - .5 gr of each other.

Regarding the 240 xtp, you could load a few less grs of powder and seat the bullet to the correct OAL then crimp likely on the base of the ogive.

Have Fun!

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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by ollogger »

Been enjoying your post very much & can feel your frustration on your dilemma on big groups.
long story short in my case, my groups started to go down hill at bout 50, so went to receiver sights on a few lever guns
now 12 years later I put a scope on my 1894s in 44-40 & it shoots neat little groups with cast bullets
with out the scope it was hit & miss, one day good the next day was bad, it was bad enough that one day I had to add insult
to injury by shooting better groups with my stubby 357 mag at 60 yards, I really like the 44-40 so I caved in and put the scope on
Some bbl sights are ok for me & after much experimenting I have a few that work well for me on 94s that will not ware glass




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Carlsen Highway
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

w30wcf wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:40 pm Howdy. I'm still hanging in there, thankfully, no doubt to the many who have been praying for me.
Wow, you certainly have been doing a lot of testing!

Hmmmm,.
If the humidity is low....say less than 30%, that could be the reason of the less accuracy of the straight b.p. load.
Another reason might be that the duplex load has a slower start than the all b.p.
You might try weighing your bullets for consistency if you are not already doing so to eliminate that variable.
Use bullets that are within + - .5 gr of each other.

Regarding the 240 xtp, you could load a few less grs of powder and seat the bullet to the correct OAL then crimp likely on the base of the ogive.

Have Fun!

W30wcf

W30wcf Good to hear!
I didnt think of loading less powder to seat the 240g XTP deeper...but remembering my experiments with duplex priming in this rifle with H4227 and BP, I found that I had no success with anything but this load, I tried lessor amounts of 4227 3 - 6 grains and BP from 30 grains to 35 g and all o the results were horrible - 6 - 7 inches - this load of 6g 4227 and 32g 3F BP is a good one, but the only one that I could discover...upon reflection the fact that this load has the highest amount of smokeless in it must indicate something. The answer must lie there somewhere....I can feel it.

Thinking that the smokeless H4198 and the duplex had a slower start was what convinced me that an overpowder wad to protect the base of my bullet was the answer, but I couldnt get it to work. MAybe there is something else I can used as an overpowder card wad? Maybe I am not using the right material?

I havn't tried an overpowder card with the 1:16 alloy though....

This may never end, I think I have shot around 300 rounds through it since April.

Ollogger, Thinking about your post, I am starting to think a tang sight might be a good idea for my situation...
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by dromia »

What primer are you using?

My BP 44-40 loads like a large pistol magnum primer, also the black powder needs compressing at least 1/16".
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Stevie »

I've got a trio of .44-40 rifles. and non of them have the same bore size although the two Winchesters are close at .430" and .431" bore. My older Rossi carbine has the truest to published bore diameter at an even .427"...however a lot of the bullets you buy in .44 caliber supposedly of the .44-40 are way small! Even bullets that are supposedly .428"/.429" for .44 Special or .44 Magnum are smaller than advertised diameter.

I've had pretty good luck with Trail Boss maximum loads in my .44-40 guns. They might be a bit mild for hunting but they shoot well from 2 of my guns with lead bullets.

My old M1892 carbine has a fairly bad bore and does not cope well with lead bullets at all!! Will lead the barrel with but few shots. I use the same Trail Boss max load with Speer 200gr jacketed hollowpoints(which mic like .426"!)...These shoot well from the ancient Winchester with rotten bore...but I have issues with crimping them tight enough to hold the bullet in the mag. I either crush the case(ruined a bunch of cases) or don't get a crimp I trust. I bought a Redding crimp die however I have not got back to reloading for the bad-bored Winchester yet.....
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Lefty Dude »

If you are switching between Lead and jacketed bullets with out totally cleaning the bore before shooting lead, I would say that might be you problem. That bore must be clean from all Jacketed fouling for the piece to shoot Lead accurately.
By clean I mean not a trace of fouling or grey color on a clean patch.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Stevie »

Lefty Dude wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:45 pm If you are switching between Lead and jacketed bullets with out totally cleaning the bore before shooting lead, I would say that might be you problem. That bore must be clean from all Jacketed fouling for the piece to shoot Lead accurately.
By clean I mean not a trace of fouling or grey color on a clean patch.
Are you referring to my post immediately above yours?...Answer is no....I own three .44-40(.44 wcf) long-guns...one has a rotten bore and will not shoot lead for love nor money without leading...it is a rocky-road and probably rode with Pancho Villa...that is the one that must have jacketed bullets....The other two are ok with lead bullets...
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Lefty Dude »

Reference was for the OP.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Nath »

For pure black I would crush as much in as humanly possible!
Also, if I saw no wet star at the muzzle I would thin my lube more with olive oil or suchlike until I did.

