Loading the .380 "for bear"

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:48 am

I know "heavy" and .380 don't normally go together, but I have seen a number of threads in Google searching the topic about guys loading with 110-115-grain cast bullets with large meplat with potent results. I have found myself fascinated by the new Browning 1911-380, an am thinking this might be just the platform for tweaking the 9mm Kurz. Anyone out there gone down this path? TedH, I know you are loading that sweet little Lee.
P.S. I am not suggesting putting the .380 to use against bears.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:55 am

You could use it to hold up some hunter and take his .44 magnum. As for bears, can you say suiside?

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:06 am

The .380 is a puzzling cartridge to me. The size of the little pea shooter in relationship to what it does in surprising. I have on at least four occasions now bought and let go of various guns in .380. My last gun I bought is a Sig 238. I have owned a beautiful old Colt .380 from the 1920`s, a Browning, a Walther and now the Sig. I never carried them a lot. The Sig I do carry periodically. Think I bought it because it looked cute and small and had about a $100s knocked off on a fathers day sale at Ace two years ago. I do have apprehensions about carrying it "Cocked and Locked" in my pocket.
I just haven't got used to it yet. They have a very stiff hard trigger. The thing is, there are .9mm`s out there that are almost as small to pack.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:19 pm

I wouldn't try to push the Browning too hard in hot .380 loads.
Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:37 pm

If you're looking for the mythical one shot stop, go ahead and reserve your burial plot. With my mouse gun EDCs, I fully expect to have to empty them. The LCP, and two spare mags are so dainty that I can't tell they are spread out over my leather MC vest. I'm not implying that this is superior to holstering a Duty-sized piece, it's just what I've gone with. YMMV

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:03 pm

Dunno....never been a fan of the .380 but one came my way a year ago or so and the little bullets made me think "weak". So........I got to playing with different loads and after reading an old Lyman manual I decided on the following.

Figured the bullet is the same diameter so I just did what guys do with the 45 Long Colt....use a bigger bullet. I load the 124 gr. TC bullet that I cast for my other nines.....the Uzi loves it.

The Ruger LCP likes it to but I do get a failure to feed sometimes but experimentation will solve that....I just have not had the desire to invest what little play time I have to solve it. The little Ruger really barks with the 124 grain.

In the pic is a loaded 9mm then a loaded.380. The 124 gr. TC is next and the last is the little 85 grainer that is supposed to be in the .380-----6

jcw · Post by **jcw** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:28 pm

Be an interesting project for the 9X18 Makarov.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:13 pm

.22 LR and .22 Magnum have taken a train load of bear over the years by people who know how to shoot, so your .380 might just be overkill.

.Just don't tell the "USE ENOUGH GUN CROWD".

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:53 pm

Get'cha one of these, and just shoot LOTS of regular loads...

M_389TS_pink.jpg

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... -patterns/

Surely somebody makes a 100-round drum for it...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:02 pm

My little Glock eats up that Ranch Dog 380 bullet that I cast. It weighs 103 gr. cast from wheel weights, and I get 1000 fps from them and maintain good accuracy, about 3-4 inches at 25 yards. The big flat meplat does make a good wound channel too. Not as large as a HP, but it's decent, and has much better penetration than a HP. Plenty good for a pocket pistol, and it plows right through 12" of 10% gelatin covered with 2 layers of denim.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:12 am

I really want to say, friends don't let friends carry a .380ACP, but I now have so many older friends carrying that round and shooting it well that I just keep my big mouth shut...I think SIX and others are right, a heavy bullet is the way to go... :)

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:49 am

Bill,
I've read my share of posts about various defensive handguns in one caliber or other that say something like - "It's a great gun - I've carried it for years and am quite happy with it."

The trouble is, the posters don't say anything about having to use their pet caliber for anything more serious than target practice!

Well, I'm one of those guys. I loved my little Heckler and Koch HK4 kit gun. It was designed to allow you to change magazines and barrels for a .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP and .380 ACP, and (I believe) the first ever nylon (or some type of tough plastic) and steel handgun. It looked very much like a PPK. It was extremely easy to fire accurately and quickly at close handgun ranges, and my wife learned to fire a handgun with deadly accuracy using my piece. Alas, you can't find them anymore.

