need Win 94 help

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superchicken
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need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Evening folks,

I recently acquired a 1954 Win 94 that has that slightly annoying habit of popping the lever and locking block down slightly when fired. It doesn't kick all the way down by any means, but its really noticeable and you can't stop it if you grip the lever hard. I asked some folks (maybe here) and someone suggested switching out the friction stud and spring. So I promptly sent off to Homestead for the parts, and then I got busy and lost them. Fast forward a few months to yesterday, I'm cleaning out the closet in my office and find that little envelope from Homestead. Not wanting to lose it again, I took the old gal apart this afternoon, and frankly I may have been the first to see under her skirt. While her bore was pretty clean, she was pretty filthy inside the action. I suspect there was 62 years of funk build up, but I got her clean. The problem is that friction stud pin. I cannot get that little sucker out for the life of me. I've broken 2 of those little 1/16" punches. Tried both directions, but it appears it is supposed to come out left to right. I've tried it with the stud depressed and not. Am I missing something here? Is there anything else that could be causing the locking block to slip when fired? It's a little disconcerting, but I measured the fired brass. They are all under 30-30 SAAMI specs, so I doubt its anything major. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to get the old gal back to work.

Thanks--Sean
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ollogger
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by ollogger »

Some of mine will do that if I have my elbow on the bench & cant flow with the recoil
but never off hand shooting



Brad
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fordwannabe
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by fordwannabe »

I would take the lever out(assume you did that) and soak it in some kroil or an acetone/atf 50/50 mix for a couple days and see if it helps. Some of those things get really set in the lever. Good luck.
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Griff
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Griff »

Check your headspace. Check to see how tight the locking lug is in its mortise. If it's loose, your bolt could be forcing it down. Another thing could be the rails along the bolt, if they're a loose fit in that mortise, Bolt could be riding up and pushing the lug down.

The friction stud really only holds up the weight of the lever & lower link... not meant to withstand any recoil.
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

Question.
Does the action lock up loaded and stay locked up or is it wanting to pop open with the slightest touch?
N.
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superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

I can flick the lever down from a locked position pretty easily with the tip of a pinky finger and I can just as easily push the locking block down from the top when it's locked up with pretty light pressure from a pinky finger. Muy scientific measurements there, eh? The locking block slides easily in it's grooves, but does't seem to have much if any wobble. Don't really know how to quantify that either. I ran a case in with a backed out primer and it seated it pretty well, so I don't think I have a headspace problem. If it's the friction stud, I think it's going to be a booger to get out. It looks like one end of the pin is mushroomed out a bit.

Thanks for giving this some thought.

Sean
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Malamute »

What loads are you shooting in it?

William Iorg mentioned "lever kick" as one of the signs of getting close to max for a particular gun. Some of his guns/loads would kick some in summer and not in winter. Just enough difference in temp to raise pressures enough to get it to kick when hot out.

ETA: Interesting. I searched out some of his posts on shootersforum. Read post 16

https://www.shootersforum.com/wincheste ... -open.html
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

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Nath
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

superchicken wrote:I can flick the lever down from a locked position pretty easily with the tip of a pinky finger and I can just as easily push the locking block down from the top when it's locked up with pretty light pressure from a pinky finger. Muy scientific measurements there, eh? The locking block slides easily in it's grooves, but does't seem to have much if any wobble. Don't really know how to quantify that either. I ran a case in with a backed out primer and it seated it pretty well, so I don't think I have a headspace problem. If it's the friction stud, I think it's going to be a booger to get out. It looks like one end of the pin is mushroomed out a bit.

Thanks for giving this some thought.

Sean
Experienced this myself.
I found it was actually the lever holding the bolt in battery. The rising lug is doing very little!

My fix was to take a chain saw file and open the eye on the lever that the pin links it to the bolt.

Accuracy improved too.

N.
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superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Malamute wrote:What loads are you shooting in it?

William Iorg mentioned "lever kick" as one of the signs of getting close to max for a particular gun. Some of his guns/loads would kick some in summer and not in winter. Just enough difference in temp to raise pressures enough to get it to kick when hot out.

