Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

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Old Time Hunter
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Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Sorry about starting this one again...but took the Browning out again this past weekend, still does not even get close to touching the primer when firing.

Question is...do I have to completely disassemble and take the bolt out of the receiver to take the firing pin out?

Or can I just drift this pin out and disassemble while still in the receiver? Trying to minimize the chances for putting tool marks or scratches on the screw heads.

Image

It appears that when using a dowel to push the "rebound" striker button flush with the actual firing pin that the pin does not protrude from the face of the bolt. If I use a smaller diameter dowel, I can push the rebound button along with the rear of the firing pin past the end of the hammer side of the bolt, and then the pin will stick out about .060 or so from the bolt face.

Problem is, the hammer would not be able to do this as it is larger than the diameter of the rear portion of the firing pin...so it would stop before the pin would be exposed on the face of the bolt.

Therefore, would like to take the firing pin out and measure it, possibly put a stiffer spring in the "rebound" button cavity...or find some other solution to make this gun fire reliably.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Here is the position of the firing pin when the hammer (or flat substitute) has fully depressed the rebound button AND the REAR OF THE FIRING PIN against the back of the bolt:
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by vancelw »

That's an inertia firing pin.
I had a similar problem with a Browning 71. The pin was just bowed enough that the leading point of the firing pin was hitting the hole in the frame rather than passing cleanly through it. I could manually push it through, but the inertia of the hammer hitting it was not enough to overcome the resistance.

I had to completely disassemble the action to get the bolt out and straighten out the firing pin. Then couldn't get the rifle back together. After much cursing and gnashing of teeth, I left the rifle on the kitchen table and went to bed. Next morning it went back together easy peasy.

I don't know it there is a shortcut to getting that pin out. I don't think so. There was a thread on this forum that helped me with the disassembly/reassembly. I think Hobie had posted a link to his blog that had the article. If I can find it I will repost it.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

That pin is for the extractor.

You have to remove the bolt, or at least remove the lever and its pin to the bolt, that's part of what holds it in, don't recall about the Browning, if theres more.

The Brownings don't have a longer firing pin than the channel in the bolt, like an older 94, its inertia, like a 1911. They modified it to also have a sleeve around it I think, that also prevents movement unless its struck by the hammer, not just like dropping it on the muzzle or whatever.

If its not firing, besides cleaning the firing pin and its channel in the bolt, polishing it to remove burrs or whatever may help it.

ETA: This didn't have info about taking the firing pin from the bolt, but the parts schematic diagram may give enough info. Ive not had to take mine apart so far. If it doesnt shape up with a cleaning and deburring, it may be worth seeing if an original 86 or 71 firing pin can be adapted, and just do away with the modern safety parts in the firing pin, or, have somebody make one.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25712

Or

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... 6-Tutorial

If you have someone make one, the flats on the sides of the firing pin are for the tip of the lever to fit around, the lever mechanically retracts the firing pin on the first part of opening up. The firing pin spring (po70114)wasn't part of the original setup, they had none. The forward part of the firing pin was fatter with only a short front section getting smaller diameter.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Darn...wanted to stay away from complete disassembly. No matter how hard I try, I end up with witness marks somewhere.

Hard to figure out how the firing pin would have a bow in it...the thing only fired once at the factory when it was made back in '86....1986.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by vancelw »

Once you get it out and see how it's made you'll understand. Over engineered.
I have heard of people replacing the firing pin with one-piece pins. I couldn't find one
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Well...already messed up the screw on the loading gate...broke two screw driver tips, and had to use a smaller one. Of course it slipped...still is not loose either, have to figure out how to loosen without any catastrophic damage.

Any ideas?

Will have to purchase a new screw for the gate, might as well get a whole kit.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Ok experts...got the gun apart and will have to live with the witness marks the disassembly caused (nothing due to my surgically steady hands, I am sure...NOT).

But...how do you extract the firing pin from the bolt? Have the extractor off...so all I can tell is that is left is the bolt and pin.

When I try and push it out the back...it freezes in place and even with a drift will not budge. Am I missing something?
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by vancelw »

IIRC, you have to take out one or both of those pins in the bolt. I don't remember it being too difficult to figure out, but I have slept since then.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

That funny little dogleg part (po70110) in the parts diagram is part of the inertial safety. I don't know exactly how the firing pin comes out, but think it has to have the small inner part of the rear firing pin pushed in, then that releases the rest of it (in other words, push the inner part in from the back, then while its in, push the entire thing out backwards from the exposed recess where the lever pins in). Ive not had one apart, but have some spare parts. Not all of them, so they may not help any. I'll get them out and look.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by flatnose »

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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

Its a Browning, not a Winchester/Miroku, it doesn't have a rebounding hammer.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Ok...called Browning, they said to turn the pin 180 degrees and pull it out.