OK - it was accurate, but it never had to speak to anyone except a target. It was terrific as a hideout gun and worked flawlessly, until the extractor spring gave out. Then, no gunsmith in two counties, nor Numrich Arms or Brownells nor Heckler and Koch could find a replacement spring, since this pistol was discontinued. So who really knows how effective it was?

Recently, the subject of a .380 has come up again, with some friends, so I did a little research. The Bersa Firestorm (the only Bersa that is "legal" here) was the subject of the discussion - a real gem of a gun at a bargain price - but hard to find.

It seems, the research suggested, that the SuperVel .380 hollowpoints that I used to carry had little more real world effect on an attacker than just firing a regular full metal jacket round in that caliber. Expansion prevented adequate penetration which is a factor with that abbreviated 9mm round. On balance, a practiced shooter can drop several onto the target quite quickly, owing to the extremely low recoil.

Recent research produced articles that give the nod to some commercial loads, I think it was by Buffalo Bore and Corbon, crafted specifically for your shorter (3-4 inch) barrel .380 pistol.

For serious defense work with that marginal caliber I would absolutely stay with a good factory load; but if I had to use a handload I'd opt for a heavier bullet with respectable velocity and meplat as espoused by Sixgun (one of his loads) or TedH.

If you Google something like "Best .380 rounds" you will come across some good material by creditable testers. Even the little .380 has come a long way in effectiveness from its humble origins.

Then again, we now have tiny powerhouses like the Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9mm that handles the situation even better - if you can find one on the dealers' shelves. These little numbers are selling like hotcakes here in California, since they are "legal" and sport the 7 and 8 round magazine and weigh only 20 ounces - and are amazingly accurate. I've fired one out to a range of 25 yards. The sights and trigger pull were better than I expected in such a small (and rather inexpensive) handgun, and even with my ol' eyes I shot respectable groups. Four folks I know ended up purchasing and carrying this little pistol within the last year.

As for having several, ahem, well seasoned friends, I'm in that group. Those four people mentioned are all over 60; one is a healthy 82 year old; all qualified with it for certification for a CCW. It is a bit snappy, and you can't limp-wrist it or it will jam; but with the proper hold it seems to like anything you can stuff into it.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:13 am

The little Browning 1911-380 is probably not the best pistol in that caliber to try hot rodding. With its polymer frame and 17 oz weight, it would take more of a beating than it was designed to handle.

I love the one I have. It shoots great, without a hitch or bobble, right out of the box. The 4 1/4" barrel is ideal - IMHO - for the little cartridge.. It feeds flawlessly with Winchester FMJ flat point, Blazer Brass FMJ round nose, and Hornady JHP ammo.

Semi-autos don't have the strength and durability of a heavy single-action revolver. I fully expect my Browning to outlast me, but see no practical reason to abuse it..

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:23 am

the only .380 that I would be loading for bear, would have a few more numbers! like 38-55!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:10 am

I carry the FMJ FP in the Ruger LCP.

In water jug penetration tests it goes as far as the 9mm Gold Dots I carry in my XD Sub Compact.

OTOH, the XD-SC holds as much ammo as two LCPs....

I think the Shield is close to the same physical size as the XD, which is not nearly as compact or concealable as the LCP.

I am interested in the heavier bullets but I wonder if they would abuse the LCP and should be reserved for steel guns?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:05 pm

Grizz wrote: I think the Shield is close to the same physical size as the XD, which is not nearly as compact or concealable as the LCP.

