1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
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- Levergunner
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1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Fellas, I have this 1904 made Winchester rifle, an 1894 model, with a "nickel steel" barrel. I am new to these old rifles. I had some questions, if any of you has any information or suggestions.
The barrel is marked nickel steel. I read somewhere I no longer remember that the receivers/frames were also made of the same metal once it was introduced for barrels. I do not think that is right, but alas, I don't know one way or t'other. Is that correct?
The barrel has a solid, black, finish intact, with some freckling. The trigger levers and hammer also have a good solid black finish on them. The receiver/frame is pretty ugly. Very little finish, and what looks to be blood stains or really rusty thumb print on it, and it seems varnish or something brushed on it near where the buttstock mounts up.
I would like to do something to make it more visually appealing. I had thought to maybe get some Hoppes or something and 0000 steel wool and lightly go over the receiver to remove the brush strokes and blood stains or blotches which have a brownish color. In the best of all worlds, I would refinish it, but if it is nickel steel, I understand it won't take a finish worth a darn.
I am somewhat concerned of collector's value, but as it is, it isn't very visually appealing at all.
Due to ignorance, there may be many other approaches or other factors I hadn't considered. So I'm open to suggestions.
Here's a photo of the left hand of the frame to better illustrate what I'm up against here.
The barrel is marked nickel steel. I read somewhere I no longer remember that the receivers/frames were also made of the same metal once it was introduced for barrels. I do not think that is right, but alas, I don't know one way or t'other. Is that correct?
The barrel has a solid, black, finish intact, with some freckling. The trigger levers and hammer also have a good solid black finish on them. The receiver/frame is pretty ugly. Very little finish, and what looks to be blood stains or really rusty thumb print on it, and it seems varnish or something brushed on it near where the buttstock mounts up.
I would like to do something to make it more visually appealing. I had thought to maybe get some Hoppes or something and 0000 steel wool and lightly go over the receiver to remove the brush strokes and blood stains or blotches which have a brownish color. In the best of all worlds, I would refinish it, but if it is nickel steel, I understand it won't take a finish worth a darn.
I am somewhat concerned of collector's value, but as it is, it isn't very visually appealing at all.
Due to ignorance, there may be many other approaches or other factors I hadn't considered. So I'm open to suggestions.
Here's a photo of the left hand of the frame to better illustrate what I'm up against here.
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
That one photo tells me the tale -- don't refinish anything! Of course, it is your rifle to do with as you please, but the double set trigger screams "special order" 1894, and the collector value is substantial -- and will only go down if you refinish it.
Now, as to nickel steel and it's suitability for refinishing. I don't know what type of steel the receiver is, but it'll refinish fine. The refinishing difficulty you have heard about has to do with rifles built after 1964 for a period, which had sintered-metal receivers. These had to be plated and then finished, and when the original finish wears off the metal does not take bluing well.
Again, aware that you can certainly do as you wish, I would urge you not to refinish. Clean it up well, then preserve a fine antique and learn to enjoy the patina of a well-used-and-maintained oldtimer, or sell it, buy what you want with the proceeds, and leave this one for the enjoyment of those who appreciate such things.
Now, as to nickel steel and it's suitability for refinishing. I don't know what type of steel the receiver is, but it'll refinish fine. The refinishing difficulty you have heard about has to do with rifles built after 1964 for a period, which had sintered-metal receivers. These had to be plated and then finished, and when the original finish wears off the metal does not take bluing well.
Again, aware that you can certainly do as you wish, I would urge you not to refinish. Clean it up well, then preserve a fine antique and learn to enjoy the patina of a well-used-and-maintained oldtimer, or sell it, buy what you want with the proceeds, and leave this one for the enjoyment of those who appreciate such things.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Please don't even use the re-f word around that rifle. Does it have the octagon barrel? Anyway it's a treasure that deserves whatever TLC you can give it without over cleaning it. I'm sure it has considerable collector value so don't polish away that patina with steel wool. Removing the extra varnish would be a plus but nothing more.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
I'm not positive, but I believe the differential receiver finish wear or aging on earlier guns was due to the forging process. Ive seen a LOT of older guns with pretty decent blue everywhere but the receiver. Many of the early guns also have lengthwise lines in the receivers. Many think its scratches, but its not. I'm not positive on this either, but I believe its a result of the forging dies, and think it may partly be the result of oxidation over time. Ive seen brand new condition guns in the Winchester museum that had the lines in the receivers.
I don't recall hearing of different metal in the early receivers, but am happy to be educated on the matter, or any details addressed above.
