.25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

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Bill in Oregon
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.25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Just heard from John Taylor Machine that my Marlin has been rebarreled, chambered to .25-35 Tomcat and is about to be shipped. Can't wait to put her all together and get her to the range. Only hitch is I need to order dies in this classic wildcat.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by 3leggedturtle »

Can't wait to hear a range report.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by AJMD429 »

I always thought it would be nice to have a Contender pistol in that round.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Ragnor »

I wonder where Francis Sell's ended up? He had a nice set up. Read his article about the use of curved butt plates for offhand shooting of his TomCat. Look forward to seeing your finished project.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Buck Elliott »

Francis Sell must be smiling...
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by .45colt »

In My sheltered life the Tomcat has remained hidden from Me. Anyone care to fill Me in about this round? I looked around on the internet a bit but not as much information about it as I would have thought. Bill, How much is John Taylor Machine charging for the conversion..? if you don't mind Me asking. I have a Marlin project gun in the wings. Jim.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by hfcable »

.45colt wrote:In My sheltered life the Tomcat has remained hidden from Me. Anyone care to fill Me in about this round? I looked around on the internet a bit but not as much information about it as I would have thought. Bill, How much is John Taylor Machine charging for the conversion..? if you don't mind Me asking. I have a Marlin project gun in the wings. Jim.
its the best of the 25/35 improved rounds, in my opinion.....makes it into a real smoker. have wanted to have one of these made myself.

congratulations. :mrgreen:
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Griff »

I'm dying in anticipation of the pictures that must certainly accompany the updates... :P
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by william iorg »

Looking forward to the shooting results.
Sell had a son if I remember correctly.
I agree this "mild Improvement" is the best of the Improved .25-35's. There were at least three Improved versions of the .25-35 pre-WII.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Fellas, John is charging me $500, which includes the barrel itself, fitting and chambering with my reamer and then a polish and blue. I think it's more than reasonable. He's taking $80 off that and keeping the reamer, so he will be set to turn out Tomcats for those interested.
Now here is an interesting twist. Friend Ray Atkinson in Filer, Idaho, is a dyed-in-the-wool .25-35 man, and he talked the South African firm GS Custom Bullets into making a monometal flat point in .257 weighing 90 grains. That's going to be a very interesting pill to play with in the Tomcat.
http://www.gscustomusa.com/products.html

Francis Sell died Nov. 25, 1993, in Coquille, Oregon, at the age of 91.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Sixgun »

I have his article on that buried somewhere in my 60 or so Gun Digests. ---6
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by sore shoulder »

As always, thread is useless without pics. :D
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I haven't gotten the barreled receiver back yet. I am now starting to think I should order nice wood with crescent butt from Treebone, have the receiver engraved in honor of Francis Sell and then have it color cased.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Sixgun »

John Taylor works cheap...or maybe "like it should be". He installed a new chamber sleeve in an old 86 extra lightweight in 45-90 I had that had a bulged chamber. The rifle shoots better now than it did before.

Bill...I found a mess of articles in old 1950's Gun Digests on Mr. Sell but I can't find anything on your cartridge. One thing for sure, he really liked the Model 71 Winchester and put the 336 Marlin above the 94 Winchester.----6
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Six, I have copies of Sell's Tomcat articles courtesy of our own William Iorg. He wrote it up in Rifle No. 83, September of 1982. Anyone interested can PM me their e-mails and I will send the scans.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Ragnor »

The 1984 Gun Digest pg 144 has an article on Francis Sell's Marlin rifle. Shooting Better With A Curved Rifle Buttplate. Good info on his stock dimensions not much on the cartridge. Hope this helps. :)
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by .45colt »

Thank the Lord I've been here for near sixteen years and have never been bored very long. Bill I'm sending You a P.M. Thank You. Jim.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Sixgun »

Thanks to Ragnor, I found something that is more closely related than what I found. I have all but the first two Gun Digests and I never bothered to look past around 1960 even though I have the Treasury Gun digests also.......yea.....any knowledgable gun range crank gets his knowledge from somewhere and I claim Gun Digests and about 200 other books I have floating around.

Here's 2 pics from Francis Sells article. I'm using an I Pad so I guess it can be blown up a bit. If it don't, well, your pelosi out of luck cause I'm done. :D ------the 6



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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by earlmck »

This looks like a most worthy project, Bill. I read the article Sixgun found, and also the the Rifle #83 article. I noticed that although there is a large picture of the rifle with a tang sight, by the time Mr. Sell got the pictures taken for the article he was using a receiver sight. And in the Rifle article he mentions that this is a Husqvarna bolt-action sight he adapted for the Marlin, but it would be pretty similar to a Skinner sight that mounts into the rear scope-mount holes I would think.

