Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

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Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by 2ndovc »

Picked up a couple consulting gigs so back on the replacement hunt. Next two, an AK that one I know which one I want, and a combat/ defense style 12 ga pump.
I've had Mossberg 500/590s and Rem. 870s, like them both. Love the smoothness of the 870 but like the controls better on the Mossberg's. I stopped by a new outdoor/ gun shop that just opened by my office to look at them both again in various configurations and noticed the Winchester SXP Defender. Price wise it's a little less that the Mossberg felt and pointed well, action was pretty smooth. There's a great big stamp on the side of the barrel that says Made in Turkey. I know the Turks have been making good guns for a very long time but can't find much info on them. I'm thinking that I'm going to start with the Mil style 590 with the ghost ring sights and maybe add one of the Winchester's if I can find out a little more about it.
Briefly looked at the Savage/ Stevens 320 Chinese import. It seems like a decent gun but a $200 gun is a $200 gun.

Still have my Win 1897 Riot gun so it's all good for now. Just thinking out loud. :D

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Griff »

I started with an 870, stayed with one from the military thru 2 agencies, so it'd be what I'd grab; if the 1897 cowboy guns weren't in the way!
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Blaine »

I still have & like that 870 Tactical. The way my shoulder has been I sort of wish it was a 20.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

870.... Nuf said !
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by jdad »

No military or LEO background. Grew up with the Mossberg 500.....all I know.

Lusted after the Franchi SPAS 12 for a while when I was younger. https://youtu.be/dRWoRlczRHw
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 2ndovc »

jdad wrote:No military or LEO background. Grew up with the Mossberg 500.....all I know.

Lusted after the Franchi SPAS 12 for a while when I was younger. https://youtu.be/dRWoRlczRHw

Quite the salad maker! :D

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by vancelw »

2ndovc wrote: I've had Mossberg 500/590s and Rem. 870s, like them both. Love the smoothness of the 870 but like the controls better on the Mossberg's.

jb 8)

I've had several of both and agree. 870 is smooth and reliable but I like the placement of the Mossberg's controls better.

However, I've never had any of my 870s malfunction on me in any manner whatsoever. I can't say that about my Mossbergs, and I've used the 870 waaay more than the Mossbergs. A common problem with the Mossbergs is the cartridge stop lever bends over time, either failing to let the next round come out of the tube, or less commonly, letting more than one round out.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Another +1 on mossys. Especially the Mariner series of indestructible, nigh saltwater-proof pumpers.

Heck, I busted my first full Run of 75 with a cylinder bore Mariner (much to the chagrin of the Benelli Boys) :twisted:
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 2ndovc »

vancelw wrote:
2ndovc wrote: I've had Mossberg 500/590s and Rem. 870s, like them both. Love the smoothness of the 870 but like the controls better on the Mossberg's.

jb 8)

I've had several of both and agree. 870 is smooth and reliable but I like the placement of the Mossberg's controls better.

However, I've never had any of my 870s malfunction on me in any manner whatsoever. I can't say that about my Mossbergs, and I've used the 870 waaay more than the Mossbergs. A common problem with the Mossbergs is the cartridge stop lever bends over time, either failing to let the next round come out of the tube, or less commonly, letting more than one round out.
There's something I didn't know. I ran a lot of rounds through the 590 I had without a problem and had bought it used with an unknown number fired through it before I got it. It's been resting comfortably in a friends closet for about ten years. I "loaned" it to him when he was living in a rough neighborhood and thought I might get it back when he moved. :D
Didn't have the 870 long enough to really run it out. I'd sold it to buy a Moss 930 SPX which was way cool but I kept trying to pump the darned thing. A result of growing up with multiple Model 12s in the house.

Hope all is good down there ya lousy Reb!

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Poohgyrr »

I expect both the 590 & 870 have proven themselves. I have always returned to the 870, & that's my primary house long gun these days.

