Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

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handirifle
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Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

So I have my 375 Big bore, top eject, that I cannot "legally" use for hunting here in Kalifornia, since affordable unlead 375 caliber options do not exist. I could make up bullets that I experimented with for over a year, but I could not get one of them to expand, and that experiment got expensive, even though there was outside help.

So a couple years back I bought a 307 barrel for said rifle (actually it is for side eject, mine is top), knowing there was one non lead levergun bullet in .308 dia I could use. I have never got to the point of swapping the barrels. One reason is I do not want to scope it, since I like the Williams peep i have on it. I did build a side mount scout type of mount, but was less than impressed with it in use.

So back to the Williams and the barrel/bullet issue. Then I was looking Jes' site over and saw the 338 option. Here's where it gets kinky. I thought, I could use the 307 brass I bought, and have the 307 barrel reamed to 338, and basically have a Winchester Big Bore 338. It would have the performance of the 338 Fed/338ME, and I could use bullets like the 160gr, 185gr and possibly the 210gr TTSX's loading one in chamber and one in magazine. I have yet to need a second shot on deer, and seriously doubt any deer would be around long enough for shot number 3.

Looking at just the 185gr TTSX (yes I do think I could load it to fit and function) if I got 2700fps (should be easily achievable) that would easily make it a 300yd elk gun, much less deer. With a 200yd zero, that would put it 2.25" high at 100yds, and only 8.75" low at 300, retaining over 1900ftlbs of energy at 300yds, and over 2150fps. The TTSX's will open reliably at 1900 and above.

The 160gr TTSX's ballistics are pretty similar, but retaining right at 1500ftlbs at 300yds, instead of 1900, and 2100fps.

What I do not know is if JES would do the whole thing. It would entail boring the new barrel, and cutting the notch in it for the top eject extractor, and mounting my front sight after installing.

I know some will say leave it alone, but I want to hunt with it and here in fairy land it isn't legal. I seriously doubt I would take a shot over 150 with the peep sight, but who knows. It would be nice to know the cartridge is up to is, if I am.
Last edited by handirifle on Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GunnyMack
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by GunnyMack »

Sure it is do-able but it could cost you more then you think.
The cost of re bore, fitting/ head spacing. Cost of custom dies, not to mention time spent getting everything to work 100% could become prohibitive.
I suggest you look at cost of a new(er) Marlin 338, then do the cost of your smith's work. Bet you be close same.
Now I'm not trying to discourage this project, you would have a 1 of a kind Winchester!
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fordwannabe
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by fordwannabe »

The prices on 375 big bore 94's might make this conversion prohibitive. I do believe you could sell the rifle you have for a reasonable chunk o change and just get what you desire. I also understand the it's mine and I am gonna do what makes me happy.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by BenT »

I like the way you think!

It will be affordable because you should be able to use 338 Federal dies and JES can use a 338 federal head space guage. The bullet will be set deeper because of AOL. So you will loose case capacity for powder. Starting loads for the 338 Federal might be your maximum. I not sure if you will acheive the 2700 FPS. But it will be a longer range gun than the 375. You can use the 200 FTX if you hunt outside a lead free zone and are tube magazine safe. The 338MX is one of my favorite leverguns.

Swapping barrels on a 94 is not a big deal, so you can always but the 375 barrel back on, don't worry about loosing value. The 375 is the most common BB94, they are not that hard to find.

I am saying two thumbs up! I like the whole idea. In fact my 307 has never been that acurate, I can hit deer with it , yes. But the 356 and 338 MX are more accutare , thus more fun to shoot. So keep me posted on how it turns out. I might have to pick up a spare 307 barrel to send to JES. But he will have to remark the barrel. So big decision on what to stamp on the barrel. In the natural of the BB calibers it can't be 338 you will have to go with 337 Win.