ETA: Interesting. I searched out some of his posts on shootersforum. Read post 16

https://www.shootersforum.com/wincheste ... -open.html
M-dog--I'm no hotrodder and have not even gotten to loading for this rifle yet. All factory loads so far, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's all she's ever eaten. Thanks for the link. It sounds like I am headed in the right direction if I can ever get the cussed friction stud pin out.
superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Nath wrote:
superchicken wrote:I can flick the lever down from a locked position pretty easily with the tip of a pinky finger and I can just as easily push the locking block down from the top when it's locked up with pretty light pressure from a pinky finger. Muy scientific measurements there, eh? The locking block slides easily in it's grooves, but does't seem to have much if any wobble. Don't really know how to quantify that either. I ran a case in with a backed out primer and it seated it pretty well, so I don't think I have a headspace problem. If it's the friction stud, I think it's going to be a booger to get out. It looks like one end of the pin is mushroomed out a bit.

Thanks for giving this some thought.

Sean
Experienced this myself.
I found it was actually the lever holding the bolt in battery. The rising lug is doing very little!

My fix was to take a chain saw file and open the eye on the lever that the pin links it to the bolt.

Accuracy improved too.

N.
Nath--If I am understanding what you are suggesting, it means that its actually the impact from the hand during recoil that's kicking the lever down. I think that's what Brad was suggesting too. It seems to me that JMB couldn't have designed this locking block to drop this easily. Like the discussion on Shooters forum, I am feeling the slap on the palm side of my fingers instead of the side of the middle finger where it would impact the lever bow. I'm going to try the friction stud first and then revisit your ideas if it doesn't work. I appreciate the suggestion and I always appreciate seeing your hunting pictures. They are a good reminder to folks that the best hunting you can do is the everyday sort instead of wasting your life dreaming of a great safari that may never happen. For that reason, I spend a lot more days afield every year with a shotgun than I do with a rifle. It may be harder to fill your freezer with little bitty quail, but it sure is fun chasing them.

Sean
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Malamute »

I believe what Nath is saying is the pin that the lever attaches to the bolt with is too snug, the bolt is transmitting force through that and the lever to your hand instead of the rear of the bolt against the locking bolt. He opened the hole in the lever that the pin goes through to give slightly more play, then the bolt can push against the locking bolt instead of the lever.

BTW, your 94 makes a great squirrel gun with the right loads. I really like round balls with 3 grs Unique. 6 1/2 grs Unique with a 115 gr cast bullet duplicates the factory 32-20 load. A bit more noise than the round ball load, which is similar to a 22 standard vel load.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

It's not the hand in recoil unlocking the action. Your hand or fingers are feeling the bolt set back to the raised lug but the lever is actually holding the bolt shut. Even standard head space will give a sharp impulse to the lever.
The lever only has to shuttle the bolt forward enough for rising lug to take over and finish lock up.
You honestly will not damage anything if you relieve the levers eye the cross pin in the bolt passes through. Just guess on about .010" at a time and try it and report back.

My last 94 shot tighter when I did this and the lever stopped opening from the slightest knock. The lug stayed up firm in battery to.

N.
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superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Ah, I get what you are saying now. I had the rifle sitting next to my desk... I work at home and currently have an office floor covered with two bird dogs, a huge pile of legos, and a 9 year old daughter building a lego mansion... I just pulled the pin and lever out on my desk. The pin seems to easily slide back and forth through the hole in the lever such that it will fall out if you are not holding it in place. I can wobble the pin around in the hole enough that the ends move about 0.005-0.010" or so. Do you think that is too tight or should I open it up?
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

It freely sliding disassembled is a false indicator as the second pivot point has been negated!
That pivot is fixed so if the distance between the two pivots centres is a fraction too long the lever itself will hold the bolt shut and not the rising lug.

There is a fine cross over point where the work of the lever is taken over by the lower receiver plate propelling the rising lug up to complete lock up.

Imagine/estimate what part of the lever eye is pushing on the pin when the action is closed and remove a bees whisker from there and try.

N.
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superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Nath,

I'm gonna need to think about that a bit before do anything about it. Maybe its the end of the day and my brain is melting, but I can't visualize how the lever could be imparting additional forward pressure. The breech and locking block should be sandwiching the bolt, shouldn't they? How much could the lever be pushing it forward if I don't have a headspace issue?