You are correct. I have no experience with the Ruger LCP, and only the .380 is available in California.
Comparative Specs of the other pistols:
XD Subcompact vs. S&W Shield
Width - 1.20" / .95"
Length - 6.25" / 6.1
Weight, loaded - 26 oz. / 24 oz.
Then, there is the matter of more ammo in the pistol. For something like high concealment, like shirt tucked in and an ankle holster, weight and size becomes very important.

retmech · Post by **retmech** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:26 pm

The big advantage of the Ruger LCP and the gun it was copied from, the Keltec P3AT is their small size and the fact that they are true "pocket guns". At 11 and 12 oz. fully loaded and roughly 3/4" thick they disappear in your pocket and as a result lend themselves to being with you everywhere all the time. Both are very reliable and the Ranchdog RNFP 100 gr. bullet will do an honest 900 fps out of either one. In my mind the most important thing in regards to carrying a gun is having it with you ALL the time and those guns let you easily accomplish that. No handgun is a lightning bolt, whatever you carry practice and make sure you can shoot it under pressure.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:14 pm

retmech wrote:The big advantage of the Ruger LCP...

That seems like a good evaluation of this neat little gun.

My interest, finally, has been in the 9mm due to current events, and a recent topic that was in a thread here, relating to being "loaded for bear" as it applies to the loonies who follow radical Islam's stated mandates. More specifically, there is the potential problem of some loony tune taking out innocent citizens in public places. My preferred carry is still a 1911 .45 with Federal HST hollowpoints.

But certain venues, such as church services in the summer, require one to wear light clothing and a tucked in shirt, or else one is conspicuous and therefore an immediate target. A .45 ACP in a very small gun poses problems: Weight, slower follow-up shots due to recoil, capacity.

I have never been a 9mm fan, but we know that bullet configuration and powders have improved considerably since its introduction in 1902. Modern 9mm ammo, if delivered accurately, seems to be a good way to deliver a relatively hard hitting payload with sufficient penetration to accomplish its purpose. Accuracy is even more important if we are re-thinking where we might have to use a firearm, such as in a hall or room with others present. I recently reassessed my accuracy using my snubbie .38 at 25 yards and decided that it was not satisfactory at that distance. The slightly longer barrel, configuration, trigger pull and sights of several compact 9mm and a couple of .380 pistols proved better.

If one decides upon an ankle holster, the firearm must be sufficiently small and light enough to carry, perhaps in an ankle holster. So my preferred .45 ACP caliber is out - weight and capacity, recoil that inhibits quick follow-ups are problems as mentioned above.

In fact I have put my money where my mouth is. I am finishing the required 10 day waiting period to pick up my S&W 9mm Shield; I have purchased the Federal HST 147 grain standard pressure round at a claimed 1,000 fps.

My practice ammo will be standard 147 grain FMJ's (whether factory or handload rounds) that achieve the same muzzle velocity - whatever is cheap but reliably consistent.

Based not upon "I've carried it and I like it," and certainly not on the looks of this rather squarish shooter, but rather law enforcement independent research I have followed on the excellent HST ammo and various published penetration tests for the 9mm rounds, and from my three impressive range sessions with the S&W Shield 9mm, I am sure that this is the best combination for my high concealment self-defense needs. It's not as concealable as the LCP. For a mini-9, I think it takes the highest honors.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:29 pm

I'll admit that little Browning is somewhat dainty, but it does fire from a swinging-link locked breech just like the 1911. I would think it a bit sturdier than blowbacks, but I am no gun designer.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:06 pm

Bill, that HST brand has apparently now come out with a GREAT round for the .380 as well.
Here's the YouTube link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhByLwyvGpA

I should have posted this for the 9's, not meaning to change the thread, but as a similar consideration to the .380 for a good self-defense loading:
HST Wound Ballistic Workshop_PierceCounty.pdf, now offline, from my archives -
https://app.box.com/s/j7nm91l7m7dq9jhrfjz495r3r7zejqdp

Newer review -
http://www.handgunsmag.com/reviews/big- ... mo-review/

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:21 pm

Deleted.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Deleted.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:27 pm

Locked breech on the Browning is not the only consideration.
Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:55 pm

I carry the FMJ FP in the Ruger LCP.

In water jug penetration tests it goes as far as the 9mm Gold Dots I carry in my XD Sub Compact.

