Caliber conversion question

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handirifle
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Caliber conversion question

Post by handirifle »

OK I'll throw this one out there, I have no idea if it's even remotely possible. I have a Win 94 Centennial rifle in 30-30 that I inherited from my dad. From what I read they have very little value as a collectible and due to the glossy gold finish not much as a hunting gun either, IMHO.

So, my mental gears started turning, and wondering if that 26" octagonal barrel could be set back and re-chambered/bored to something like 357 Mag/Max. Pretty sure Jes could handle that part, but not sure there is enough meat to cover threads.

Also can the lifter etc, be modified to cycle that shorter round? And is there a bolt face for the smaller rim?

I know it's a LOT of changes but was thinking it might at least be usable in silhouette matches or something, that way. A 30-30 is not my idea of a plinker, and it is NOT going to be sold.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by pshort »

IMHO, you're just going to ruin a good gun and put a lot of money into it as well...
Plus, who knows how much trouble it would be to get it cycle, etc...
Just buy the one you need....

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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Merle »

pshort wrote:IMHO, you're just going to ruin a good gun and put a lot of money into it as well...
Plus, who knows how much trouble it would be to get it cycle, etc...
Just buy the one you need....

Paul

I'll second that! :roll:

+1 !!!!!
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GunnyMack
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by GunnyMack »

Setting the barrel back is one thing, but then mag tube has to be shortened as well, no big deal.
Instead, if you insist on this being done, just re barrel it, dollars to doughnuts probably about same cost. You could also refinish the receiver... More money...
Personally I'd buy a 357 rifle, stick yours in the safe and try to use it as a fun gun.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Tycer »

30-30/35
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by JerryB »

Send it to Jes for a 38-55 chambering. They are real nice with a 255 grain cast over some 5744 powder.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Bulldog »

38-55 would be an easy conversion for JES.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Bulldog »

Jerry beat me to it. :D
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Malamute »

So, why isn't a 30-30 good for plinking?

Cast bullets can be loaded to about any level up or down, including duplicating anything a 38-357 can do, and then some. A 115-120 gr cast at about 1200 fps is really pleasant to shoot, and cheap.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Griff »

handirifle wrote:So, my mental gears started turning, and wondering if that 26" octagonal barrel could be set back and re-chambered/bored to something like 357 Max.

Also can the lifter etc, be modified to cycle that shorter round? And is there a bolt face for the smaller rim?

I know it's a LOT of changes but was thinking it might at least be usable in silhouette matches or something, that way. A 30-30 is not my idea of a plinker, and it is NOT going to be sold.
  • yes
    yes
    Why not?
I contemplated this same change some 40 years ago. At the time, the 357 Max was just developing a reputation a "throat eater"... so I abandoned my plans. This has since changed with powders more appropriate to this cartridge. But, ballistically speaking, you don't gain anything over the .30-30, except a .051 enlarged hole. And, at the top of the range, you lose a LOT of downrange capability.

However, Joe, (86er), had one converted for his oldest boy's use. And really likes it a LOT. IIRC, it was a carbine, and provided a handy platform. Do a search, as I think he discussed it here.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by marlinman93 »

Way too much conversion work needed to go to .357 from .30-30. The mag tube is too large, and the lifter needs a ton of work. Then the bolt face, extractor, and ejector all need reworking. No need to set back the barrel, as the chamber can be bored and sleeved prior to reboring, and then chambered in the .357. But that's the easy and cheap part. When you're done it MIGHT function OK.
For what you'd spend you can get a '92 Win. in .357 Magnum, and have a perfect functioning gun, with money leftover.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Blaine »

Is 30wcf not allowed in silhouette matches?
A quick Google, and I see that Beartooth has a nifty 115gr flat nosed 30 cal that would be perfect cheap plinker.
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Shasta
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Shasta »

If the rifle has a good bore, I would leave it alone. I have a Model 94 Canadian Centennial (1967) which is nearly identical to your rifle. I shoot silhouette with it regularly using the 175 gr. Lyman 311041 cast lead bullet which has much less recoil than a factory loaded jacketed bullet. I have also used 115 gr. Lyman 311008 bullets which have almost no recoil at all and are very accurate. They take down the 50 meter Chickens every time, but are too light for any of the other silhouette targets. Still a great little bullet for inexpensive plinking.

It's a lot less expensive to work up a load for the gun as opposed to working up a gun for the load! :D

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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Catshooter »

Yes, it certainly can be done.

After the barrel is re-rifled and chambered you'll also need to re-cut the attachment points for the mag tube. You might need a new bolt as the rim diameters might not (I'm not sure) be close enough for the extractor to work. All of this is quite possible.

If you're going to go to all of that work you might consider going with the 357 Max for a little more versatility.

If you're just looking for a bit more power the .35-30 and the .38-55 offer that too.

