help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

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jringo8769
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help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well hello everyone i am John...i am on quite a few forums that deal with firearms and vintage watches...anything that is mechanical i love...well i got this one to work on as a favor to a relative and might wind up with this myself...but here is what my problem is...My sister and Brother in law recently bought this from a auction we were at...this was a unexpected buy by my brother in law....we all knew it was early model as we looked at the serial number casually but we were focused on a few others and planned on bidding on them instead...anyway he was able to buy it and only after looking much more closely at it...we found its many faults...i think it will be quite fixable after some good investigation and research to what is missing and i plan on replacing only the wrong parts with used ones that match the gun as it should be....from our research with serial number 53328 we came up with the early 1896 serial number date....i believe this is a rifle as it has the correct forend and stock which match my 1925 94 sporting rifle in 32 win...how do i determine if this is a small caliber receiver over the large caliber receiver?....i am told that i need to measure the opening which i did from my 92 and the opening is smaller by 1/4" overall length...also from my research there is only 2 small calibers available back in 1896 with the 25-35 and the 32-40...am i also correct?....i will gladly post some pics if needed as well...just not sure how to do this on this site...any help will so be appreciated...i am trying to make a bad situation into something good..God Bless and Merry Christmas...John
Last edited by jringo8769 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jdad »

Did you try looking at the caliber stamp on top of the barrel just in front of the receiver. :wink:

An 1894 receiver is an 1894 receiver. They were designed for rifle calibers not pistol calibers. The 1892 was designed for pistol calibers.

BTW 25-35 and 32-40 are rifle calibers. :wink: They're based on the 30-30 cartridge.

Oh...welcome to the forum. :D
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by geobru »

I am assuming that your BIL bought a receiver only?

You could pay the money and get a Cody letter for that serial number to find out what the original configuration was.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well hello everyone..well this is a complete working rifle he was told...everything is sold as is...no warranty ...well this has a 1950 30-30 carbine barrel screwed onto it and the stocks are rifle not carbine stocks and look original......that is why i asked about the receiver differences...i know their is a small and large caliber receivers....and i do agree with the idea of getting the cody letter too...i just do not want them to get too invested in this if they are going to lose money trying to fix it...
well from what i can find out online and my research so far...this was a 1896 model 94 rifle with a octagon barrel ..to what caliber it was is the mystery ....someone has changed the complete breech bolt along with the barrel which leads to think it also was a smaller caliber too...they cut down a older welded seam mag tube to work with the carbine too...it really is a mess...and the only reason i am even considering this for myself is the age...being a 1896 and i love the rifle versions myself...
God Bless and thank u all so far..really appreciate it...John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

Image John, and Welcome to THE Forum. The mdl 94 Winchester receiver was unchanged from its introduction in 1894 in .38-55 & .32-40 until 1963, all chamberings using the same receiver. And then it had minor changes to a couple of internal parts, and the receiver was made from slightly different metal... not forged steel, but a scintered steel process not too dissimilar from Ruger's. The second change in the receiver was in 1978 when the mdl 94BB was introduced with its "fat" rear lug area for the .375 Winchester cartridge. I'm not sure if this was the same scintered steel or forged, as I've never owned one. Then, in 1983 when USRA took over production and it went back to forged steel and a cut away in the right receiver rail and it became the 94AE model.

The .30-30 was introduced in 1895 when the nickel-steel barrels were perfected. Then the .25-35 and .32 Winchester Special were added to the line-up later. These cartridges all use the same rim diameter and thickness and are derivatives of the .38-55 Ballard. Mag tubes, followers and such are all the same. As they are all nearly the same length, guides rails can be interchanged, although they were initially a little different in the .32-40 & 25-35 as they have more body taper than the other 3. So that would be the only concern if your receiver has guide rails for the .32-40, but... they're not terribly hard to modify. And who knows, they might just work anyway.

Where ever you got the information that there were different size receivers was incorrect.

Edited add... we like pictures... hint, hint!! :D :D
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well thank u for the great info...well i got this from two gunsmith who i thought were knowledgeable...really appreciate all the help so far...God Bless,John
hey i do have a few question...is the only way to find out how this came from the factory a cody letter?.....
to the barrel i will need...what should it say with the stampings?...i see some are nickel steel like my 1925...i have been able to find a 1906 barrel but was not sure if it was correct for the later 1896..what i really need to know is what caliber is was originally too...and please let me know how to add pics...i usually do imgur but i am very unfamiliar with this forum and not sure how to add pics...
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Last edited by jringo8769 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

The Cody letter should be able to provide you the chambering, bbl length, rifle, carbine, even where it was shipped to for that vintage gun. IIRC, this is only available up to serial number 383,xxx. If it came from the factory in .30WCF (.30-30), it would have a nickel-steel barrel. And, it was around that 1906 period that all chamberings came with N-S barrels. If you look at the bottom of the barrel it should have a date and "N-S" if it is nickel-steel. IIRC, you could order N-S barrels for other calibers besides the .30-30.