Actually you need to depress the pin as far as possible and turn it 90 degrees...then it came right out.

Image

Now to figure out how to remedy the none striking issue...have requested OAL dimensions from Browning and any assistance (they do not seem too helpful by the way as they want me to take it to a "certified" gunsmith).

But...from what I can tell, would like to get rid of that spring in the safety stop along with locking the inertia button...believe that would drive the pin!
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by flatnose »

Malamute wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:03 pm Its a Browning, not a Winchester/Miroku, it doesn't have a rebounding hammer.
Oops, I used to be positive, but now I am not so sure. :roll:
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Anyone have suggestions as to what to do to make the striker hit harder?

I am thinking that weakening the front return spring (P070114) on schematic above by cutting a coil or two off and then stretching it back to original length, would that work?

It feels as though the P070114 is stiffer than the P070108 spring behind the inertia button on the hammer side of the firing pin.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

With it cleaned up, how much moving resistance is there of the firing pin in its channel in the bolt if its not indexed for the inertial safety to work normally?

I compared a spare original type model 71 firing pin with the spare Browning pin. It may be possible with a little lathe work to get the older type pin into the Browning bolt. Homestead I believe has reproduction firing pins for $25. If you have a drill press, you may also be able to turn it down enough to make it work also, but I didn't make a detailed comparison, there may be more to it than just reducing the diameter a little in the forward part (not the tip).

I was wondering if silver soldering the inertial safety parts and inside rear firing pin part solidly into place would allow it to work more efficiently?

I'll get a pic of the Browning and older Winchester type firing pins side by side.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

Sorry for the blue look, I don't have editing software in this computer.
downsized_0413170820.jpg
0413170829.jpg

I haven't had a Browning apart to see, but if the extractor pin is holding the firing pin in, you may need to turn a section of the Winchester type pin down a bit to work. Its just a guess, but probably not as much as the Browning pin is in the middle. If the Winchester pin was polished down the few thousandths to fit in the Browning bolt, you could then see if it slid through far enough to hit the primer without further work on it. Id ditch the front firing pin spring if you get an earlier type Winchester pin, they never had one. The design mechanically retracts the firing pin when the lever starts to move to open the action and keeps the pin back until the bolt is closed. It can move when the action is open most of the way, but don't think it should when its close to being closed.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Thanks Malamute...

After cleaning and using a polishing cloth on the pin, I re-installed it. The pin moves freely...until the front firing pin shoulder (.312") begins to go inside the cavity on the front of the bolt. Then I have to force to be able to get the actual pin through the head of the bolt.

Visually cannot tell if it is the pin it self or the actual assembly that is causing the resistance...guess I need a flat plate and needle gauge.

Or could it be a non concentric machining issue with the bolt?
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

Is that with the inertial safety parts oriented so they aren't lined up with their groove to stop forward motion?

If so, the bolt may have a burr in it. Did you clean the firing pin hole in the bolt with solvent and a 22 or similar small brush?


(edit to fix what stupid spell correct messed up)


I found coarse drill chips/ribbons in the chamber of a Colt percussion gun, they were still attached to the metal, never broken free. Nobody looked in it apparently when they did the machine work or after. Your bolt may have a burr or chip hanging up the firing pin movement, or there may be dried oil hanging it up?
Last edited by Malamute on Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Believe this is contributing to my issue, might not be all of it, but...
The Safety Stop on my assembly was not square, but was chamfered with the high side facing the bolt face:
Image

The inertia slide pin is supposed to have enough force, to push the spring against the lower dog leg of the safety stop, to retract the safety dog leg beneath the surface of the body of the rear part of the bolt. This allows the entire firing pin assembly to expose the actual point of the pin beyond the face of the bolt. Not only does the velocity of the hammer have to be sufficient to yield enough energy transfer to propel the inertia slide to overcome the internal safety spring (#22) that pushes the lower dog leg of the safety stop...it has to transfer that momentum through the entire pin to overcome the external spring in the front (#25).
Image

Seems to be better, still have to field test it...
Image

If anyone else has any ideas, it would be much appreciated to have your advice.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

You may be onto it.