I don't recall hearing of different metal in the early receivers, but am happy to be educated on the matter, or any details addressed above.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
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Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
I agree with the above posters. Clean it gently, shoot it wisely if you want, but do not alter it or even consider restoring it. At this point restoration would not only destroy it's collector value, but it's history.
Joe
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
.
Model 1894 receivers made in the early 1900's (about from SN 500,000 to SN 1,200,000) had a high nickel content, and were problematic in retaining the original factory finish (aka: flaking).
The bluing process used by Winchester was referred to (called) "browning", with the finishing area of the factory referred to as the "Browning Room".
The bluing process is actually the same as "browning" - for "browning", the receiver wasn't carded (rubbed) with steel wool between coats of the chemical solution, as "bluing" was carded.
- either way, the rifle's value would suffer seriously, moving from "collector" status to "shooter" status (at least a 50% reduction in value) if the finish is disturbed.
There was also a VERY rare (and VERY valuable), original factory finish, referred to as "browning", instead of bluing
The receiver of your rifle might have been browned (very rare/valuable), or has simply developed that brown patina - the only way to know for sure would be to obtain a Cody Letter for the rifle.
The very fact that your rifle has at least one "Special Order" feature indicates that other Special Order features (like receiver browning ILO bluing) might be present.
In any event, before doing anything else, I would suggest you only oil the metal parts, and obtain a Cody letter for the rifle.
.
Model 1894 receivers made in the early 1900's (about from SN 500,000 to SN 1,200,000) had a high nickel content, and were problematic in retaining the original factory finish (aka: flaking).
The bluing process used by Winchester was referred to (called) "browning", with the finishing area of the factory referred to as the "Browning Room".
The bluing process is actually the same as "browning" - for "browning", the receiver wasn't carded (rubbed) with steel wool between coats of the chemical solution, as "bluing" was carded.
- either way, the rifle's value would suffer seriously, moving from "collector" status to "shooter" status (at least a 50% reduction in value) if the finish is disturbed.
There was also a VERY rare (and VERY valuable), original factory finish, referred to as "browning", instead of bluing
The receiver of your rifle might have been browned (very rare/valuable), or has simply developed that brown patina - the only way to know for sure would be to obtain a Cody Letter for the rifle.
The very fact that your rifle has at least one "Special Order" feature indicates that other Special Order features (like receiver browning ILO bluing) might be present.
In any event, before doing anything else, I would suggest you only oil the metal parts, and obtain a Cody letter for the rifle.
.
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Forgot to address the stock finish on the receiver. Ive seen it many times. People put some sort of finish on the wood without removing it from the metal. You may get lucky and dissolve it with something, or you may end up causing more problems by altering the finish in ways that detract from the value. Your gun actually has quite a lot of interesting character as is.stubbicatt wrote:Fellas, I have this 1904 made Winchester rifle, an 1894 model, with a "nickel steel" barrel. I am new to these old rifles. I had some questions, if any of you has any information or suggestions.
The barrel is marked nickel steel. I read somewhere I no longer remember that the receivers/frames were also made of the same metal once it was introduced for barrels. I do not think that is right, but alas, I don't know one way or t'other. Is that correct?
The barrel has a solid, black, finish intact, with some freckling. The trigger levers and hammer also have a good solid black finish on them. The receiver/frame is pretty ugly. Very little finish, and what looks to be blood stains or really rusty thumb print on it, and it seems varnish or something brushed on it near where the buttstock mounts up.
I would like to do something to make it more visually appealing. I had thought to maybe get some Hoppes or something and 0000 steel wool and lightly go over the receiver to remove the brush strokes and blood stains or blotches which have a brownish color. In the best of all worlds, I would refinish it, but if it is nickel steel, I understand it won't take a finish worth a darn.
I am somewhat concerned of collector's value, but as it is, it isn't very visually appealing at all.
Due to ignorance, there may be many other approaches or other factors I hadn't considered. So I'm open to suggestions.
Here's a photo of the left hand of the frame to better illustrate what I'm up against here.
If wanting a basic shooter grade gun instead of one that you may reduce the value of by doing anything with it, they can be found for fair prices if you look a while. I've found several guns that were mainly parts guns (as in missing most parts other than barrel and receiver with silvered out receiver and decent blue on the barrel, or the stock thrashed on etc, and a bare complete receiver) that cleaned up and fixed up into shooters without much expense or drama. Parts guns that were rebuilt into shooters are also around, and one doesn't need to be too worried about using them.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
- ollogger
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
That gun has a lot of appeal to it as you found out, I for one would like to see more photos of
your great gun & to see what it shoots
Brad
your great gun & to see what it shoots
Brad
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
If you want to clean up the stains... (where its "character" comes from), use [*]bronze wool. At least 0000, Do NOT touch it with steel wool. Bronze wool will take off surface rust and stains, but will leave what finish there is, there. Go easy, use a light oil as a lubricant and wash to remove what you do remove.
