Tire chains

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gcs
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Tire chains

Post by gcs »

Yep, nothing to do with guns, except that to use one, you gotta get to where you can. :mrgreen:
Anyway... I keep a set (two) of chains in the truck when I visit my camp where the weather can change fast, ie, 60 degrees on saturday night, 10 inches snow on sunday morning, and still snowing, hard.
I didn't need to chain up as we departed early, but the question is... would you chain the rears, as is normal, or the fronts, as it's a 4 wheel drive, and will "pull" rather then "push.
Not sure it would matter, though a friend of mine that guides in Montana chains all 4 wheels for deep snow.

Figured someone here has been in a similar predicament , so any opinions welcomed. Thanks and Merry Christmas
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Re: Tire chains

Post by mav »

I haven't run chains around home in years, although I still have a set.

When the oldest boy lived in Colorado we chained all four tires of his Cherokee to drive through the mud and snow in elk second season rifle.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by geobru »

My dad had a 54 Willies pickup and had 4 chains for it. If we were in a hurry, we'd chain up the front two wheels. For the same reasons that front wheel cars are better in snow than rear wheel drive vehicles..... There is more weight in the front which equates to better traction. When he put chains on all four, that rig would about go anywhere!
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Blaine »

(knock on wood) I've never run into anything where 4WD Low Range wouldn't get me thru it..... I know, I know....If I'm not careful it's a matter of time. :lol:

Side story: Going up the mountain to Snoqualmi Pass on the I-90 it was whiteout conditions. I was driving a Subaru Forester, and was having zero problems where 4WDs were barely making it. Unless you high centered that thing, you couldn't get it stuck.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Griff »

All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front. Ergo, if you're only going to chain ½ the vehicle, chain the front to keep steering control. Remember, in almost all stock 4WD vehicles, there are really only 2 tires that provide motive power to the ground. I've only owned one 4WD that had true 4WD, a highly modified Blazer with a Detroit locker in the rear and a limited slip diff up front. I always chained up all 4. And only when it was ICE. Snow isn't that hard to drive in with good SNOW tires... if you're running a combination type tire, you might need chains when off road and snow is deeper than the axles. Just remember, chains do help with traction on ice by cutting into it... and their effectiveness diminishes the faster you go... But, worse yet, are absolutely useless for stopping! SLOW the (insert favored Navy expletive here) down!
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Re: Tire chains

Post by GunnyMack »

The gumbo mud in Colorado can be like Vaseline and axle grease with a bit of sand thrown in, chains are a must! I found out the hard way, coon hunting landlords corn fields on night, took my eye off the road for a split second, next thing I knew I was crawling out the passenger side window after sliding into irrigation ditch. That was flat level ground! Slippery don't even describe that mud!
I run chains on the rear on my quad when plowing.
Off road chain all four, on paved roads just the rear.
The 4WD selector just allows you to get deeper in trouble!
Always good to have chains, tow strap/ chain in truck. Also keep a good come-a-long handy!
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Re: Tire chains

Post by ollogger »

Its not that often I need them any more but when I did I always chained the front
as long as you ease into a drift & spin out you could always back up & try it again, if you
have to shovel a bit its a lot easier than shoveling out a buried pickup, yes I have chained all 4
to get out of a place but any more I don't get myself into them situations


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Re: Tire chains

Post by Blaine »

Griff wrote:All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front. Ergo, if you're only going to chain ½ the vehicle, chain the front to keep steering control. Remember, in almost all stock 4WD vehicles, there are really only 2 tires that provide motive power to the ground. I've only owned one 4WD that had true 4WD, a highly modified Blazer with a Detroit locker in the rear and a limited slip diff up front. I always chained up all 4. And only when it was ICE. Snow isn't that hard to drive in with good SNOW tires... if you're running a combination type tire, you might need chains when off road and snow is deeper than the axles. Just remember, chains do help with traction on ice by cutting into it... and their effectiveness diminishes the faster you go... But, worse yet, are absolutely useless for stopping! SLOW the (insert favored Navy expletive here) down!
I have three 4WD settings on the Ram 1500.....4WD Auto, and the front only gets power when the backs slip, 4WD Locked (I wonder if they really do) and 4WD Low, and I don't know if Low locks up or not.....
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Griff »