IMO, the problem is that "close is only for horseshoes, and hand grenades" Unless you drill the heart, I'd rather have expansion, and a larger wound cavity so that if I'm only close to the heart, or central nervous center, perhaps I'll get more of an effect. With .45acp fmj, I don't worry about that. It's pretty disruptive on it's own. I'll offer the Stop & Rob shooting down the street from me as exhibit "1"...The shop owner was shot with a .380 FMJ, in the shoulder, and walked to the bus....

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:09 am

The shop owner was shot with a .380 FMJ, in the shoulder, and walked to the bus....

Your 45 would still leave the guy walking to the bus....

If I ever (God forbid) have to shoot someone I will shoot for the throat to eyeball oval.

I generally hit what I shoot at. And I want penetration to sever spine or medula.

I know of a couple of murders with LCPs. One in Seattle where the perp shot a man for his cell phone. Bullet went thru sternum and severed the spine.

I fervently hope I never have to test this out on 2-leg beasts.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:28 am

Looks like that Lehigh all-copper slug as loaded by Lehigh and Underwood is the go-to for personal defense with a .380.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:45 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Looks like that Lehigh all-copper slug as loaded by Lehigh and Underwood is the go-to for personal defense with a .380.

That is an exciting new concept, and I've been following it. But bear in mind that it does not have a perfectly round bullet. That may not prove a problem with feeding. But please double check the link I provided -
https://app.box.com/s/j7nm91l7m7dq9jhrfjz495r3r7zejqdp
- for a completely unbiased test by several law enforcement agency officers, not by the manufacturers or gun mag writers who are frequently wooed and hosted by the folks that they cover in the periodicals.

I don't see results of exhaustive tests, yet, on the Lehigh type bullet that comes close to the variety of tests performed on the Federal HST rounds in competition with others, as with the above described multi-agency tests.

Several identical range tests were done all over the United States with the Federal HST bullets, and they consistently bested the much vaunted Gold Dot (FBI's baby) in overall performance - penetration, expansion and weight retention after being fired into various mediums, including automobile glass (a very tough test).

The HST products have been so effective that they were was sold exclusively to law enforcement, although you can now purchase it from a few sources. I purchase it from Streichers.

Warning - you pay the same price for a box of 20 from several sources that you can pay for 50 at Streichers, without knowing it. Unscrupulous as it is, several major online suppliers advertise a box price, and when you get it, you have a small box of 20 cartridges. It happened to me.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:52 pm

John, the HST looks like a great choice for 9mm and above.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:03 pm

Grizz wrote:
The shop owner was shot with a .380 FMJ, in the shoulder, and walked to the bus....
Your 45 would still leave the guy walking to the bus....

On contact with bone, the jacket would prolly separate, and rip a hole out the back.

If I ever (God forbid) have to shoot someone I will shoot for the throat to eyeball oval.

I generally hit what I shoot at. And I want penetration to sever spine or medula.

I know of a couple of murders with LCPs. One in Seattle where the perp shot a man for his cell phone. Bullet went thru sternum and severed the spine.

I fervently hope I never have to test this out on 2-leg beasts.

I can only say I hope you can get those bad guys to stand still for the throat shot, and that when you accidently miss that moving target that no innocents behind the BG are shot. As I've said before, with a mouse gun, I fully intend on emptying the mag, or, on the collapse of the BG....

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:41 pm

Deleted.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:05 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:I'll admit that little Browning is somewhat dainty, but it does fire from a swinging-link locked breech just like the 1911. I would think it a bit sturdier than blowbacks, but I am no gun designer.

The Browning features a solid, slotted cam in the under-barrel lug, not a swinging link like the full-sized 1911..

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:18 am

Buck, you are right. Finally found a shot of the gun field stripped.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:22 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:John, the HST looks like a great choice for 9mm and above.

Well... yer right. I heard the intro on the YouTube video and he was talking about not bothering to look any further with the HST brand now offering .380's - but I watched the whole thing today. It doesn't cut the mustard for .380.