Your gun, your life , set it up the way you want.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by Bronco »

Barnes make a 375 TTSX bullet. Could you not take the point off and make that work ??? I think the diameter is the same and with a starting weight of 250 gr. I am guessing you would end up in the 225gr area when the tip was modified for tube magazine. I am no expert but it might work in your existing barrel. I am sure an expert will enter and say if the idea has merit or not. Walla friggen kaliphornia compliant :D
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Grizz
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by Grizz »

OR, how about getting a mini lathe and turning solids out of brass or copper stock?

I know you mentioned expansion, but it is not necessary for a heavy-for-caliber bullet to expand to make lethality certain. AND you would get to keep and use the gun you have, and tweek the noses of the nazis.

Just sayin,
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by GunnyMack »

3/8"= .375, no need to turn them, just shape a nose.
Now years ago Barnes made a solid brass bullet, ATF made them stop production because they were 'armor piercing ' !
Need to find some depleted uranium and make bullets out of that! Commiefornia would welcome LEAD after a condor started glowing!
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

Bronco wrote:Barnes make a 375 TTSX bullet. Could you not take the point off and make that work ??? I think the diameter is the same and with a starting weight of 250 gr. I am guessing you would end up in the 225gr area when the tip was modified for tube magazine. I am no expert but it might work in your existing barrel. I am sure an expert will enter and say if the idea has merit or not. Walla friggen kaliphornia compliant :D
Been there done that, a long time ago.
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=5008

Grizz, believe me if I could I would. Fish and Game (or whatever they call them selves now) requires it be an expanding bullet, regardless of caliber. It has to be non lead as well. If NOT a ready made bullet, it has to be submitted to them for testing to insure non lead compliance. I know of a couple guys that have submitted and been turned down on the expansion issue.

Yes there are 375 cal TSX bullets, but I don't think the 375 will produce enough speed to make them work very far out, even if I used them as I proposed the 2 round style.

fordwannabe
The rifle was inherited from my dad, and it is not going anywhere. For a long time (thus the link to the thread above) I tried to make a suitable 375 bullet, but speed is the end issue. or not enough of it.

For the 338, I would only use the 2 lightest TTSX bullets, the 160 and 185gr. A 185 would be plenty for hogs or even elk if I ever hunted them. Time will tell if I get to seat them out very far, but I believe I will be able to seat them to the top ring, and that would work.

BenT
YAY someone that LIKES my ideas!!!! :) LOL I was wondering how accurate the 307 barrel would be, and that's when I got to thinking about JES's work and how everybody raves about accuracy afterwards. I thought 356, but then, why not buy a barrel? Plus I am back to the speed issue, and the 338 seems a natural, at least to me. :)

I don't want to buy another gun, or sell this one, and I REALLY would like to hunt with it. Thanks to the Kommies in the state government this is what I am stuck with.

Sure I have other rifles to hunt with and I have but I really want to use this one, so I need to figure a REASONABLE way to do it. Dies for the 338 Fed would work fine, I think the 338ME is a little shorter, but not sure on that one.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by Griff »

Or... you could hunt in any number of OTHER western states with real bullets...
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

Looking at the specs for the 338 Fed shows shoulder at 1.55" and 338ME at 1.47" and 307 win at 1.56. So it is a tiny fraction longer than the 338 fed. The ME does show a 25 deg shoulder as opposed to the 20 deg of the other 2 but is not enough to make a difference in capacity. At least not enough to worry about.

As for speeds, using identical pressures, a larger dia bullet of the same weight will always go faster than the smaller diameter bullet. Winchester had published loads for the 150 at 2760, and the 180gr at 2510.

I am sure I can easily surpass the 150gr speed with the 160gr bullet. For one thing, I have learned that the Barnes bullets will usually provide a bit more speed due to less friction. Barnes publishes loads for the 338 fed 160gr TTSX at from 2700-just under 3100 (a little over both actually) and the 185gr at around 2400 start to 2700 (little over) tops. Both loads were comprised of 2 different listed powders. I started at lowest listed speed to highest.