BlaineG wrote:
Griff wrote:All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front. Ergo, if you're only going to chain ½ the vehicle, chain the front to keep steering control. Remember, in almost all stock 4WD vehicles, there are really only 2 tires that provide motive power to the ground. I've only owned one 4WD that had true 4WD, a highly modified Blazer with a Detroit locker in the rear and a limited slip diff up front. I always chained up all 4. And only when it was ICE. Snow isn't that hard to drive in with good SNOW tires... if you're running a combination type tire, you might need chains when off road and snow is deeper than the axles. Just remember, chains do help with traction on ice by cutting into it... and their effectiveness diminishes the faster you go... But, worse yet, are absolutely useless for stopping! SLOW the (insert favored Navy expletive here) down!
I have three 4WD settings on the Ram 1500.....4WD Auto, and the front only gets power when the backs slip, 4WD Locked (I wonder if they really do) and 4WD Low, and I don't know if Low locks up or not.....
Read the owner's manual. (I know, it'll put your "man-card" into question), but... do it anyway... look at the vehicle's "build sheet", if it don't list "locking" or "limited-slip differential axle", your front and rear axle only drive with one tire each. Newer 4WD vehicles, have a differential in the transfer case, provide power to the other end... or Lock the transfer case to proved equal power to front and rear axles...
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Re: Tire chains

Post by jeepnik »

Actually in my state, at least the southern part, if chains are required you need all four. Mind you, you can be driving a 4wd with 4.88's, ARB lockers front and rear and mud and snow tires and the idiot LEO's insist you chain up for two inches of snow.

I once got to a major pass (Cajon for those that know the area) on the desert side. CHP had closed the interstate. I guess the vast majority of fools driving, everything from sub compacts to semi's, weren't deemed capable of negotiating the road with about 4 or 5 inches of snow on it.

So, me being me, I took the jeep trail over the summit (it goes a few hundred feed higher than the highway) then rejoined the road about mid way to where it was closed on the other side. No chains needed, just a nice slow forward speed. No braking or backing needed. The CHP were unhappy when they saw me coming down to the highway. But what could they do, I hadn't ran through any of their blockades, I was just out 4 wheeling. :mrgreen:
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Re: Tire chains

Post by FWiedner »

When I put the chains on I always put on all 4.

Just my way.

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Re: Tire chains

Post by GunnyMack »

My '08 Jeep Rubicon has factory lockers, have only needs to lock all 4 one time. We were logging and I offered to carry the saws & gas up into the woods. I went behind our skidder so if I got stuck I could get pulled out.
Had about a foot of snow with a layer of ice under it. Only had to get pulled through 1 drift. It was about 3' deep.
If width of skidder was same as the Jeep I would have made it!
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Malamute »

Ive only chained up the front with 4wd. I used to run noisy snow and mud tires until I bought a truck with good quality all seasons, so was going to run them out before getting "good" tires. The all seasons did everything I needed and then some. Having a lot of weight in the truck all the time also helps. I had a utility shell that weighed 620 lbs empty, and it was always full of tools, guns, ammo, camp gear and recovery gear (and chains). Ive never felt the urge for mud and snow tires again regardless of conditions with a decent 4wd vehicle.

Ive chained up in the Midwest when there was over a foot of snow and the town was basically stopped in its tracks other than the plows. I chained up the front of my Nissan 4wd and was able to cut through the snow quite well, though it wasn't heavy wet snow or crusted snow, those will hang up your diffs and frame and you aren't going anywhere with your tires suspended off the ground and extreme rolling resistance.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by cnjarvis »

Something to consider: check to see if there's enough room to install them up front in the first place. Second and third generation Toyota Tacomas cannot accept chains on the front wheels due to insufficient clearance between the tire and the upper control arm. Your manual should tell you.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Shrapnel »

Click on the picture it is a video. Dig as much as you need, then chain up the front...


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Re: Tire chains

Post by gcs »

Thanks guys for the responses, kinda validated what I thought.
I haven't needed to chain up, yet, The only time I sorta worry is the long uphill dirt road getting out, if I get surprised by a 20+" snow, and it's the ice underneath that makes it funner, :?
Guess I need to pay more attention to the weather report, though it's usually wrong,lol
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Re: Tire chains

Post by sore shoulder »

The common wisdom is to chain the front if you only have 2. I have done this many times, and it works well if you are in icy conditions and need control. It does not work well if your truck is heavy and the snow is deep because it will dig in instead of floating a bit. I have never needed more than a set of 2 but wouldn't criticize anyone who wanted to use 4. The conditions have been many yearly firewood and hunting trips over a couple decades from my house at 9000ft in the Colorado Rockies in various vehicles ranging from a CJ to an F350 crew cab Powerstroke while towing a gooseneck with equipment. My trucks with lockers and manual xfer case spend nearly half a year locked in 4H. I've probably spent more time in deep snow in wildrness areas in a year than most people will their entire lives.