His load of 30 grains IMR 4064 and 117 grain Hornady might be a little warm: I ran it by QuickLoad and QL thinks that would run 50K psi and give 2617 fps. That's quite close to the 2585 fps that Sell obtained. QL suggests 28 grains 4064 would give a bit under 2500 fps at 42.5K psi. Or if you want the 2600 fps level with that 117 grain bullet you could use 36 grains Norma MRP. 33 grains of IMR 4831 or 31 grains RL 17 would go 2555 fps (all staying at the 42.5K psi level). This according to our friend QL.

Did anybody else notice how close in specifications Sell's rifle/cartridge (7 1/4 pounds loaded and .257/117 bullet at 2500 fps) is to a model 14 Remington in 25 Remington? With Lyman or Marbles M14 tang-ceiver sight, of course.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by william iorg »

You hit the nail pretty square when you recognized the similarity between the .25-35 Tomcat and the .25 Remington velocities. In the 1920’s and ‘30’s the .25-35 was commonly loaded with 100-grain bullets to 2,450 fps+ by J.R. Mattern, Townsend Whelen Paul Estey “The Greatest Handloader of all Time” J. Bushnell Smith.
Much of this loading was for single shot rifles used for varmint shooting. Smith and others loaded custom ammunition for deer hunters of the time and the 100-grain Western and Remington bullets were well thought of.
I have loaded the 100-grain bullets for the modern 20” barrel Model 94 Angle Eject Winchester to 2,550 fps and a bit over. Good loads for our West Texas Whitetail and smaller pigs.
I am not an expert on Francis Sell, simply an fan. Sell was very fond of Winchesters Model 64, 65 and 71. With these rifles discontinued and bringing high prices in his later years Sell wrote of the Marlin Model 94 in .25-20 and used the Model 336 for his Tomcat. Sell was fond of longer barrels for his Snap Shooting rifles and understood the need for hand filling forends on his hunting rifles.
Sell wrote quite a bit of good information on the use of iron sights. Sell and a few others developed the Cascade Snap Shooter which is a compact receiver sight designed for the hunter who will set the sight for his hunting load and leave it alone for the season. The sight was not necessarily a new idea with him and has been copied in principle and is offered today.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Thanks for the load data thoughts, Earl. That Quickload software is mighty useful.
William, appreciate the view of that rear sight.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Sixgun »

Earl,
I like that 14 in 25 Rem. I've only seen maybe two in all of my days.....can I have it? Please? :D ---6
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by piller »

I am unfamiliar with the .25-35. What velocity are you expecting to get out of it?

I can see how a .257 bullet of around 90 grains could be a nice small game bullet if the velocity were somewhere in the 1,900 to 2,500 fps range. One does not always need to use large or heavy bullets. If you match the bullet to the intended purpose, you usually have a lot of fun and get whatever you are trying to accomplish done with minimum fuss.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Piller, Winchester rates the factory load with 117-grain RN bullet at 2230 fps. The Tomcat should give more than 2500. The 90-grain monometal would like punch through an elk at 2800.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by .45colt »

Bill sent Me the Excellent Article by Mr. Sell on the Tomcat. really refreshing to read some old school stuff by someone who actually had a lot of experience. I kept looking around and it turns out that CH4D is in Mount Vernon Ohio where My Daughter lives. I e-mailed the owner yesterday about dies for the Tomcat and He replied that they have them in stock. :shock: . I of course sent Bill the information just like any enabler would. :D .https://www.ch4d.com/
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Jim, I just confirmed that with Dave at CH-4D. He also stocks the .360 Nitro Express No. 2 dies I need for my Ruger No. 1 project. Where'd I put that MasterCard ...


:oops:
8)
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Just got off the horn with Dave, and had forgotten what a talker he is. First he started quizzing me about the Tomcat, wondering if someone had just written a new article on it as he had a sudden burst of interest in the dies. Ended up talking about holding Georg Luger's personal Luger in the Enfield Lock Pattern Room whilst on a trip to the U.K. collecting original Kynoch cartridge drawings.
:lol:
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by .45colt »

I had planned to send My beater Marlin to Jess to have it bored out to 38-55, since it's legal to hunt deer with in Ohio now. But the Tomcat has my interest as I wanted a 25-35 in a bad way about 10 years ago. the Tomcat may be even better . 8) .
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by .45colt »

Bill, sent You a P.M. :) .
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Fellas, I still need to have sights put on the Marlin, and plan to restock it and have the receiver reblued, but just for fun, here is a .25-35 Tomcat case next to a .25-35. Quite a difference. I think it will give a nice kick in the pants to that 117-grain Hornady RN.