The fellars above are right, that's a significant rifle. Double set triggers are about THE most rare of special order items. What's the rest of rifle like... Pictures, please!
The fellars above are right, that's a significant rifle. Double set triggers are about THE most rare of special order items. What's the rest of rifle like... Pictures, please!
Griff,
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Stubbycatt,
My guess is that your age is under 40.....probably under 30 where that age group wants everything "nice and fresh".
Do what the boys above have rightfully suggested......that's a desirable rifle you have there. Refinishing your rifle would be like putting those stupid looking ghetto wheels and tires on a '32 Ford coupe.-----6
My guess is that your age is under 40.....probably under 30 where that age group wants everything "nice and fresh".
Do what the boys above have rightfully suggested......that's a desirable rifle you have there. Refinishing your rifle would be like putting those stupid looking ghetto wheels and tires on a '32 Ford coupe.-----6
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Beautiful old rifle.
Bob
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
As you have noticed, the Drool rag is out. Not many 94's wear two triggers.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Thanks for the input fellas. Even if all I could remove were those brush strokes, I would feel better about it. I'll try to get the brush strokes with a cotton towel and Hoppes -- the bottle says it might remove stock finishes... If no joy, I'll rethink it a little bit.
The rifle has a pretty long octagonal barrel, 30WCF chambering, and 3 leaf express sights, which I removed so as to better use a tang sight. -Not to worry the express sights are in a plastic sandwich bag in the gun safe, so they can be readily reinstalled. I simply cannot see the sights at all if I use those express sights. Bore condition is not very good, but it shoots pretty good.
I bought the rifle for lever action silhouette shooting. It is surprisingly accurate given its bore condition using RCBS 180 grain bullets and 15 grains of IMR 4227. It now sports a MVA tang sight which is of exceptionally high quality. I had been using my 1904 Winchester High Wall schuetzen rifle with forked butt removed for this game, and fixed ammunition, but someone pointed out that it had been rebarreled and was therefore not eligible for the game where the rules require an original barrel. (Dumb rule if you ask me).
Sorry about photo quality. Taken with mobile phone. --It's what I have.
The rifle has a pretty long octagonal barrel, 30WCF chambering, and 3 leaf express sights, which I removed so as to better use a tang sight. -Not to worry the express sights are in a plastic sandwich bag in the gun safe, so they can be readily reinstalled. I simply cannot see the sights at all if I use those express sights. Bore condition is not very good, but it shoots pretty good.
I bought the rifle for lever action silhouette shooting. It is surprisingly accurate given its bore condition using RCBS 180 grain bullets and 15 grains of IMR 4227. It now sports a MVA tang sight which is of exceptionally high quality. I had been using my 1904 Winchester High Wall schuetzen rifle with forked butt removed for this game, and fixed ammunition, but someone pointed out that it had been rebarreled and was therefore not eligible for the game where the rules require an original barrel. (Dumb rule if you ask me).
Sorry about photo quality. Taken with mobile phone. --It's what I have.
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Very, very nice.
I didn't see it mentioned above, but what is the barrel length? it may be the photo, but it looks as though it may be a bit longer than standard. The set-trigger makes me wonder as many times with a special order feature there is more than just the one. If it's just a couple over standard (26"), this will greatly add to the value and rarity.
As mentioned by others, I would resist the temptation to mess with it. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing. If you must, remove the wood and work painfully slow with Kroil and 0000 bronze wool.
Many of my old Winchesters look like yours. A trick i use is to take them out and shoot them. Something about the outdoors makes them look better, and shooting it will make you see it in a completely different way.
You got a cool rifle. Enjoy it.
I didn't see it mentioned above, but what is the barrel length? it may be the photo, but it looks as though it may be a bit longer than standard. The set-trigger makes me wonder as many times with a special order feature there is more than just the one. If it's just a couple over standard (26"), this will greatly add to the value and rarity.
As mentioned by others, I would resist the temptation to mess with it. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing. If you must, remove the wood and work painfully slow with Kroil and 0000 bronze wool.
Many of my old Winchesters look like yours. A trick i use is to take them out and shoot them. Something about the outdoors makes them look better, and shooting it will make you see it in a completely different way.