A few pics to confirm my creds. :lol:

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Re: Tire chains

Post by sore shoulder »

Griff wrote:All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front.
Ive literally never heard of that outside of an ice racing application, and in fact it would tear up your transfer case for a hiway vehicle.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Griff »

sore shoulder wrote:
Griff wrote:All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front.
Ive literally never heard of that outside of an ice racing application, and in fact it would tear up your transfer case for a hiway vehicle.
Check your diff tags. Of the 5 4WD Chevys I've owned, all 5 were like that from the factory. Last 2 rides have had 3.73 rear, & 3.72 front, the 1st had a Dana 60 while the other is the 1st independent front suspension I've had, all the others had Dana 44s in front. I ordered this one with the limited slip front & rear.

If there isn't that .01 difference in the ratios, the whole thing'll bind up at the limit stops. Ice racers run a much larger difference between the two set.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by jeepnik »

CJ's have same front & rear.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by sore shoulder »

Griff wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
Griff wrote:All four with 4WD, (unless you only have 2); then immediately set about acquiring another set. The front differential is usually gear one numerical ratio higher than the rear to aid steering when 4WD is engaged. i.e.: 4.11 in the rear to 4.10 in the front.
Ive literally never heard of that outside of an ice racing application, and in fact it would tear up your transfer case for a hiway vehicle.
Check your diff tags. Of the 5 4WD Chevys I've owned, all 5 were like that from the factory. Last 2 rides have had 3.73 rear, & 3.72 front, the 1st had a Dana 60 while the other is the 1st independent front suspension I've had, all the others had Dana 44s in front. I ordered this one with the limited slip front & rear.

If there isn't that .01 difference in the ratios, the whole thing'll bind up at the limit stops. Ice racers run a much larger difference between the two set.
I've replaced many front and rear diffs in chevy's, jeeps and Fords including doing the R&P's myself and they were always exactly the same.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by jcw »

I carry two sets of cable chains plus one set of ice lug chains when things get real snotty for the Cherokee. All four corners get chained.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Twodot »

with my F250 and the F150 before it and the Land Cruiser before that I put the chains on the back and run in 2 wheel drive.
You may be amazed how far you can go (and how stuck you can get) with two wheel drive and chains.

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Re: Tire chains

Post by .45colt »

I have had a life long affair with tire chains , as a Kid with 40" snow drifts across the drive our John Deer Model 40 wouldn't touch them......but by magic just put on the chains and it's another day at the office. I have them on My Kubota 4wd and it will go anywhere. even on My Cub Cadet zero turn that kept getting stuck in mud with the turf tires , it is suddenly a fire breathing animal that can lug some pretty big loads. :lol: :lol: .
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Malamute »

The common wisdom is to chain the front if you only have 2. I have done this many times, and it works well if you are in icy conditions and need control. It does not work well if your truck is heavy and the snow is deep because it will dig in instead of floating a bit.
Digging in to traction is what Ive always tried to do. I haven't had good success trying to stay up on the snow, but it may be different where you've been.

I haven't checked scads, but both Chevy and Fords that Ive checked and changed were one point off in diffs between front and rear. And yes, it loads up and pops loose when wound up on dry pavement. Its generally recommended not to have 4wd engaged on dry pavement, I always figured this was the reason, besides going around corners and winding it up between front and rear diffs.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by HawkCreek »

BlaineG wrote:(knock on wood) I've never run into anything where 4WD Low Range wouldn't get me thru it..... I know, I know....If I'm not careful it's a matter of time. :lol:

Side story: Going up the mountain to Snoqualmi Pass on the I-90 it was whiteout conditions. I was driving a Subaru Forester, and was having zero problems where 4WDs were barely making it. Unless you high centered that thing, you couldn't get it stuck.
I went over Snoqualmi one time (probably 2006 or 2007) and it was storming so bad up there only I had to drop my Tacoma into 4L, myself and two other trucks (I assume they were in Low also) toddled over the pass at about 35mph, couldn't go any faster or I'd start to slip and the wind was swirling the snow hard enough you couldn't see the lines. I've never seen the side of the road so packed with cars (and trucks), couldn't understand why everyone sat outside by their car in a snowstorm wearing shorts trying to figure out chains. I had some but I didn't need to put them on so I just kept going. Cleared up around Cle Elum and I did the speed limit the rest of the way home.

cnjarvis wrote:Something to consider: check to see if there's enough room to install them up front in the first place. Second and third generation Toyota Tacomas cannot accept chains on the front wheels due to insufficient clearance between the tire and the upper control arm. Your manual should tell you.
I've got a 2005 Tacoma and I was pretty put off when I found this out about my truck. So I ended up with two sets of chains for the rear of my truck :roll:
I think the manual says you can run cable "chains" up front but you still have to check to make sure they clear anything else is a warranty void or something.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by sore shoulder »

Malamute wrote: I haven't checked scads, but both Chevy and Fords that Ive checked and changed were one point off in diffs between front and rear. And yes, it loads up and pops loose when wound up on dry pavement. Its generally recommended not to have 4wd engaged on dry pavement, I always figured this was the reason, besides going around corners and winding it up between front and rear diffs.
Ok. This was bugging me, a lot (I have a huge ego and hate being wrong), so I went to a well known differential retailer that I and friends have bought R&P sets from using their gear charts and I figured out why I haven't run across this.