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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

I use my shotgun defensively against wild pigs and pheasants. I've owned a Remington 870, a Mossberg 500, and a Winchester 1300 even a Browning BPS. I kept the 1300. I found it smoothest of the 4, and lightest of the 4, and the most reliable in rough, dirty, dusty conditions. To my original 1300 XTR Featherweight Uplander I added a Parkerized 20" rifled barrel with rifle sights, and a 7 round magazine tube extension, and sling swivels. I like the American made 1200s, and 1300s but not familiar with "Turkish" Winchesters. If I had to choose between the Mossberg, and the Remington I would go with the Mossberg as it was a very close second to the Winchester.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by JerryB »

I have an old Mossberg 500 police gun,12 gauge 8 shot 20 inch barrel that has been standing by the bed for about 15 years. When I take it out for some shooting it just works fine and don't complain at all. I paid 100 bucks for it.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by jeepnik »

870. But I'm prejudice because they make a lefty version.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by tman »

870 18" barrel 7-shot extension with rifled sights, improved cylinder, or better yet, choke tubes. Good for anything that walks ,crawls ,flies or swims still living on this planet, out to 200 yards, if you are really really, good at range and drop estimation.{not me} Been using my 870 since 1972 for a variety of stuff, has never let me down. 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 2ndovc »

Had time to stop and chat with my dealer/ holster making friend. Asked his opinion on the Winchester and the others. He put the 870 on top as most of you did but also thought the Mossberg's were fine for what I'll be using it for. He's sold a few of the Winchester SXPs, hasn't fired one but hasn't had any come back either. He has had a few of the Turkish made Weatherby's and has good experiences with those. He didn't have any of the three in stock and couldn't come close to the sale price of the bigger store on the Winchester. So I'll head back over tomorrow to the new place and take a look at all three again.

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

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I live in the flint hills of Kansas. The other day the County Sheriff pulls in the driveway while I was walking. He says somebody complained of seeing a Ghost around here!!! Well I got my Ghost Busting Machine out an went on Patrol. My gun of choice, Old Sears Western Field, basically a Mossberg 550. The pump action on this gun is smooth as butter. The select-o-Choke is old school. I really like this shotgun. It's maybe from early to mid 70's. By the way, the ghost, it was just me!!! Not enough Sun!!! Wake Up America!!!











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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Don't remember about the 870, but a Mossy makes a pretty decent 209 Muzzlestuffer with the OEM drop-in barrel...

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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by wecsoger »

Looks like trending is for the 870 platform and I'll have to agree.

But the Mossy 500/590 would probably work for you also. If you're not into competition, I scarce doubt you'd shoot one out

I just don't have any because things are in different places, Mossberg v. Remington.

I'd sooner be stabbed with a pencil than buy something new from Remington. But hit the local stores, plenty of used 870's around.

If you're going defensive, don't matter what configuration you buy since you're going to swap out most of it.

Speedfeed makes /excellent/ buttstocks - they have one that has two, two round tubes for extra ammo, total of four.

Go to Brownells for mag extenders, and if you go that way, get a mag/barrel clamp.

If you get a newer 870, it will have magazine tube dimples to prevent use of an extended mag. These drill out easily.

Think long and hard before you put a mag extender on.

Think even more before you put a side saddle on. I have one, like it, but it's a pain in the side always digging into me with the weapon slinged

Go to Brownells and you can get a sling plate that mounts between the buttstock and receiver - that gives you another sling point

Go shorter than 18" barrel, muzzle blast starts becoming problematic.

DO NOT get a pistol grip or folding stock, or you will never get a Christmas card from me again.

My current little 'home' gun is an 870, 18" barrel with bead, mag extender with clamp, synthetic youth stock (shorter!) with sling running from the buttstock/receiver plate to the rear of the butt stock

With the sling on the weapon that way I can have the sling on, pull the weapon to my shoulder, operate if I need to, if I need to use my handgun or do something else I can just drop it. it will slide down but still that blankety blank sidesaddle will dig into my thigh.

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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Awwww...

The pistol grip and folder I had on my Mariner made it a right handy River gun for salmon fishing... and an "illegally short" barrel for it made it a right nice piece for Canukland as well.

No, I didn't shoot my 75 with the folder, but it sure made it handy...
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Another vote for the 870. I still have my 870 marine I've used offshore for years.