There are a number of different type fonts and layouts Winchester used over the course of their production, some experts (I ain't one), can give a pretty good approximation of a barrel's vintage examining the roll stamp.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well just so i am clear....the nickel steel barrel would not be correct for the 1896 serial number range?....
i added some imgur pics too...they would allow any links to show pics...so i had to do this ...how do i make it so pics will show without link?
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

jringo8769 wrote:well just so i am clear....the nickel steel barrel would not be correct for the 1896 serial number range?....
i added some imgur pics too...they would allow any links to show pics...so i had to do this ...how do i make it so pics will show without link?
Image
A nickel steel barrel would be correct for a .30-30 rifle or carbine in 1896.

There's a size limiter on the forum... apparently this one is correct. Up in the "One Sticky" post there's a tutorial on posting pictures
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jdad »

3 things I noticed from your photos.

1. Huge gaps between the barrel and forearm. It likely had an octagon barrel originally.

2. Is there a circle "P" on the top of barrel just in front of the receiver? or is it just a "WP" proof mark?

3. It's a good looking shooter and you would probably pay as much for (if you could find one) a period correct barrel(installed & head spaced)as you did for the rifle.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

jdad wrote:3 things I noticed from your photos.

1. Huge gaps between the barrel and forearm. It likely had an octagon barrel originally.

2. Is there a circle "P" on the top of barrel just in front of the receiver? or is it just a "WP" proof mark?

3. It's a good looking shooter and you would probably pay as much for (if you could find one) a period correct barrel(installed & head spaced)as you did for the rifle.
It may have had a rifle round barrel. That is definitely a carbine barrel on it now. The round rifle barrels are larger diameter at the rear.

The confusion about the receiver sizes may be because of the pre and post war receivers. The pre WWII receivers used the same wood as the big receiver 92's (38 and 44 WCF)
The post war 94 receivers were shaped slightly different at the upper tang up by the hammer and the bottom of the receiver was somewhat flattened.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well just a little more update....well after last post...i just had to lay it next to my 1925 rifle and really take a closer look at it...and u all know how that goes.....You are correct forend is for a round barrel not a octagon like i thought....i took off both stocks of each gun...to see if they match...it seems like this one has had some slight stock damage on the edge of the butt...so the plate is proud now...plate fits my 25 perfectly...so i know it is the wood....i have never seen a dovetail cut into the underside of a carbine barrel either...i figure it was done when the 1950 barrel was added....i wonder also is the wood is original to this gun...i think the cody letter is a must...there is just so many variables with out....well i wonder what the turn around time for a letter might be?...God Bless and thank all of u so much...John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

jringo8769 wrote:well just a little more update....well after last post...i just had to lay it next to my 1925 rifle and really take a closer look at it...and u all know how that goes.....You are correct forend is for a round barrel not a octagon like i thought....i took off both stocks of each gun...to see if they match...it seems like this one has had some slight stock damage on the edge of the butt...so the plate is proud now...plate fits my 25 perfectly...so i know it is the wood.
That can also happen as the wood dries and shrinks
...i have never seen a dovetail cut into the underside of a carbine barrel either...i figure it was done when the 1950 barrel was added.
I think you are right. I noticed in your 5th picture how the forewood runs up hill in relationship to the bore center line. I bet they used the original rifle forend cap tenon in a new dovetail cut in the smaller diameter carbine barrel.
...i wonder also is the wood is original to this gun...i think the cody letter is a must...there is just so many variables with out....well i wonder what the turn around time for a letter might be?...God Bless and thank all of u so much...John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well i finally figured out how to post the pics...sorry for taking so long....God Bless,John

hey does this look like the tang was welded?....it does look like to me


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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Sixgun »

Most probable.......look the same underneath? Even so, it is what it is....I've seen lots of beat up guns shoot better than like new specimens. "........six
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