Don't let the nay-sayers dissuade you. As you can see, the world is full of 'em. It's your rifle and money, do what you want.


Cat
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by tman »

I'd leave it in 30-30 and take it hunting. A glossy finished rifle will kill game just as dead as a tactical camo one will. I kill turkey and deer wearing blaze orange.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Merle »

If the shininess bothers you that much, you can wrap it with camo tape (the non-sticky kind) like archers use.

There also is (was?) a product called "gun chaps" that slips on like a glove - easy on - easy off.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Griff »

Which "Centennial" is it. There were 3, if I recall correctly. The '66 Centennial with its brass colored receiver, the 1894-1994 top eject Centennial, which had 3 grades; and, the regular production angle ejects which were also marked 1894-1994. There also a couple of State or Provincial centennial issue... which were all done in the pre USRA (Angle Eject) period. I don't believe any top eject models were ever chambered in .357.

If it's the '66 Centennial, it's a top eject model and the later angle eject bolts with the proper cartridge head configuration for either the .38/.357 family won't work. So as mentioned above, the bolt would have to be slightly modified to properly hold the cartridge. If it's the later AE model, simply changing out the bolt will work. The .357 rim is ~.072" smaller than the .30WCF. Might make the extractor grab iffy.

The guide rails will need to be changed out to .357 versions. No a big deal... then the lifter modified to shorten the cartridge travel back. Next, increase the height of the cartridge stop on the top of the link so that it will hold the smaller cartridges in the magazine.

After that, you might just be best served to buy a .357 custom barrel, and either reaming it to fit the .357Max or .357Mag. If you have an octagon bbl. in .30-30, there's plenty of metal to set back, rethread and re-chamber.

There you have a realistic assessment of the work involved. Certainly not an "Mission Impossible", but only you can decide if it remains fantasy or fait accompli! :P :lol:
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by marlinman93 »

Catshooter wrote:Yes, it certainly can be done.

After the barrel is re-rifled and chambered you'll also need to re-cut the attachment points for the mag tube. You might need a new bolt as the rim diameters might not (I'm not sure) be close enough for the extractor to work. All of this is quite possible.

If you're going to go to all of that work you might consider going with the 357 Max for a little more versatility.

If you're just looking for a bit more power the .35-30 and the .38-55 offer that too.

Don't let the nay-sayers dissuade you. As you can see, the world is full of 'em. It's your rifle and money, do what you want.


Cat
It certainly could be done, but not as simply as you described. Relocating the mag tube? Not really. The tube needs to be smaller, which means the hole entering the receiver also needs to be welded up smaller, or bushed. So then the cartridge hits the carrier at a different angle. So the carrier needs to be reworked to stop slightly higher, and also needs to be reworked for a shorter OAL cartridge. No replacement bolt for the .357/.357 Max rim size, so again the bolt face needs to be built up and then machined for that rim size. Then make your own ejector and extractor, plus rework the bolt some more to make them work with that bolt face.
Or simply buy all the parts and pieces from an 1894 in .357 and stuff them into the gun. Or better (and cheaper) simply buy an 1894 in .357, and forget such foolishness as reworking the Centennial.
I wouldn't exactly call those who give sound advice "nay-sayers". I'd say we're trying to save him from disappointment, and the poor house.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by tman »

marlinman93 wrote:
Catshooter wrote:Yes, it certainly can be done.

After the barrel is re-rifled and chambered you'll also need to re-cut the attachment points for the mag tube. You might need a new bolt as the rim diameters might not (I'm not sure) be close enough for the extractor to work. All of this is quite possible.

If you're going to go to all of that work you might consider going with the 357 Max for a little more versatility.

If you're just looking for a bit more power the .35-30 and the .38-55 offer that too.

Don't let the nay-sayers dissuade you. As you can see, the world is full of 'em. It's your rifle and money, do what you want.


Cat
It certainly could be done, but not as simply as you described. Relocating the mag tube? Not really. The tube needs to be smaller, which means the hole entering the receiver also needs to be welded up smaller, or bushed. So then the cartridge hits the carrier at a different angle. So the carrier needs to be reworked to stop slightly higher, and also needs to be reworked for a shorter OAL cartridge. No replacement bolt for the .357/.357 Max rim size, so again the bolt face needs to be built up and then machined for that rim size. Then make your own ejector and extractor, plus rework the bolt some more to make them work with that bolt face.
Or simply buy all the parts and pieces from an 1894 in .357 and stuff them into the gun. Or better (and cheaper) simply buy an 1894 in .357, and forget such foolishness as reworking the Centennial.
I wouldn't exactly call those who give sound advice "nay-sayers". I'd say we're trying to save him from disappointment, and the poor house.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Tycer »

I've had several 94s in 357. IMHO, their only redeeming quality is that they are easily made into 360 Dan Wesson easily launching a heavy for caliber 200+ grain bullet close to the ideal for penetration 1900 fps at ten feet from the muzzle. In order to make the 357 magnum work in that gun, the designers had to add a small spring and a couple of other little changes that make it rather finicky as far as launching lots of rounds through them. They will break. Everyone I had broke. They are easily repaired, with readily available parts (spring, ejector, lever link). But why have a gun not designed for that round that breaks because of that round. If you want a 357 magnum, buy a Rossi 92, slick it up, and enjoy it! Keep the 1894 with 30-30 parent cased cartridges.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Griff »

marlinman93 wrote:
Catshooter wrote:Yes, it certainly can be done.
After the barrel is re-rifled and chambered you'll also need to re-cut the attachment points for the mag tube. You might need a new bolt as the rim diameters might not (I'm not sure) be close enough for the extractor to work. All of this is quite possible.
If you're going to go to all of that work you might consider going with the 357 Max for a little more versatility.
If you're just looking for a bit more power the .35-30 and the .38-55 offer that too.
Don't let the nay-sayers dissuade you. As you can see, the world is full of 'em. It's your rifle and money, do what you want.
Cat
It certainly could be done, but not as simply as you described. Relocating the mag tube? Not really. The tube needs to be smaller, which means the hole entering the receiver also needs to be welded up smaller, or bushed. So then the cartridge hits the carrier at a different angle. So the carrier needs to be reworked to stop slightly higher, and also needs to be reworked for a shorter OAL cartridge. No replacement bolt for the .357/.357 Max rim size, so again the bolt face needs to be built up and then machined for that rim size. Then make your own ejector and extractor, plus rework the bolt some more to make them work with that bolt face.
Or simply buy all the parts and pieces from an 1894 in .357 and stuff them into the gun. Or better (and cheaper) simply buy an 1894 in .357, and forget such foolishness as reworking the Centennial.
I wouldn't exactly call those who give sound advice "nay-sayers". I'd say we're trying to save him from disappointment, and the poor house.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/599573804
You could just install a liner in the mag tube to make it smaller, such as a lot of cowboy action shooters do in their Ubertis. Mag tubes are interchangeable. This allows the cartridge to align properly and enter the carrier at the right height & angle.

I agree.
Tycer wrote:I've had several 94s in 357. IMHO, their only redeeming quality is that they are easily made into 360 Dan Wesson easily launching a heavy for caliber 200+ grain bullet close to the ideal for penetration 1900 fps at ten feet from the muzzle. In order to make the 357 magnum work in that gun, the designers had to add a small spring and a couple of other little changes that make it rather finicky as far as launching lots of rounds through them. They will break. Everyone I had broke. They are easily repaired, with readily available parts (spring, ejector, lever link). But why have a gun not designed for that round that breaks because of that round. If you want a 357 magnum, buy a Rossi 92, slick it up, and enjoy it! Keep the 1894 with 30-30 parent cased cartridges.
Now that Tycer mentiond it... this might be the conversion that 86er did, a .357Mag mdl 94 to 360DW...
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by Tycer »

I did that conversion and sold it to Joe. That was my first and the last one sold. I converted seven.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by mikld »

Personally, I'd reload for it. Reloading will give you "mouse phart" to "Yogi Bear" capabilities. One hundred grain cast bullets to 180 gr. cast bullets and a bunch of jacketed stuff in between will allow you to tailor your gun fer shootin' jes about anything. And if I still wanted a .357 Mag/Max I'd buy a Henry Big Boy or a Marlin 1894.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by handirifle »

Most of the replies are kinda what I feared. Might cost more than it's worth, and more than buying one, sadly. It is a model 66 with the top eject and oct barrel.

As for the 38-55, I already have a 94BB in 375, so that is a wash, for me. Don't need or want 2 of them. I really don't want to hunt with it, or change the color or finish, that was why I was thinking a silhouette rifle might be fun, especially with that long barrel.

All the silhouette matches I see listed around here are for pistol calibers. Most likely because of the type of steel targets they use. Less chance of a pass through.

Not really wanting to really get into silhouette, just thought it might be a good use for the rifle. As for the bore, the rifle has less than one box of ammo through it, so perfect probably.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by marlinman93 »

Here's a very inexpensive, and good option, which also wont change a thing externally, or require any parts. Just need to buy another die set once it's done!
Have your '94 rechambered to .30-30 Ackley Improved. It will wring a lot more out of the '94, and make it not only a great silhouette gun, but also a better hunting gun. Cost of reaming the chamber is miniscule, and whatever .30-30 brass/ammo you have now can be easily fire formed to make the .30-30AI!
I owned a Marlin 336 in .30-30AI, and it's one of my regretted guns I sold. It really was a much improved gun in AI.
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Re: Caliber conversion question

Post by handirifle »

Except that all the silhouette shoots around here are for pistol caliber, thus my post. I have plenty of rifles with more power.
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