BTW, did Mossberg ever change the plastic top safety's on the 500's? I've had to fix 2 or 3 of them over the years.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 1894c »

Been using a Remington 870 Police Magnum, with a Wilson Combat extended mag, bead front sight, 18" barrel, and with walnut furniture (no plastic stock, wood is old school and pretty cooool) for the last 11 years-- this is the same model that my LE Agency has in every patrol vehicle. I also own a Mossberg 500, 18 1/2" barrel, bead front sight, and a short stock, this is my front door welcome, now get off my porch shotgun... :)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Several people mentioned controls. One thing to think about is what type of stock you want. The controls work differently with traditional stocks than with types with pistol grips. The particular stock can make a difference too. It changes the ease of safety manipulation, so stock design can be a deciding factor between say an 870 or 500/590. Or it may lead to replacing the 590 trigger group with a Maverick 88 trigger group.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 2ndovc »

Ok, so here's what I decided to do.

I went back today and looked at all three again briefly. I decided that the Winchester SXP on sale for $299 was worth a "shot" so to speak, so I put $35 down on it for layaway. I really haven't found much info on them so decided I'd do my own review. :D
I'll eventually add another 870 when I can and probably a 590 as well or skip them both and buy a Benelli M4!

I'll put up some pictures when I get it home.

Thanks for the feedback Guys!

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Paladin »

2ndovc wrote:Ok, so here's what I decided to do.

I went back today and looked at all three again briefly. I decided that the Winchester SXP on sale for $299 was worth a "shot" so to speak, so I put $35 down on it for layaway. I really haven't found much info on them so decided I'd do my own review. :D
I'll eventually add another 870 when I can and probably a 590 as well or skip them both and buy a Benelli M4!

I'll put up some pictures when I get it home.

Thanks for the feedback Guys!

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Streetstar »

I'm going a little against the grain --- as I have 2 Rem 870's right now --- but I really preferred a Winchester Defender - I believe it was a 1300 action - not the current Defender model - no experience with that one
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by MrMurphy »

I've owned multiple 870s. Carry one on duty. Owned multiple Mossberg. For a standard stock, prefer Mossberg safety. If it's shot a lot, 870P wins. The Benelli Nova and Supernova are also excellent having owned a few. The current Winchester would do fine for your needs but accessories are scarcer.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Another vote for the 870. I still have my 870 marine I've used offshore for years.

BTW, did Mossberg ever change the plastic top safety's on the 500's? I've had to fix 2 or 3 of them over the years.

Anybody know if they are still using the plastic slider top safety? At one time there are aftermarket steel replacements.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by gamekeeper »

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Another vote for the 870. I still have my 870 marine I've used offshore for years.

BTW, did Mossberg ever change the plastic top safety's on the 500's? I've had to fix 2 or 3 of them over the years.

Anybody know if they are still using the plastic slider top safety? At one time there are aftermarket steel replacements.
The plastic safety broke on my ATP and I replaced it with a much better designed steel one. I'm pretty sure the last new ones I looked at still had a plastic safety. I'll check next time I'm at my local toy shop.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by superchicken »

My mossy is 22 years old. It had the plastic safety until I replaced it with an oversized aluminum version. The original one was sticky, but the replacement moves like butter. Still has the plastic trigger guard. Never had a problem with it. I used to like the 870 safety, but all the long guns I shoot now have tang safeties.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by shiloh505 »

Not a fan of 870's. I used them for years on the P.D. and a found them poorly built and needing constant repair/maintenance. After I retired I was the armorer for a private company and found 870's to be ..........stuff. I personally own an older Mossberg 500 and it has functioned beautifully. I don't know if the recently built Mossbergs are as good but my old one is here to stay.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

shiloh505 wrote:Not a fan of 870's. I used them for years on the P.D. and a found them poorly built and needing constant repair/maintenance. After I retired I was the armorer for a private company and found 870's to be ..........stuff. I personally own an older Mossberg 500 and it has functioned beautifully. I don't know if the recently built Mossbergs are as good but my old one is here to stay.

What sort of repairs?
My only beef with the mossy is the plastic safety's located in a bad place so they get damages regularly.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Blaine »

Unless you're using your 870 as a battering ram, or club I don't see how they would accumulate that much damage. :shock:
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by sore shoulder »

I've had a couple of issued 590's and 500 defenders that had the safety issue. CLP cured it. I prefer the 500/590 over an 870. I've had both and the only one that malfunctioned was the 870. I gave it away.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by AJMD429 »

superchicken wrote:My mossy is 22 years old. It had the plastic safety until I replaced it with an oversized aluminum version. The original one was sticky, but the replacement moves like butter. Still has the plastic trigger guard. Never had a problem with it. I used to like the 870 safety, but all the long guns I shoot now have tang safeties.
Where'd you get your aluminum replacement...?
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