The short version is there are only a couple ratios that are different front and rear in Ford, Chevy and Jeep, and it depends on the axle models, and my experience for whatever reason has skipped over them. It is mostly a 4:11R/4:10F combo, IF they are different models of axles.

For instance, it appears my F350 had Ford Sterling 10.25" 4:11 rear and Dana 60 4:10 front. I never had to service those beyond fluid as they were bombproof so I never had a reason to look at the tags. However, if it had a 3:73, 4:56 or 4:88 rear the front would also be the same exact ratio, in those axles. 3:55 rear would be 3:54 front. I have replaced or serviced 3:73 and 4:56 in that combo so my experience was they are the same.

My current F250 has the 10.5" Sterling rear and Dana 50 front, both are 3:73 ratio. If it had a 4:11 rear it would have a 4:10 front.

My 69 Jeep J2000 has Dana 44 axles front and rear and those are 4:11 front and rear. They are the same because they are the same model of axle.

I've had CJ's with Dana 44 rear/Dana 30 front axles, with 4:27, 3:73 and 3:55 ratios, those are the same front and rear, which matches my experience replacing several sets. If they had a 4:11 rear it would be a 4:10 front. Again the 4:11/4:10 anomaly.

I have had 1/2 ton Chevy trucks that were 4:11 front and rear (12bolt GM/D44 axles). I had a heavy 3/4 ton with 14 bolt rear/D60 front axles, in 3:73 front and rear that I lifted and installed 4:56 gears front and rear to run the larger tires. If I had used 4:11 rear it would have been 4:10 front.

So, it appears I was wrong and I was right, and that it was simply chance that in all the gear sets I have serviced or changed I did not run across this, or in the case of my F350, notice.

My apologies to Griff and thanks Malamute for the input and making me look.

Link to charts for gear ratios. http://www.differentials.com/differenti ... pplication
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Re: Tire chains

Post by sore shoulder »

Malamute wrote:
Digging in to traction is what Ive always tried to do. I haven't had good success trying to stay up on the snow, but it may be different where you've been.
Digging down in most normal cases works, until you start dragging your truck down past the axles and up to the doors in drifts (this is very common where I live, sometimes people just park at the hiway entrance and snowmobile in, some people cant get out for a week), which is usually when you are chained up. I've done drift busting both ways and when I chain the front it just sucks it right down in to the drift, when I chain the rear the front will float up a little. The front of a Powestroke weighs enough without help pulling it down.
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Re: Tire chains

Post by Malamute »

That makes sense about the different ratios with some and not others. The ones Ive messed with mostly were 4.11 and 3.55, which was what I changed by 83 F250 to. Gained me 1 mpg, from 7 to 8. It would still pass about anything but a gas station. 460 with a 4 speed. The Chevys Ive messed with were changing between different years for my 67, and a project I didn't finish with a 50-something PU on a Blazer chassis. I ended up using the axles on my 67, I think also the motor and trans. There was something else I was messing with dif gears on, but I don't recall what it was.
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Re: Tire chains

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Malamute wrote:That makes sense about the different ratios with some and not others. The ones Ive messed with mostly were 4.11 and 3.55, which was what I changed by 83 F250 to. Gained me 1 mpg, from 7 to 8. It would still pass about anything but a gas station. 460 with a 4 speed. The Chevys Ive messed with were changing between different years for my 67, and a project I didn't finish with a 50-something PU on a Blazer chassis. I ended up using the axles on my 67, I think also the motor and trans. There was something else I was messing with dif gears on, but I don't recall what it was.

If that F250 was a high pinion D44 in the front it may have had 3:54 ratio, that was another exception I ran across. Apparently Ford used those for quite awhile in their lighter duty 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton 4x4's. High pinions are very desirable for off roading due to the clearance, several aftermarket companies make them mostly in D60's for Jeeps.

My last 460/3 speed auto went from 11 mpg down to 9 when they started messing with the fuel. My dad had an EFI/5 speed manual 460, last one Ford made, it got 12 with 3:73's on high grade fuel.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
flatnose
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:24 pm

Re: Tire chains

Post by flatnose »

The reason for the 2 different gear ratios front and rear, is to prevent the rear end from overtaking the front end, which is easily done on ice. It prevents the rear end of the vehicle from stepping out.
Another factor that is not well known is that the rear axle is not straight. If it was, then it would have difficulty tracking straight. There is a certain amount of toe in built into the axle.
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