From my reading/research, the 52,000CUP can convert to psi somewhere between 55,000 psi to 62,000. But nothing is definitive. For example MAP list for the 223 is 52K CUP and 55K psi, whereas the 308 win is also 52K cup, but psi is listed at 62K. So almost apples to oranges. SO I would guess I can get somewhere in the middle of 338 fed loads. But it's kind of a wildcat, so it would take some working up loads for sure.

So looking at loads of 2500fps for the 185gr it would still be a 300yd deer/hog/elk load with over 1600ftlbs left, and 1975fps. The 200yd zero would be 2 3/4" high at 100 (not bad) but drop almost 10.5 at 300. Still usable, but a range finder would be a must. With a 6" circle it would have a point blank range about 240yds.

The starting load with AA2230 is over 2800fps and tops at 3089, so I think 2900 is a real possibility with the 160gr and looking at the numbers it would possibly make the better load, at least if longer ranges came to play. With a 2" high zero, it's dead on at 200 and just 8" low at 300, with a 6" circle PBR of 250yds. Energy would be 1700 at 300yds with 2187fps still pushing the bullet.

It sounds more fun to me every time I run the numbers.
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

Griff
That is true, but I just don't get much time for such things. In truth I try to RV with the wife as often as possible. In fact, I passed up our annual salmon fishing trip to Oregon this year, to be able to hunt deer at home. I have missed out the last 2 years, so I want to take a deer at home this fall. Probably won't have this ready in time, but I still like the idea.

I think waht I need to do, is find a way to cram a 160 or 185gr TTSX into one of my 307 brass and see if it will cycle. If not this idea is a no go anyway. SO I guess I need to get some 338 fed dies and a couple TTSX's to test and go from there. If it jams up I will know.

I know, I will write Barnes, and get measurements on those 2 bullets, and load some 308 dia bullets into my 307 brass and see if it cycles. I already have 307 lifters (or whatever the arms to the side of the lifters are called, I forget) on the rifle.

Now, if it did, then a scout scope with a cantelever mount from the barrel, might just make ME a 300yd shooter. Hmmmmmm
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by EdinCT »

Write Barnes and ask them how much would it cost to do a run of 200 gr flat points. It might be cheaper than what you are proposing seeing how they have one worked up for the 30 wcf they should have a good idea how to get it to expand.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by BenT »

I looked at the Barnes 160 gr and you will need to make a dummy load to see how AOL will work. I think you will need to loose the tip to do it. I can send you a few pieces of 307 brass to use. Then if you want to send me a dummy round I can run it through my 356 to see how it functions.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by m.wun »

I was questioning a CA. Warden on Friday at a fishing show I was at. I asked him if he was checking a hunter in the field ,how would he know a GMX hornady bullet from a SST. Both bullets have red tips and if the GMX is seated deep you may not see the canalure clearly. Either he was mostly a fishing warden or he was a desk jockey, he looked miffed. He could not answer my question, he also could not tell me if lighted nocs were legal for hunting. It seems as if when CA. makes these crazy laws the enforcement side can't even interpret the laws to enforce them. I believe it is done on purpose to change the interpretation of the law on how they feel fit. It's hard to fight something when they tweak it to their advantage.
What in the wild world of sports is going on here
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

I spoke to Barnes about making a special run several years ago and was told, no way. They use special presses that, from my understanding, stamp the bullet into its shape in one rapid motion. I was also told these machines cost several thousands of dollars and unless we bought it, they would not do it.

BenT I have a lot of 307 brass I can use, thanks for the offer. I will be able to tell if it will work, even though I won't be able to fully chamber it in the 375 chamber. All I really need to know is if I can load it to cycle from the magazine and lift properly to chamber. If it gets to that point it will work.

m wun
Yea I have pretty much gotten the same response from other wardens, not in person, but online. One thing I was told as far as bullet recognition, if they are in doubt, they are authorized (according to them) to take one bullet from your weapon to have it examined at their office. I assume if it was a lead bullet, then you would be fined.