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sore shoulder wrote:I've had a couple of issued 590's and 500 defenders that had the safety issue. CLP cured it. I prefer the 500/590 over an 870. I've had both and the only one that malfunctioned was the 870. I gave it away.
What prezackly happened to it?
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by sore shoulder »

Dirt behind the shell stops which prevented it from cycling rounds out of the magazine. Those shell stops are staked to the reciever and it is nearly impossible to get it all out. Mod berg shell stops are remove able. Also, the 870 require and extension to get more capacity. Adding an extension required peening a dimple out of the tube and there's a lip where the extension mates and that can cause issues. Mossbergs come with full length extended tubes.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by superchicken »

AJMD429 wrote:
superchicken wrote:My mossy is 22 years old. It had the plastic safety until I replaced it with an oversized aluminum version. The original one was sticky, but the replacement moves like butter. Still has the plastic trigger guard. Never had a problem with it. I used to like the 870 safety, but all the long guns I shoot now have tang safeties.
Where'd you get your aluminum replacement...?
http://elitetacticaladvantage.com/produ ... afety.html

Generally I chuckle at anything named 'elite' or 'tactical' and it's on the pricey side, but it's a much better design than the ones Brownells sells. I mounted it on a camo 24" turkey gun M500. I also have a 24" rifled barrel and an 18.5" plain bead.

I've shot just about everything but elk and pronghorn with that gun. It's ridden in muck and sand and salty water in the bottom of a canoe until there are patches of the finish worn off. I've used the stock as a paddle. I've carried it in big bear country, stuffed with Brennekes. It's not my favorite gun, but it's the one I use when what I have to do is too ugly for my sxs guns. Tactical?... Meh, I dont give a carp about that. It's homely and it doesn't point like a fine sxs, but I shoot it better than I should. That gun is a killer.
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Nazgul
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Nazgul »

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2ndovc
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by 2ndovc »

That's gotta be fun!!! :D

jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Blaine »

sore shoulder wrote:Dirt behind the shell stops which prevented it from cycling rounds out of the magazine. Those shell stops are staked to the reciever and it is nearly impossible to get it all out. Mod berg shell stops are remove able. Also, the 870 require and extension to get more capacity. Adding an extension required peening a dimple out of the tube and there's a lip where the extension mates and that can cause issues. Mossbergs come with full length extended tubes.
Thanks. Hopefully, given the almost non-use of this beast, I won't run into these problems. Is there any chance that the 870 Tactical model has avoided these problems?
I had a Mossy pump as my very first real gun in the middle 60s. If you cycled it too fast, the single rail on the pump would bind a bit. Had to be careful to pull it straight back. That always bothered me, so I have avoided Mossy since I got rid of that one.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by MrMurphy »

The "dimple" only exists on the 870 Express.

The 870 Police Magnum, which is what most departments issue, is the original design and can be extended without issue. I've owned both, and the PM is definitely the "older, better" design than the Express, which is the budget gun made for the average user. PM's have steel triggerguards, not plastic, etc.


Louis Awerbuck, who can safely be said to have shot and seen shot more 12ga in tactical-type shotgun use than all of us put together ever will, had a definite preference for the 870 (Police) over the Mossberg 590 series guns, because they were easier to strip and work on and tended to hold up better under large amounts of rounds. But he never had an issue with a person having a favorite of the two as both worked fine for your typical 10-20 round usage in a real situation. He and his students however, shot thousands of rounds per week, most weeks...for several decades. So he obviously had favorites.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by 2ndovc »

Went to pick up the Winchester Defender this afternoon. Did the paperwork. Waited, waited and waited. New girl on the computer I guess. Got up front to pay for it and noticed as the lady is doing her thing that the box said 20 Gage on the end of it. Turns out that someone put the wrong tag on the last FDE 12 gage and taped my info to the wrong box. The nice lady gets the store manager up, he looks at what happened and goes to see what the options are since they don't have any of the FDE's left. He comes back in a few with another Defender but it's black with a pistol grip and dual accessory mounts on the barrel/tube. The tag in this says $379 ( way more than I wanted to spend on a gun I really don't know much about) and tells me that their cost is $319( $20 more than the FDE sale price) and would sell it to me for that.
$319 plus tax later I was on my way home. I was going to run out to the range but it's been storming all afternoon so the range report will have to wait until tomorrow morning.