Surprise - he recommended, with the Custom Hornady HTP's - your Lehigh selection! This guy employs a legitimate test protocols with the properly calibrated ballistic gel, so it looks like you found a great choice for the little .380.

The test below (YouTube, using ballistic gel) shows the Lehigh and Underwood bullet proofs. The Underwood is reportedly 200 fps faster and creates a larger wound channel, but its 24 inch penetration is a bit much, I would think. The Lehigh's penetration and apparent performance falls right within the FBI recommendations. Both do as they should with denim and thin metal barriers, as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40

PROVISOS:
From Lehigh's site:
PRODUCT DISCLAIMER

Due to the unique design of our XP bullets we advise all customers to purchase one box of ammunition to confirm the ammo will cycle in your handgun.

We have tested the ammo in several of the top selling 380’s and our findings have been recorded on several videos located on our YouTube Channel and documented on our website. However, all handguns produced do have minor differences and these differences may or may not affect the performance of your handgun with our 380 XP Ammo.

The 380 Auto handguns listed below cycled our ammunition without failure:

GLOCK 42 – SECOND GENERATION
SIG 232
SMITH AND WESSON BODY GUARD
KELTEC
RUGER LCP
AMT 380

So - there is that fit factor - will it work perfectly in your pistol? If so, it looks like this could be an ideal .380 defense choice. Even if a ramp job by a competent gunsmith was indicated, that would be a small price to pay for an outstanding mini-pistol defense solution.

Here's your new defense round for the LCP, Grizz.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:46 pm

OOOPS, posted twice.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:46 pm

I have the Sig P238, it is my all-the-time carry gun, Galco pocket holster works fine, even fits in my Wrangler front pocket , I can get it into action pretty quickly. I am fully aware that I will probably have to use all 6 rounds , that's fine, they will work far better than the .45ACP rounds in the 1911 that's in the truck because it's too heavy and hard to conceal. I consider it an "across-the-card-table" gun and don't intend to take any long shots with it.

The Sig is a "real gun", no plastic parts, I have over 500 rounds of both factory and reloads without a hiccup.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:52 pm

Well, I just brought home the test bed 1911 .380 -- popped $110 extra for upgraded grips and three-dot sights that I can actually see. Ordered brass and dies and a box of the Lehigh Penetrators. Be interesting to see how the little dude performs. I think it is priced a little high, but the fact that it works like a 1911 and can safely be carried in Condition 1 makes it feel at home in my mitts. I rate comfort, muscle memory and confidence with a handgun pretty highly.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:19 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Well, I just brought home the test bed 1911 .380 ...it works like a 1911 and can safely be carried in Condition 1... I rate comfort, muscle memory and confidence with a handgun pretty highly.

That sure makes sense to me!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:20 pm

http://magguts.com/

I have not personally tried these....They add a round to your stock mag....That would be 7+1 in the LCP, and a couple of 7 round mags in my pocket....I might try one.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:22 pm

Like Grizz I'm partial to the WalMart Winchester white box FMJFP. I've seen several tests on that bullet and it out penetrates everything else it was compared to like the Corbon etc. For a little pocket pipsqueak designed for punching distances I want penetration.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:42 am

Size comparison with LCP:

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:50 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Size comparison with LCP:

That's real nice. Probably more civilized to shoot than the LCP. I don't like shooting mine. Sucker draws blood on the top of trigger finger after a few dozen rounds. There's always that Action/Reaction penalty for small centerfire shooters....

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:03 am

Yes the little bugger is surprisingly snappy to shoot.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:15 pm

I'll be doing some limited testing in 5 small .380 pocket pistols in two or three weeks, if scheduling allows, with Black Hills' new "cross-tipped" 60-grain Extreme Defense.

No expansion needed, should produce a good mix of tissue disruption and penetration with those cutting "vanes".

I don't mess with gel, but it'll be interesting to see how it compares & recovers through water jugs.
Feeding will also be an area of interest.

I won't reload for any .380, but I do on occasion carry one.
Denis

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:43 am

Denis,
Can you get a few of those LeHighs - the ones with the corkscrewish bullet? That would also be interesting.