Really?44wcf that bad? 223 that good.

[gregg]

couple deer I cleaned been shot with a 223 I was underwhelm. I would shoot a deer with a 223 but it have be close and open lung heart shot. I never seen or shot a deer with 44wcf . what I seen 45 Round ball,44 mag rifle and SBH 44 tells me he is wrong. All what we call today short range rifles. I like getting in the trees to hunt so I'm good with these guns. I'm thinking you all have thought on all this. Love hear them. a lot field experience here.


and the 223 carbine hits harder than the 44-40 ever did, as well as offering 2x as fast repeat hits. the 44-40 was just a 200 gr lfp, lead flat point, no expansion, at 1200 fps, which is just 650 ft lbs. About like a 6" .357 revolver gets. The M4 offers 1000 ft lbs, if you load it right. Having half again as much power as a proven combat rifle means that the M4 is no joke, folks.

The M4 /233 also offers just as much penetration (given the right bullet)than, or a lot more shock and tissue destruction (depending upon the bullet) than the 44-40.. Since the AR offers twice as much repeat-hit speed than the old lever gun, you can load every other rd as a Nosler Partition softpoint and then load a 62 gr Steel capped penetrator. Then just use the autorifle's superior action-type to get hits with both rds just as fast as you could get only one with the 44-40.

So much for people who claim that the M4=223 is "not enough gun". Half as much gun was enough for lots tougher critters and people than you'll have to deal with if bad times. The 223, even with just the softpoints, pierces concealable body armor like it's not even present. An iron sighted M4 has twice the effective range that a 44-40 had. With scope and bipod, it's got 3x the range of the old 44-40, too.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/self-suf ... z4HvdSf4UR
http://www.city-data.com/forum/self-suf ... -deer.html

[Ray]

Deleted.

[.45colt]

Around 1895 the new 30-30 took the sporting World by storm, shoots flatter, extended range, no cloud of smoke.....in the 1970's& 80's the gun mags all declared the 45-70 and .45 colt were obsolete....and So it goes.

[AJMD429]

Energy isn't the whole story by any means.

Making a large hole through the thorax is lethal, and old 'pistol caliber' cartridges do that well. In fact, a large but slow chunk of lead is more likely to plow through intact and exit the other side, versus a bullet going so fast it shatters on impact; then you get two holes, which is mo betta than one hole (more pneumothorax, faster onset of hypotension and syncope).

The only advantage velocity (which is 2/3 of where the energy comes from) offers is a flatter trajectory so it is easier to hit with at longer ranges.

[M. M. Wright]

I have personally killed many (10+) deer with both calibers mentioned and greatly prefer the 44-40. No, not as much range, which is limited here anyway, but it makes 2 holes which make a better blood trail. Often the 223 leaves no blood at all and it seems to me that more of it's quarry need following. There just is not as much trauma to the insides of the 223/5.56 victims.

[Griff]

"...a lot more shock and tissue destruction (depending upon the bullet) than the 44-40..."

That right there sez it all for me... I'm votin' for the .44-40! More tissue destruction means less edible meat. Why I prefer to hunt with my .30-30s over the 7mmRMs.

[AJMD429]

"...a lot more shock and tissue destruction (depending upon the bullet) than the 44-40..."

That right there sez it all for me... I'm votin' for the .44-40! More tissue destruction means less edible meat. Why I prefer to hunt with my .30-30s over the 7mmRMs.

Yep. If the object were just to kill the deer, a high-velocity pointy-bullet cartridge would do well.

[Grizz]

"...a lot more shock and tissue destruction (depending upon the bullet) than the 44-40..."

That right there sez it all for me... I'm votin' for the .44-40! More tissue destruction means less edible meat. Why I prefer to hunt with my .30-30s over the 7mmRMs.

this^

the 556 is designed to destroy meat. the others are designed to harvest meat. big difference.

[jeepnik]

I've never used the .223/5.56 on game animals. I have too many other calibers that are better. The .223/5.56 were designed for anti-personnel work. In that arena the cartridge works well, even if the some of the rifles were thing's.

Folks have been killing game and humans with the 44 WCF since it's inception. It worked then, it works today. All that is required are the appropriate skills. But today we often find those skills lacking.

And that's the real issue, it's never the cartridge or the firearm. It is the person who is responsible for selecting the proper combination and then applying them with the necessary skill.

[1894cfan]

I've never used the .223/5.56 on game animals. I have too many other calibers that are better. The .223/5.56 were designed for anti-personnel work. In that arena the cartridge works well, even if the some of the rifles were thing's.

Folks have been killing game and humans with the 44 WCF since it's inception. It worked then, it works today. All that is required are the appropriate skills. But today we often find those skills lacking.

And that's the real issue, it's never the cartridge or the firearm. It is the person who is responsible for selecting the proper combination and then applying them with the necessary skill.

THAT is why I consider firearms as tools, each caliber for a specific purpose or use! YMMV

[Blaine]

I suppose that with heavy for calibre premium bullets, I'd use a .223, but I'd rather not.