I really appreciate your suggestions on this and hope my questions are not terribly annoying.

Sean
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Griff »

I'm going to have check out that on my post '64 that has the lever knocked out of the receiver upon firing... Thank you Nath. If I understand it right, once the cartridge is fully in battery, there's still pressure against the lever, vs against the locking lug. IIRC, on this particular rifle, the bolt doesn't move any, even as the lug is raised all the way. The lever is tight, unlike others, where the lever can jiggle a little at full battery.
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Malamute »

In this cutaway image, what Nath is saying is the part No 14 (lever pin) shouldn't be the part exerting forward force against the bolt when fully closed. Makes sense.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

Yes and yes Griff and Malamute.

In Malamutes image the eye in part 14 needs a tiny amount of clearance at, in the image, between 12&6 o'clock.

Do not open the whole eye by drilling. Just use a IIRC 3/16 round file on the side mentioned.

Remember there is headspace ! All be it tiny it will be enough to kick the lever! I am not saying excessive headspace, normal headspace.

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superchicken
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Thanks, Nath. I took it apart again last night and I see what you are talking about. This morning I took a round chainsaw sharpening stone on a dremel and polished the hole, which opened it up a miniscule amount. I also tried again unsuccessfully to remove the friction stud pin after soaking it and using a map torch to heat it up. If that little booger is gonna come out someone else is going to have to do it. I don't trust my drill press skills on drilling out a 1/16" pin. I reassembled the gun and it seems to require a little more pressure to push the locking block down with my finger, but I can still do it. I want to shoot it again before going further, but she is going to have to wait. We are headed to AZ for 4-5 weeks starting this weekend, and I don't have space for another gun to go along that may not be functional. I'll try to remember to resurrect this thread and tell you how it works out when we get back.

Oh, and I thought about your Fox Whisperer skills last night. I had a gray fox calling out of my neighbor's yard about 11 pm. My older German wirehaired pointer was going ballistic, trying to get to him. That dog knocked down a young coyote at a dead run last week, but lost him before he could get a grip on him. He has a lot of fur drive in him and is a beast on upland birds and waterfowl too.

Sean
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

No problem and have a safe trip.

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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by superchicken »

Nath, Malamute, Griff,

I wanted to follow up with you all on this and tell you that Nath's suggestion of a slight filing of the lever pin hole seems to have fixed my problem of the block and lever dropping slightly when fired. I did the work on it earlier this summer before leaving for a six week work trip, so she sat untested for some time. I took her along with us on a camping trip this weekend. My wife and I put about 40 rounds through some stumps and had no issues what so ever. My wife said it may become her favorite.

Thanks again for the help.

Sean
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Nath »

superchicken wrote:Nath, Malamute, Griff,

I wanted to follow up with you all on this and tell you that Nath's suggestion of a slight filing of the lever pin hole seems to have fixed my problem of the block and lever dropping slightly when fired. I did the work on it earlier this summer before leaving for a six week work trip, so she sat untested for some time. I took her along with us on a camping trip this weekend. My wife and I put about 40 rounds through some stumps and had no issues what so ever. My wife said it may become her favorite.

Thanks again for the help.

Sean
Sean this is good news.
I had a 30/30 , my last one and it shot terrible.
I tried everything except this!

It was a year after I sold that carbine full of disappointment that I found for sale a cross bolt safety model for sale at a range so I went to try it, you see I had a late eighties model and it shot superbly.
Any how at the range this one I had high hopes for shot poor too and it was then that I noticed the lock up was as spongy as my last bad one!
A few years pass and I bump into a 357 legacy with just the same spongy lock up but I took a gamble and took it home.
I never tried it first, I simply got stuck in and freed the link pin from the lever at point of lock up and that rifle shot nearly every load stuffed in it!

No breach loader can ever have a third party influence on its locking mechanism.

It has been difficult to find someone to try this so thank you :D

N.
Last edited by Nath on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: need Win 94 help

Post by Griff »

Nath, thanks for bringing this back to the top. I hadn't seen the followup... now I'll have to do my 1970 gun!
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Re: need Win 94 help

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