jb 8)
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Grizz »

BlaineG wrote: I had a Mossy pump as my very first real gun in the middle 60s. If you cycled it too fast, the single rail on the pump would bind a bit. Had to be careful to pull it straight back. That always bothered me, so I have avoided Mossy since I got rid of that one.
interesting. what model?? my mossberg has two rails, like this:

http://www.gunsourcebyzcl.com/home/Gun- ... 00-diagram
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by jeepnik »

I always wondered why neither Remington or Winchester never made a "riot" gun configuration in 20 ga. I don't think you could find a better home defense weapon.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Blaine »

Grizz wrote:
BlaineG wrote: I had a Mossy pump as my very first real gun in the middle 60s. If you cycled it too fast, the single rail on the pump would bind a bit. Had to be careful to pull it straight back. That always bothered me, so I have avoided Mossy since I got rid of that one.
interesting. what model?? my mossberg has two rails, like this:

http://www.gunsourcebyzcl.com/home/Gun- ... 00-diagram
Beats me....I don't remember it being a 500, though. It was a shorter barrel with an adjustable choke. One rail. If you didn't pull it straight back it would bind a bit. A long time ago, single rail pumps were not that uncommon. This was the 60s....

Here...I found this:

Introduced in 1961, all model 500s are based on the same basic concept designed by Carl Benson. Originally using a single action bar, that was known to bind and even break, this was changed to dual action bars in 1970, following the expiration of Remington's patent on the double action bar design. A single large locking lug is used to secure the breech. The magazine tube is located below the barrel, and is screwed into the receiver. The slide release is located to the left rear of the trigger guard, and the safety is located on the upper rear of the receiver (often called a "tang safety").
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by .45colt »

When I was about 17 (around 1970) I saved My Hay money and got a Mossberg 500, My first decent pump. in the next few years I broke the single action bar twice. the second time I sold it and got an 870.new model 500's have two action bars. In 1979 K-Mart had the model 500 .410 on sale for $80.00. A far cry from what they sell today. mine has a very nice walnut stock on it, had the choke opened up to skeet. grown Men get all flustered on the Skeet field when You out score them with a fancy over under shooting a Mossy. the .410 has a single action bar.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by cas »

Unfortunately you 870 guys are living in the past.
Sadly I would choose a 500 in a second over a new 870. What Remington has become is shameful. :cry:
Slow is just slow.
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. What's your preference?

Post by Grizz »

thanks, that clears it up. I think my mossberg dates from around 75 maybe.

BlaineG wrote:
Grizz wrote:
BlaineG wrote: I had a Mossy pump as my very first real gun in the middle 60s. If you cycled it too fast, the single rail on the pump would bind a bit. Had to be careful to pull it straight back. That always bothered me, so I have avoided Mossy since I got rid of that one.
interesting. what model?? my mossberg has two rails, like this:

http://www.gunsourcebyzcl.com/home/Gun- ... 00-diagram
Beats me....I don't remember it being a 500, though. It was a shorter barrel with an adjustable choke. One rail. If you didn't pull it straight back it would bind a bit. A long time ago, single rail pumps were not that uncommon. This was the 60s....

Here...I found this:

Introduced in 1961, all model 500s are based on the same basic concept designed by Carl Benson. Originally using a single action bar, that was known to bind and even break, this was changed to dual action bars in 1970, following the expiration of Remington's patent on the double action bar design. A single large locking lug is used to secure the breech. The magazine tube is located below the barrel, and is screwed into the receiver. The slide release is located to the left rear of the trigger guard, and the safety is located on the upper rear of the receiver (often called a "tang safety").
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by Blaine »

cas wrote:Unfortunately you 870 guys are living in the past.
Sadly I would choose a 500 in a second over a new 870. What Remington has become is shameful. :cry:
My 870 IS from the past. :wink:
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Re: Defense style pump shotguns. Interesting twist.

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

I installed Brownells Big Head Safety's on all my 870's and 1100's many years ago. Lots of years of shooting and safety manipulation is so ingrained in me I am poking for it whenever I try to shoot a messburg. There is no action as slick as an early 870 "Wingmaster" .
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