Did you disassemble the safety parts and see if the firing pin slides forward in the bolt without hanging up at the forward end? If it hangs up without the safety parts, there may be a burr or crud.

If it doesn't hang up with no safety parts, or your modification doesn't help, perhaps taking some more off the safety rocker dog (no 23 in the illustration you posted) would help?
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by vancelw »

Take the firing pin out and roll it on a flat,level surface. You can tell easily if it is bowed or not. Bend it straight by trail and error. When it's straight it will pass through the hole in the bolt face with no resistance
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

flatnose wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:13 pm
Malamute wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:03 pm Its a Browning, not a Winchester/Miroku, it doesn't have a rebounding hammer.
Oops, I used to be positive, but now I am not so sure. :roll:
I thought I was wrong once... but I was mistaken !
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Malamute wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:08 pm You may be onto it.

Did you disassemble the safety parts and see if the firing pin slides forward in the bolt without hanging up at the forward end? If it hangs up without the safety parts, there may be a burr or crud.

If it doesn't hang up with no safety parts, or your modification doesn't help, perhaps taking some more off the safety rocker dog (no 23 in the illustration you posted) would help?
Falls right through! Gravity is enough.

Re-assembled still feels like it takes more than necessary to recess that dog...is it a safety to prevent the hammer from inadvertently pushing the pin against the primer? Would not a half cock do the same?
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

I think it serves two purposes, one, to avoid a hammer down, impact to hammer discharging the gun, as the older style can do, and probably as a drop safety. I don't recall reading official information about their intent.

I cant tell anyone else what to do, but the old style half cock safety has always been OK with me and Ive not had any neglgent or accidental discharges with the half cock type. I also tend to not leave them chamber loaded when in and out of vehicles, houses, and around people either, or even in most of my walking around until I expected a shot. Ive never done anything to the Browning firing pin because they worked OK for me. If I had the troubles you are, Id either replace the firing pin with an older type, altered as required to fit, or disable the dog in the rear part of the firing pin, or reduce its spring so it functions (fires) with less effort. Reducing the front firing pin spring strength may also help. Theres something obviously wrong with yours, Ive not heard of any others not functioning in that manner. If it required basically disabling it to allow the gun to fire reliably, thats probably what Id end up doing if it was required to work reliably. Id likely go by degrees to see if it would work just reducing the protrusion of the dog leg (maybe deburring all its edges), the springs, etc until it worked and had a decent primer imprint.

Let us know how its going. Wish I were around to help you tinker with it, its a curious problem.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Ok...think it is time to put it back together.

Took off a bunch of burrs (surprised that there were as many and will comment later on that), used polishing cloth on all the parts. Did the best I could with a wood dowel and polishing cloth to smooth the firing pin bore in the bolt.

The results...assembled pin:
Image

and...with the inertia slide depressed, easy now instead of having to use something to press against it, note that the safety stop(arrow) is flush with the barrel of the firing pin assembly.
Image

Takes just a quarter turn of the pin assembly to insert into the bolt and then another quarter to lock it while depressing the inertia slide with a FINGER...not a vice.

Now to reassemble the entire rifle...might take some time...the machining marks are horrendous, terrible mill witness marks (you can see them on the slides of the bolt in the picture).

Rainy day here, so if I get done will just primer up a couple of empty casings and see if they fire.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

Keep in mind you don't need to remove all machine marks to improve the action smoothness, just knock the high parts off will improve it noticeably and not open tolerances enough to worry about, though it probably wouldn't hurt anything on the sides of the bolt anyway. I use my small ceramic triangle stone/file to do basic clean up work on the bolt and inside the frame, it helps quite a lot without huge effort or time. I also knock off sharp edges, like the front of the receiver by the barrel, and the edges of the bolt and its raceways in the frame.

From your description, Id guess you have it under control. If it was that hard to get it together or apart before cleaning it up, its probably going to work now.
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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin SUCCESS!

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Success!

The red arrow is the last round I attempted to fire prior, after two trips to two different gun smiths plus a shipment to Browning themselves. Cost was in the hundreds for NO RESULTS.

The green arrows after my attempt at first disassembly, then personal diagnosis, and the monumental job of reassembly...believe I have learned a few tricks on assembling an 1886 Browning (primarily bolt installation and main spring reinstallation)

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Re: Argh! Browning 1886 Firing Pin

Post by Malamute »

Excellent! Glad you got it fixed!

When you described how hard it was to move the firing pin before you filed and polished it down, it sounded like you were on to the answer.

I would be asking for a refund from the gunsmiths that charged you to not fix it.
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