Sixgun wrote:Most probable.......look the same underneath? Even so, it is what it is....I've seen lots of beat up guns shoot better than like new specimens. "........six
+1.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well my worry was safety....so that is not a problem?...i can weld but never welded on a gun before...i would think tig welding would be the best...thank u for all the help...God Bless,John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well hello again....here is another update...well thanks to a good friend....i now know how this rifle was originally produced...i am told courtesy of the Cody Museum Records...this one is a 32-40 octagon barreled rifle....well my question to u all is this....i know the 32-40 caliber is not very common..do any of the other parts i will need interchange?...like the breech bolt or any internals like the lifter?...i know i should try and find a original barrel too versus a new one...my original idea was to make a nice shooter carbine out of it in 32 win to match my 32 rifle i have....any advice would so be appreciated...God Bless,John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

For all intents and purposes, everything's the same. The .30--30 is from the .38-55 Ballard family of cartridges, including the .32-40. They all use the same rim and cartridge base diameters, differing only in body shape, the .38-55 being almost a straight wall, the .32-40 having a tapered case, and lastly the .30-30 having that wonderful bottleneck. The .25-35 & .32 Win. Spl. being introduced later.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Pete44ru »

jringo8769 wrote:
i now know how this rifle was originally produced...i am told courtesy of the Cody Museum Records...this one is a 32-40 octagon barreled rifle....

well my question to u all is this....i know the 32-40 caliber is not very common.

my original idea was to make a nice shooter carbine out of it in 32 win to match my 32 rifle i have....

any advice would so be appreciated...

John, the .38-55 was the only chambering offered for the first few year (1894) the Model 1894 was first introduced, followed shortly by the .32-40, and then the .25-35 & .30WCF (.30-30), until the introduction of the .32 Special in 1901 - so the .32-40 was very popular (besides in Winchesters) those early years, as it was widely used for target shooting.

The Winchester pictured is a Rifle (model), and not a Carbine (model), so I'd be loath to convert it to a Carbine (model)

Since it no longer has it's original barrel, even if you can find a correct (barrel address) .32-40 barrel, the gun's overall condition (with regards to wood & metal finish) is so low that if it were mine, I would have to decide whether it would appear to as a well-used rifle, or a restored (finish-wise) rifle - then decide on one of the original 4 chamberings (.25-35, .30-30, .32-0 or .38-55).

If you want a .32, I would suggest keeping it in .32-40, and handload for it.

If you find an old/take-off .32-40 barrel, it's finish might bear a closer resemblance to the metal finish of the receiver (etc) than the finish of a new/replacement .32-0 barrel would - although, a new barrel's finish can be distressed to match the current receiver finish.

There's plenty of thinking hard on what you want exactly, then deciding which road to take with it's restoration to a shooter.

FWIW, if it were mine, I'd opt for making it look like a well-used/shooter in .38-55 - but YMMV, of course.


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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

My reprint of the 1894 catalog shows both .32-40 & .38-55 as being available that year.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well my thinking is not to restore this one...keep the same look it already has find the parts that compliment what i already have ....my head tells me to return it back to a rifle and find that elusive 32-40 octagon barrel but my heart tells me this would be perfect to have some fun and make it a nice old shooter with carbine stocks that are correct for the age and a nice correct to the era carbine barrel to match the mag tube it has....am i crazy to think this?...i love the idea of making this into something?...i know there is very little value how it is ....sadly that was ruined long before i got this...i think i could sell off the parts i do not need and find the barrel and stocks and assorted parts and put this back together with some work...but i totally agree that trying to a sows ear and make it into a silk purse is just a folly and money wasted....i would much rather see it useable and shooting again that just part it out...now i was offered a 26" 30 wcf octagon rifle barrel ..and that also would be a great idea too...i am just so torn what to do....i load for 30-30 and 32 win special and it would not be a killing thing to go to another caliber too...thank u all for the help...God Bless,John
really appreciate it
hey has anyone converted one to a carbine from a rifle?....
has anyone done anything like this?....
the work i know i can do so that is not a issue...i really look forward to it ....
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Malamute »