[gregg]

I posted this as interesting. On paper I'm sure he is right. I have seen muzzle loader round ball kills beyond the paper ballistic would tell you. just interesting .In SD you cannot use 38wcf 44wcf on deer. you cannot use 32wcf on turkey. couple years ago I used my marlin 32wcf on a turkey. It is my turkey gun now be what ever. I see 38wcf and 44wcf deer hunting in my future ..

[jeepnik]

I've never used the .223/5.56 on game animals. I have too many other calibers that are better. The .223/5.56 were designed for anti-personnel work. In that arena the cartridge works well, even if the some of the rifles were thing's.

Folks have been killing game and humans with the 44 WCF since it's inception. It worked then, it works today. All that is required are the appropriate skills. But today we often find those skills lacking.

And that's the real issue, it's never the cartridge or the firearm. It is the person who is responsible for selecting the proper combination and then applying them with the necessary skill.

THAT is why I consider firearms as tools, each caliber for a specific purpose or use! YMMV

Sadly to some folks all tools are a hammer, or a hammer is all tools. No elegance is required by these folks.

[gregg]

I've never used the .223/5.56 on game animals. I have too many other calibers that are better. The .223/5.56 were designed for anti-personnel work. In that arena the cartridge works well, even if the some of the rifles were thing's.

Folks have been killing game and humans with the 44 WCF since it's inception. It worked then, it works today. All that is required are the appropriate skills. But today we often find those skills lacking.

And that's the real issue, it's never the cartridge or the firearm. It is the person who is responsible for selecting the proper combination and then applying them with the necessary skill.

THAT is why I consider firearms as tools, each caliber for a specific purpose or use! YMMV

Sadly to some folks all tools are a hammer, or a hammer is all tools. No elegance is required by these folks.

Good points . My glass half full part of me thinks this is a bunch That knows There a rifle limit and a personal limit Like bow hunting. We I hope operate in that limit. But yet I know out in the wood is a bunch hoople heads. (did I spell that right)

[JB]

Both will do the job within limits, but neither would be my first choice.

[cshold]

You need how many FPS...

[Bob Hatfield]

The last two deer I killed with a smokeless gun I used a 16 inch AR 15. I used Barnes 55 grain TSX all copper hollow points. The first one laser ranged in an alfalfa field at 195 yards was a large doe and was a bang flop through the lungs/liver area (no exit) The second one was a 6 point last fall with the same bullet at 35 yards. He went 30 yards and expired (bullet exited violently). Inside the destruction from that bullet was devastating on both deer. Farmers have taught me over the years that it isn't the gun but where you point it. I feel a good bullet also is important.

With that being said I have acquired an 1873 Winchester in 38-40 that I will use some this year. My handload chronographs around 1280 fps or so. It is dead on at 50 yards and I can raise the rear sight one notch and it is dead on at 100. Cant wait to place that tiny bead behind a deer's shoulder

Bob

[marlinman93]

I've used both calibers for mule deer, and I'm calling BS on a bunch of this. The only part I agree with is the mention of a blood trail. The .44-40 will definitely leave a wound that leaves a blood trail, if the deer runs off. My .223 and .22-250 neither left a blood trail, but then I've never had a deer take a step after being hit by either. All dropped with one shot, and all were placed behind the shoulder. I also never lost as much meat as I did with my .44-40, as bullets fragmented completely on entering, and never exited the opposite side of the body. They did leave shrapnel in the off side ribs, but no great loss of meat, unless you eat deer ribs.
I've taken probably 12-14 mule deer with a .22CF in the two calibers, and at ranges from just over 100 yds. to 364 yds. (measured with a range finder). When I first started hunting with my .22 CF's my hunting partners laughed at the thought of bringing down deer with it. Within a couple years, two of them had switched to the same rifle/caliber, after seeing the results, and the lack of damage to meat.
I wont knock the .44-40, as it has proven more than adequate out to 150 yds. for me. But it certainly did more damage to meat, and it is somewhat limited in range when compared to a good .22CF caliber.

[Grizz]

Nice animal. makes my mouth water.

What bullet did you use in the 44-40?

My first deer was with a savage 99 .243 and that caused massive damage to the lungs, blew part of them out the exit hole, but I missed all the meaty bits.

My 45/70/525 loafing along at 1400+ fps goes thru bone without shattering it, as in the hip joint, and exits anyway, and as they say on the internet, 'you can eat right up to the hole.

I wonder what the 44 load was if it was messing up meat.

[marlinman93]

Nice animal. makes my mouth water.

What bullet did you use in the 44-40?

My first deer was with a savage 99 .243 and that caused massive damage to the lungs, blew part of them out the exit hole, but I missed all the meaty bits.

My 45/70/525 loafing along at 1400+ fps goes thru bone without shattering it, as in the hip joint, and exits anyway, and as they say on the internet, 'you can eat right up to the hole.

I wonder what the 44 load was if it was messing up meat.

The mule deer was taken with my .22-250 and a 55 gr. spire point at about 140 yds. across a draw. Kind of a chip shot for the little .22CF.
For my .44-40 loads I am using a 200 gr. flat point I cast from an old Ideal mold. I push it out the muzzle at around 1300 fps, and it does a nice job of dropping bucks.