Other than that I have nothing to suggest having little experience with 44/40.

Great read though. Thanks.

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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Nath, I have thought of adding more oil to my lube too, I was thinking canola oil.

Also, I have read some 19th century stuff where they recommended 2F as being more accurate for the .44 - which is what John Kort uses also, and Winchester used themselves in their factory ammo...I am feeling a bit silly for not trying 2f powder long before now....that will be my next step.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by fordwannabe »

I am following this with much interest, please keep updating us with your results. Thanks. TOM
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Nath »

Lubricant is critical with black powder in my opinion.
I don't like large groove bullets for lube.
If the lube falls away or part falls away it will help destabilise the bullet.

One possible way to help diagnose a lubricant issue is to try a grease cookie!

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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I do have a bullet with a large lube groove. I tried another bullet design, which was the 429098 bullet with the two smaller lube grooves, and got the same results, but I only shot one group....

I have been resisting experimenting with a grease cookie because it seemed out of place for a .44-40, and also will necessarily take up powder space in the case, but I should try it I suppose, to see if it adds information.

I might be wrong but I concluded I didnt have a lube issue after shooting a group and wiping after each individual shot - and getting the same 5-6 inch group I always get. However if lube is destabilising the bullet then that control test will not have shown up anything...I will think about that.
I am using 1 part beeswax to 3 parts tallow, I didnt think I could get simpler or more appropriate for black powder than that, but I will try adding some oil too, and making it wetter.

Just to add some more info that has come up recently, I have just figured out how to cast bullets with knife sharp bottom edges, which I wasnt doing before. Previouslu this didnt stop me shooting 2 inch groups with a duplex load, but it might make a difference with straight BP, who knows. It cant hurt anyway, I reckon.

I have great hopes for adding some canola oil to the lube, and trying 2F powder.

I am going to need some more cases soon, nearly all my starline has developed split case mouths. Dropping the resizing stage allowed them to last longer, but expanding the case mouth with the 44 Magnum die is what is doing it. I have tried annealing them, and it works for a while, but eventually they all get splits in the case mouth. I have been disppointed with this, I expected my brass to last forever, but it is not the case.
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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Nath »

When you wiped the bore each shot you may of removed lubricant! A coating of lubricant for the whole length of barrel is crucial, much like a 22lr!
So therefore you would/could get the same results!
Thus possibly pointing to the problem!

Can you check the crown? Maybe with a cotton bud and magnifying glass to see if any fibres get plucked.

Has the barrel been parted off well? Or did it get some crimping action by to high a feed speed of the tooling?
Look for flaring of bullet deposits in the grooves at the muzzle.

Best wishes.

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Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Nath,
I didn't think of that!
I will see how much of a lube star I have next time I shoot, try and take a picture of it if I can get it to shine in the light. I do not have hard fouling building at the muzzle, I know what that is like.

I have looked at the crown, just to see if there is anything obvious but I have not examined it in detail with a magnifying glass, I will have a look and see if fouling is running off the grooves or is lopsided or something, but I wouldn't have thought I had a crown issue if I can get the rifle to shoot very well with jacketed and duplex cast loads and just not with straight BP...
The more you look at it objectively the more it has to be a lube problem doesn't it...

I will try 2F, and then if I have no joy there I will start looking at lubricant again. Maybe my lube is just wrong for BP.
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M. M. Wright
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Location: Vinita, I.T.

Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by M. M. Wright »

Bite the bullet and buy some SPG bullet lube and try it. Yeah, it's a little expensive but we know it works. Too, I think you need to size your bullets. Mostly to be sure they are round and uniform.

I like ffg and about 1/8 inch compression and if you really want good accuracy it must be drop tubed. When you get it right it will crack instead of boom.

You can true up that crown by silver soldering a ball bearing to a short piece of drill rod and using valve grinding compound and a hand drill to hone the end of the bore. I use my air motor but a re-chargeable drill/screwdriver should work a treat.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
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Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8660
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: More on 44-40 exploring reloading

Post by Nath »

With respect, I don't use single directional tools. I do it by hand with a forward and reverse action and walk around the upright gun all at the same time!

N.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!
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