Carbines are pretty plain vanilla compared to rifles, rifles have a bit more class and panache. It would be simplest to get a true rifle barrel and magazine ring (the front band you have is for a carbine). If you have a line on a fair condition 30-30 rifle barrel, it may fit your current fore end and cap. The exact original caliber isn't that much of an issue unless you just really want a particular caliber, or to make it truly original as in restoring it. It may be a bit beyond being practical to do a true restoration, it would be a labor of love or passion rather than very practical or financially worthwhile. Its up to you, whatever direction you want to go. Just a few thoughts.
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well i totally agree that i love a rifle over the carbine which most will think i am crazy....but growing up around these and one of my Dad's best friends growing up having a huge collection of model 94's with every year of production and every caliber i have seen quite a few over the years but the rifles were much fewer and being a very tall man as well...the carbine always felt very small for me personally....my dad always had the carbines thru out my life and my family and i got him one this Christmas identical to the first one he ever got back in 1950 even down the receiver sight ....i agree that the one i am working on is not a collectable and probably not very desirable as so many things are now these days...it is just a good old honest winchester that has been sadly not treated very well....i have been searching and i have found just in pics a shorter barreled rifle with the 20 to 22" octagon barrel....it looks a lot like a carbine in length but with the octagon barrel and rifle stock and forend looked quite nice....i agree that putting it back to original configuration would be a great idea and i would love to do that...and would be a real passion to do...but i think the costs would not be smart to do...i have found lots of barrels from the correct era and even found a few in good condition and at good prices...i think before i do anything i better see if i can good and look at my Dad's friends collection again and see if he has any of the ones and see how i like them...bringing this one back to iuseable status would be a great thing and i want to be period correct no matter the configuration i go...God Bless,John
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Griff »

I recently bought a '66 Centennial commemorative Winchester 94... It wasn't fully functional as it wouldn't feed cartridges from the mag to the chamber... the nose of the bullet hit the bottom of the barrel every time. Run it fast, run it slow. I knew what was wrong with it, tried to explain the ease of the fix to the owner, but he just wasn't having it... So I bought it. Actually expecting a 26" version. Never even asked the owner which one it was. Received a sweet 20" octagon barreled rifle. Replaced the carrier and it operates perfect. (The '64 - '71 stamped part had been tweaked, bent in in just the wrong places. Replaced it with a new machined replacement)! I took it out and shot it - SWEET! So now I've removed the factory sights, and replaced those with Lyman's Tang peep and globe front. I thought I'd done the math right, but it shoots about 12" high at 50 yards, I got the .404" height one, I shoulda got the .464"...

Anyway, it balances nice, the extra weight of that octagon barrel holds so much steadier than a carbine. This is the first short barreled "rifle" in a rifle caliber that I've had. Have both a '92 & '73 in 45Colt with 20" barrels but, they have a different feel to them. The '92 has a very stout octagon bbl, with the '73 has a ½-rnd/oct bbl. I have a .30-30 with the 26" ½-rnd/oct, in a mdl 94, and it's a sweet balance also. It's probably my favorite... ah heck... who'm I kidding... each of them is my favorite rifle as soon as I pick one of 'em up!

As purchased:
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well that is a beauty....really like it....and i agree i like the heavy barrel myself too...thank u for sharing it and i love to find stuff others have given up on too
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Location: Jamestown NY

Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well update....sorry it has been a while...took me a while to find the right parts for this one and wound up with another early 1894 project one too...funny how they seem to multiply ....i was able to get a nice 26" 30 wcf octagon barrel and some very nice internals as i was not sure how good the ones i had were...still i need a few more bits but see what u think so far...it is just mocked up...but looks much better i think....and here is the other one too....it is a 1897 1894 src 30 wcf....this one i have all the internals and i am working on a set of original stocks for it too....

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and here is the newest addition
a 1897 SRC in 30 wcf....it even has a front sight made out a old penny too...

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"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
The Republic will cease to exist when the government takes away from those who are willing to work to give to those who are not.
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Aussie Chris
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Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by Aussie Chris »

You also have a flat band there, the front barrel band. I have a beautiful flat band carbine in 30wcf from 1946. The flat band carbines command a small premium and we're made from the mid 40s to early 50s I believe. Good luck with the project!

Chris
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...
jringo8769
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Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:24 am
Location: Jamestown NY

Re: help with receiver identification 1896 model 94 rifle

Post by jringo8769 »

well thank u so much for the kind words....u are correct...that is just a extra part flat band i had ...i know it is not correct and i will not be using it...i am still on the look out for the correct one...very good eye there......i was just able to get the correct original SRC stocks and some more parts to try and finish them both...i never thought it would be so much fun bringing back two pre 1900 firearms...i can not wait till i can actually put them together for good...God Bless,John

hey i almost forgot to ask...what front barrel band should it have?....what do i need to look for?....any help will so be appreciated...
"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
The Republic will cease to exist when the government takes away from those who are willing to work to give to those who are not.
Unknown....
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