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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by BenT »

Here is a bad photo of a 25-35 case, 25-35 case blown out in a 25 Rem die and 25 Rem case.

Image

I had a 25 Rem in a Model 14 with a bad bore that would not shoot. So I had the 25 Rem dies and though of reaming out a 25-35 barrel to 25 Rem and having a 25 Rem Rimmed.

I blew out the 25-35 brass to 25 Rem to see if it would split at the shoulder like it can do with the 25-35 AI. It did not split. I am not sure what the water capacity difference would be between the 25 Rem and 25 Tomcat.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by earlmck »

BenT wrote: I am not sure what the water capacity difference would be between the 25 Rem and 25 Tomcat.
Interesting question Ben. I looked at these in "QuickLoad" and QL says 38 grains level-full H2O for the regular 25/35, 41 grains for the Tomcat, 43 grains for the 25 Remington, and 45.5 for the 25/35AI. But looking at Bill's picture, his Tomcat is just as straight as a 25 Remington, case the same length and diameter, and the Tomcat shoulder is blown forward just a bit. So I would say QL would be wrong; the Tomcat should have a scosh more capacity than the 25 Rem.

I just broke down a factory 25 Remington (That friend Bill gave me a while back). Headstamp is REM-UMC; 121 grain RN bullet, 26.6 grains of what appears to me to be 3031. 42.6 grains water-full. Dang, I need to put these on target and chronograph them: I'd forgot they were there until I was looking for a case to fill with water.

OK Bill, when you have fully-formed Tomcat brass, tell us what the water-full capacity really is. Just to satisfy our little curiosity...
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by BenT »

My notes show water capacity that I weighted of these cases.

25-35 36.4 gr
25 REM 43 gr
250 SAV 46.5 gr
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by william iorg »

My drawing shows the Tomcat with 41.8 grains of water to the case mouth and with a bullet seated to the bottom of the neck – a rough .441” deep I show 36.0 grains of water. Pretty close using two different math programs.

Here is a picture of a form line of .25-35AI from .30-30. Down to the final fire form load which will snap the shoulder out sharp.

.25-35 Tomcat
Image

25-35AI form line
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Rusty »

BenT wrote:My notes show water capacity that I weighted of these cases.

25-35 36.4 gr
25 REM 43 gr
250 SAV 46.5 gr


Thanks Ben, I've been watching from the sidelines and wondering where the .250 Savage would fall in all of this.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by yooper2 »

Very cool project! Can't wait to see it all put together.


Regarding John Taylor,
The man does great work at more than reasonable prices. He's also up for the weird jobs and is a cast bullet nut. Wonderful person to work with.


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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by cshold »

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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by william iorg »

Here are a few Sell books and magazine articles the Levergunner might find interesting. I remember “Discovering” Francis Sell and Vernon E. MeGee as a teenager and thinking These Guys Really Know Small Game Hunting.
Anyway, Sell makes for easy reading.

Sell Books:
The American Deer Hunter 1950
Advanced Deer Hunting on Deer and Elk Trails 1954
Small Game Hunting 1955
The Deer Hunters Guide Stackpole 1964
The Art of Sucessful Deer Hunting 1971
Taking the Shot when the game is up close Gun Digest 1997


Sell Magazine articles:
When A Deer is Wonded American Rifleman October 1941
Snap Shooting Rifles American Rifleman September 1943
Squirrel and Deer Rifle American Rifleman June 1944
Woodcraft For Riflemen American Rifleman October 1946
Rifle For A Woodsloafer American Rifleman March 1947
Brush Shooting American Rifleman November 1948

Tomcat articles:
A Custom Deer Rifle American Rifleman May 1978
Rifle, .25-35 Tomcat September 1982
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by BenT »

American Deer Hunter, Small game Hunting and Advanced Deer Hunting are great books and are worth getting. They are books that you will reread from time to time.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by 3leggedturtle »

In the 1995 Gun Digest. Francis Sell and an article titled, Coming to terms with the 25/20.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Sent some walnut I had stashed for a Ruger No. 1 build to George at Treebone to turn to his "Semi-crescent Early Ballard" style stock.
Thinking of having the receiver engraved with "Sell, Donnelly, Ackley .25-35 Tomcat" by Jerry Huddleston, then off to Wyoming Armory in Cody for color-case hardening.
I've never had a fancy levergun.