You got a cool rifle. Enjoy it.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Using a tape measure, from the front of the receiver ring to the muzzle, the barrel is approximately 25 ⅜ inches.
Kroil is mentioned frequently. I had a can of it years ago, but used it all up and haven't replaced it. I'll go to Ace and see if they have one for sale there. You reckon that's a better idea than a gun solvent such as Hoppes or the like?
Kroil is mentioned frequently. I had a can of it years ago, but used it all up and haven't replaced it. I'll go to Ace and see if they have one for sale there. You reckon that's a better idea than a gun solvent such as Hoppes or the like?
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
My eyes must have been playing tricks, that's a standard 26" barrel. The measurement is taken from behind the ring, at the breach.
Haha, Kroil is the best..........the best.
If you have a good bore and a good clean crown with little muzzle wear, that thing should shoot like mad.
That is how I judge a rifle, not so much by the finish. If it was real minty, you'd be less likely to really enjoy it for what it was made for.
We WILL need a range report.
Haha, Kroil is the best..........the best.
If you have a good bore and a good clean crown with little muzzle wear, that thing should shoot like mad.
That is how I judge a rifle, not so much by the finish. If it was real minty, you'd be less likely to really enjoy it for what it was made for.
We WILL need a range report.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Nice old rifle.
If you want to upgrade the bore simply for the sake of the shooting part, one can often find some of the commemorative models made in the late 60-s on. The common ones like Canadian Centennials or Buffalo Bill rifles with 26" octagon barrels can be had for around $600 NIB or a bit less for used ones. The can be drilled and tapped for tang sights pretty easily.
Ive had a couple old guns with bores that didn't look very good but still shot pretty well. One improved noticeably with a muzzle recrown.
Youre a regular on THR aren't you?
If you want to upgrade the bore simply for the sake of the shooting part, one can often find some of the commemorative models made in the late 60-s on. The common ones like Canadian Centennials or Buffalo Bill rifles with 26" octagon barrels can be had for around $600 NIB or a bit less for used ones. The can be drilled and tapped for tang sights pretty easily.
Ive had a couple old guns with bores that didn't look very good but still shot pretty well. One improved noticeably with a muzzle recrown.
Youre a regular on THR aren't you?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
I would've thought the single shot wasn't legal for Lever Action Silhouette on the face of it. My understanding was that replacement barrels are acceptable if they're of a factory profile. My local club has their rifle caliber shoots on a day that I never seem to be able to make it, as my favored rifle, that has a VERY heavy profile, but would take my "project" parts gun, a mid 1970s receiver with a 1994 Commemorative ½round/½octagon barrel on it.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
.
Besides the set triggers, the 34C 3-leaf express sight is a valuable (today) factory option/Special Order, in it's own right - and (being pricey) hard to find.
.
Besides the set triggers, the 34C 3-leaf express sight is a valuable (today) factory option/Special Order, in it's own right - and (being pricey) hard to find.
.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
According to my sources, for the first 360,000 Model 94's, for which records are available, there are 5,153 rifles with double set triggers.
stubbycat, follow Old Win.'s advice with the Kroil.-----6
stubbycat, follow Old Win.'s advice with the Kroil.-----6
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
delete. oops.
Last edited by stubbicatt on Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
You know Griff, one of these days I'll just have to break down and read the rules. I know at the club a lot of guys shoot single shots, so long as they have an exposed hammer I've been told, and a lever action. They break the scores down into two classifications, the magazine rifle and the single shot, for purposes of scoring. I much prefer my high wall, as for some reason it just clicks with me. But I suspect this one will be fine. I'm just there for the fun of it anyways, and haven't won anything yet.Griff wrote:I would've thought the single shot wasn't legal for Lever Action Silhouette on the face of it. My understanding was that replacement barrels are acceptable if they're of a factory profile. My local club has their rifle caliber shoots on a day that I never seem to be able to make it, as my favored rifle, that has a VERY heavy profile, but would take my "project" parts gun, a mid 1970s receiver with a 1994 Commemorative ½round/½octagon barrel on it.
Malamute, I've been posting over at THR for quite a little while I think. Lately my interests have shifted, and I still go by there regularly, but don't really post all that much. I've just gotten old all of a sudden, and a lot slower.
Regards,
Stubb
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
Yep. Especially regarding the bronze wool. Brownells sells it cheap.Griff wrote:If you want to clean up the stains... (where its "character" comes from), use [*]bronze wool. At least 0000, Do NOT touch it with steel wool. Bronze wool will take off surface rust and stains, but will leave what finish there is, there. