A hollowbase wadcutter seated backwards?

[Jason_W]

I've had more than one person tell me this is a highly effective defensive round in a revolver.

Has anyone here tried such a setup and is there any reason to do this instead of loading up a hollowpoint?

This is simply a hypothetical question, so if we could kindly leave out the old discussion of whether handloads for self defense is a good idea, it would be appreciated. I'm interested in the concept from a technical rather than a legal standpoint.

[Malamute]

I havent tried them in person, but all reports seems that they expand well at relatively low velocity. This may be the main attribute, lower velocity expansion. One consideration, is that they will not be as accurate at any distance as a "regular" bullet, and being soft, they will probably not be able to be driven very fast without leading. You'd have to shoot them some at your chosen velocity to find out for sure. If those points arent an issue, then they should be a good alternative.

[crs]

Jason;
Back before there were frangible loads for self defense, this was a common practice for effective self defense loads that would not overpenetrate. I used the .38 hollow base bullets over a mild charge of bullseye myself. I also loaded some of these mild loads for women to use in their .38 and .357 snubnosed revolvers. Articles on this type load appeared in the shooting press of the times.

[Bluehawk]

I Have been loading that for almost 30 years now Its ALWAYS an accurate load in every revolver I have ever tried and also in two different two shot derringers .
It is a highly effective SHORT RANGE personal defense load I recomend it for INDOOR LOCATIONS as it will not penetrate much, there fore it will not go through walls like other defense rounds. Not that it WONT go through walls ( it will ) but much les than other JHP loads.
I use 4.6 grains of Bullseye in mine Just loaded up about 60 rounds my self for fresh ammo . Gave twenty to each son and kept twenty for me.

[Hobie]

Every gun is different but I tried these in 7 different .38 Specials (I used the Hornady HBWC, IIRC) and got different results so far as accuracy was concerned. However, out to a reasonable 10 yards (30 feet) they were accurate enough.

There are better solutions out there now and I use them.

[Ray]

Almost every .38 I've carried over the years have been filled with normally loaded wadcutters. The extra rounds I carry whether looseor in a speedloader or speed strip are air force loads for easy chambering under stress. Conventionally loaded wadcutters have a good reputation of stopping power despite what Lt. Marshall and Dept. Sanow and Mister Ayoob have to say on the subject. Remember what Mister Cirrillo chose in NYPD service revolvers when heavy handloads and or Super VeL brand ammo was not availavble? The humble wadcutter training and quallifying ammo.

I have experimented with backwards wadcutters and have decided that they need more speed to both stabilize at more than 50" and to upset at even point blank range. Berry's plated version is inexpensive compared to jacketed bullet prices and can be driven to much higher speeds without leading. I have shot them up to 2500fps in a .358 Win. and they really leave a big hole in test media and in armadillos.

[Yodar]

Guys,

It is my understanding that it is not wise to use handloaded ammunition for self-defense. There can be some serious legal consequences by doing so even if it is a "clean shoot". See Ayoob's writings on the subject.

One suggestion I have seen in print is to find out what law enforcement people in your area use and use the same ammunition yourself.

Remember that if you fire in self-defense, there will be at least two names on that bullet; yours and some lawyer's. That is what one of the instructors told our CCW class at Gunsite.

Be safe.

[Bluehawk]

That one on "Not using" reloaded or self loaded ammo in self defense situations has been pounded to death here many times research some of the answers from past posts
As I have also stated here many many times before if Ayoob has said it then I do the opposite . He is the worlds "WORST" IN MY HUMBLE OPINION .
I have all the respect in the world for Gunsite and its training , but it comes down to "Were you justified in shooting :" NOT "what you shot with "

[Buffboy]

This kind of thing was heavily promoted as a very effective close range load in the past. I don't know if it had any "shoots" to show it's effectiveness. Still it was quite common back in the 70s and earlier. This idea was even the basis for the original hydroshok 38 ammo introduced back in the mid 70s. The post was added to the hydroshok to give a little more stability and better heavy clothing penetration without filling the hollow cavity.

[Texican]

I've loaded some in the past as an experiment. I've found them to be fairly accurate little biscuit cutters at 10yds (didn't shoot any targets further than that). The ones I dug out of a soft clay backstop opened up to about the diameter of a nickel. As I recall I loaded them in .357 cases with a .38 powder charge - but don't quote me on that.

[Pete44ru]

They were called "flying ashtrays", and turned the milquetoast .38 Special snubbies into a respectable arms-length manstopper.

[oldgerboy]

Ya know they make those things for .44's. I have some that I've not had the time to play with.

[Harry O]

My wife topped out at .38 Special wadcutters when it came to recoil, so I tested this with about 500 rounds -- based on an article by Skeeter Skelton that talked it up big. I shot them with different amounts of powder, different distances, in three different guns, and through targets, water bottles, ductseal clay, and wet phonebooks.

The short -- it works. It is every bit as accurate as correctly seated HBWC up to about 15-20 yards. Maybe a little bit less at 25-30 yards. By 50 yards, it is trying to reverse itself to fly the way it was designed and is difficult to keep on an 8-1/2 x 11 target from a rest. I use Hornady swaged, dead-soft HBWC.

As far as expansion, it does expand quickly -- Skelton said that it would expand passing through a prickly pear leaf. If it gets going to fast, the "lip' will completely reverse itself and with enough speed, it can shed the petals.

I took it up to 3.5gr of 231. It started leading in one barrel that was obviously rougher at that speed. In a couple of other barrels, it could go faster, but that was about what my wife was happy with anyhow so I stayed there. I still get her to shoot 50 rounds or so a month with them.

They are loaded in her Ruger SP-101 next to her bed. She has never had to use it and I hope she never does. If she does, I will worry about the "handloaded dum-dum bullets" at that time. I would rather she use something that will probably work better than standard wadcutters.

[adirondakjack]

I loaded a couple of my little HB 120 grain .45 bullets upside down and drove em at about 1100+ fps into a water jug at point blank range.

A single one-gallon water jug had only a couple of speck-sized exit holes. The jug was totally shredded like it had been hit by a 3000 fps rifle bullet. I found a few pieces of the bullet in the snow, the biggest was a disk that had been the nose (base as loaded upside down). the others were small, maybe 20 grains or less.

At more than "serious social work" distances, they'd be useless, but up close and personal, likely instantly fatal.



here's a sectioned sample of the bullet used.


Since it is so light (120 gr .45) I can drive em pretty fast, but yes, leading would be an issue if run TOO fast. They are cast of 50/50 pure lead/WW.

At 1300 fps, even rightside up they are pretty nasty

jug shot at 1300 fps. That's an exit hole.

[4t5]

IF I remember correctly,in one of PACO'S books, he makes a very bad day for a BLACK BEAR with a reverse loaded wadcutter.

[kimwcook]

Talking big critter strategy with John Linebaugh one day and he said to just load the bullet backwards. It's devastating. I've never had the oppurtunity to test it.

[scr83jp]

They were called "flying ashtrays", and turned the milquetoast .38 Special snubbies into a respectable arms-length manstopper.

That was the Speer 200 gr JHP,there have been murders with the inverted HB WC makes an entrance 38 hole & inside the area turns to mush.I've loaded them for years but only for practice,for my carry weapons I only use new factory ammo,it's one less hurtle in a court case if I get into a self defense shooting & get sued.

[NonPCnraRN]

I would think that the .357 cal full wadcutter would have a meplat of at least .35". That is larger than a lot of meplats on .429 hard cast bullets. Penn makes a 230 gr Thunderhead SOFT cast bullet for 38/.357 revolvers for guys that shoot bowling pins. The thing looks like a flying oil drum and is cast of soft lead to grab the hardwood of the bowling pins yet have the mass to knock them over. They are rated to 900 fps. Now you hit someone in the chest with 230 gr of soft cast lead bullet shaped like an oil drum and any antisocial activity should be brief. It kind of reminds me of the old 200gr RN 38 load except the bullet nose is flat and ALMOST full diameter and soft lead. Here is the Penn site:
http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html
As to the court defense propaganda.....just tell the court you use the "target" loads because they are the most accurate, give you the greatest control and you felt it was your responsibility to hit what you aimed at in a self defense situation. The velocity of target wadcutters is lower than hollowpoint ammo so nobody can accuse you of using super high velocity killer bullets/ammo.

[SPROCKET]

My father used to load hollow base wadcutters backwards in his .44 Redhawk. I was pretty young at the time so I don't remember much except they mostly hit the paper sidways at 15yds and were accompanied by a 12" muzzle blast. I don't think being hit by one would be pleasant.

[Noah Zark]

My wife topped out at .38 Special wadcutters when it came to recoil, so I tested this with about 500 rounds -- based on an article by Skeeter Skelton that talked it up big. I shot them with different amounts of powder, different distances, in three different guns, and through targets, water bottles, ductseal clay, and wet phonebooks.

The short -- it works. It is every bit as accurate as correctly seated HBWC up to about 15-20 yards. Maybe a little bit less at 25-30 yards. By 50 yards, it is trying to reverse itself to fly the way it was designed and is difficult to keep on an 8-1/2 x 11 target from a rest. I use Hornady swaged, dead-soft HBWC.

As far as expansion, it does expand quickly -- Skelton said that it would expand passing through a prickly pear leaf. If it gets going to fast, the "lip' will completely reverse itself and with enough speed, it can shed the petals.

+1, I recall reading about reversing hollow base wadcutters being all the rage in the late 60s and throughout the 70s in the popular gun rag press. Skelton was a proponent of the practice, and Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith mentioned it in their writings as well. Later on, other gun writers like Dick Metcalf, J B Wood, and Layne Simpson did articles on reversed HB wadcutters, or at least mentioned the practice in a reloading article.

Noah

[Lobo]

I've had Old-Timers tell me they loaded 'em backward, and filled the hollow base with grease.....supposed to be Thor's Hammer!