I really am a law abiding hunter, always have been, but these laws are horrible. One note about this law, is the anti hunters tried for years to have lead bullets banned because of Condors and the fish and game refused, because of lack of evidence. There still wasn't credible evidence, but they took it to the ultra liberal legislators and they passed a law in one week, and of course the liberal gov signed it. So much for representation.

The frustrating part is we love this state, it has so much to do and see and enjoy, but the politicians are destroying it with their laws and taxes.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by m.wun »

I thought they could just take a pair of side cutters and nip off the tip. Instead of banning the bullets why don't they just require you to not leave any remains in the field or bury them so the mental challenged birds can't eat them.
What in the wild world of sports is going on here
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by gundownunder »

I'd just pack up the 375, and anything else I want to keep, and move out of Kalifornia.
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

m.wun wrote:I thought they could just take a pair of side cutters and nip off the tip. Instead of banning the bullets why don't they just require you to not leave any remains in the field or bury them so the mental challenged birds can't eat them.
That is exactly what fish and game was having us do, but the greenies were not happy. So they went to the legislature.

gundowner

It's never that simple. Most people that give that advice would or could never do it them selves. I have never known anyone that has done that, not on a whim. Someday maybe. At 64yrs old I am getting old enough that the prospect of moving again and out of state is not super appealing, at least not quite yet. We have discussed it and it is not completely off the table, but no non lead bullets for the 375 is not something I am willing to uproot our lives over.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by gundownunder »

Yeh, I thought it might be a bit OTT, but thought I'd chuck it in there anyway.
How about cast pewter, or zinc bullits. I also recall seeing somewhere that you could buy a scintered (spelling?) copper bullet, would that be available in 375.
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

There ARE some bullets available, but very pricey. Cutting Edge is one that comes to mind, at $1.84 a bullet, it would cost a lot just to work up a load that MIGHT be accurate. Not sure how brass would do accuracy wise. These are machined bullets
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/375-235g ... nge-raptor

A box or two would still be cheaper than my idea, but I would still have a shorter range rifle, and be stuck relying on very expensive bullets, even for reloading. Not to mention very low BC's.

I just remembered I have some 130 and 168gr, .308, TTSX's out in my shop. I sent an email off to Barnes and once I hear from them on length, I can load some dummy rounds with those bullets to test length.

Kinda leery of doing this part, because the last time I tried something similar, it took a lot of doing to get the darn thing out of the rifle.

If the F&G folks wouldn't care, I would be happy with TSX bullets with the nose cut off and basically used as a solid. No way will the 375 Win develop enough speed to open those up.

I even talked to Corbin of Corbin Bullets and dies, about making some dies to make my own. Seemed pretty cost prohibitive at the time, but I might have to revisit those costs in my old emails. Yes I saved those because I don't give up on ideas real easy.
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handirifle
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by handirifle »

Well I guess i was wrong. Apparently I did delete them. cr&p.
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Re: Another nutty idea of mine......maybe

Post by stretch »

One thing I was told as far as bullet recognition, if they are in doubt, they are authorized (according to them) to take one bullet from your weapon to have it examined at their office.
Yer golden.

Make your bullets and shoot 'em. There's no way they can determine whether or
not the bullet will expand with one sample. They'll likely destroy it seeing if there's
any lead in it. Once they modify it (shave it, sand it, grind it, UNload it from the
case), then it's modified and not a valid for an expansion test. And if they come
by asking for more, then - "Gee, I shot all up all of the rest."

My experience is that most wardens are not ballisticians. If they ask, they're
not lead. If you shoot a game animal and it doesn't expand, "Gee, that one
musta been defective."

Don't ask questions, and don't volunteer any more info than you have to.

Of course, this is just my own misguided opinion, so feel free to ignore me. :D

-Stretch
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