8)
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by hfcable »

Bill in Oregon wrote:Sent some walnut I had stashed for a Ruger No. 1 build to George at Treebone to turn to his "Semi-crescent Early Ballard" style stock.
Thinking of having the receiver engraved with "Sell, Donnelly, Ackley .25-35 Tomcat" by Jerry Huddleston, then off to Wyoming Armory in Cody for color-case hardening.
I've never had a fancy levergun.

8)

that sounds spectacular! you deserve it [ said the enabler ] :D
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Thank you Harold!
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Mainehunter »

Up to hunting camp and a bunch of started talking about the 25-35 Tomcat. Any updates?

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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Wow. Found this thread while looking for .25-35 Tomcat data. I apologize for not responding sooner. Life got in the way -- you know, divorces, moves, surgery, getting old.
I just measured the water capacity of a once-fired/fireformed WW .25-35 case and it was 45 grains on the nose, if anyone cares.
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by yooper2 »

Funny, I was thinking about this project the other day. I hope you are able to get back to it at some point, otherwise I may have to make a rash financial decision to satisfy my curiosity.


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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by william iorg »

earlmck wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:43 am This looks like a most worthy project, Bill. I read the article Sixgun found, and also the the Rifle #83 article. I noticed that although there is a large picture of the rifle with a tang sight, by the time Mr. Sell got the pictures taken for the article he was using a receiver sight. And in the Rifle article he mentions that this is a Husqvarna bolt-action sight he adapted for the Marlin, but it would be pretty similar to a Skinner sight that mounts into the rear scope-mount holes I would think.

His load of 30 grains IMR 4064 and 117 grain Hornady might be a little warm: I ran it by QuickLoad and QL thinks that would run 50K psi and give 2617 fps. That's quite close to the 2585 fps that Sell obtained. QL suggests 28 grains 4064 would give a bit under 2500 fps at 42.5K psi. Or if you want the 2600 fps level with that 117 grain bullet you could use 36 grains Norma MRP. 33 grains of IMR 4831 or 31 grains RL 17 would go 2555 fps (all staying at the 42.5K psi level). This according to our friend QL.

Did anybody else notice how close in specifications Sell's rifle/cartridge (7 1/4 pounds loaded and .257/117 bullet at 2500 fps) is to a model 14 Remington in 25 Remington? With Lyman or Marbles M14 tang-ceiver sight, of course.25Rem.jpg
One thing for certain. We are simply reinventing the 1920's .25-35 and .25 Remington.
J. R. Mattern, Paul Estey and Townsend Whelen along with a few writers to the American Rifleman's Dope Bag of the time wrote of the 100 grain bullet in either cartridge driven to 2,500 fps - I am assuming they were using 22" or 26"barrels in the 1920's.
With modern powders and rifles velocities above 2,500 fps with the 100 grain bullet is easily obtained in the 20" barrel standard .25-35 rifle.
With the 117 grain round nose bullet in the 24" TC barrel the standard .25-35 will just break the 2,600 fps barrier using 27.5 grains of Hodgdon 335.
In the 20" barrel .25-35 the 117 grain bullet reaches practical maximum for me at 2,350 to 2,360 fps using Alliant Reloder 10x, Reloder 15, or IMR 4320.

The .25-35 Ackley Improved is another story. The 24" barrel .25-35AI will push the 117 grain bullet right past 2,600 fps with no strain using IMR 4895,, 4320 or 4350 and Alliant Reloder 15.

I amvery anxious to see how the Tomcat works out.
Slim
harry
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by harry »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:07 pm Wow. Found this thread while looking for .25-35 Tomcat data. I apologize for not responding sooner. Life got in the way -- you know, divorces, moves, surgery, getting old.
I just measured the water capacity of a once-fired/fireformed WW .25-35 case and it was 45 grains on the nose, if anyone cares.
Soooooo where are the pictures of the rifle
Trump 2024

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Bill in Oregon
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Harry, it's the one with the scope. Serial is E 34X and the original .30-30 barrel was still marked Model 36. Unfortunately the waffle top receiver had already been drilled and tapped so I used it for the donor. John Taylor fitted the barrel and used a Manson reamer to chamber it. The other rifle is a 1951 336-A in .35 Remington with the wrong butt stock on it.

Imagefullsizeoutput_11a7 by ComeWatson, on Flickr

William, going back through my downloads, I found the original article you sent me that Francis Sell wrote on this wildcat in Rifle No. 83, September-October 1982. His favorite load seems to have been 30 grains of 4064 under the Hornady 117-grain roundnose, giving fine accuracy and 2,585 fps at 42,000 pounds of estimated pressure. I will look for more current data.
3leggedturtle
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Re: .25-35 Tomcat is nearly finished

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I aint got a bucket list, but if'n I did a 24" 336 would be on it.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
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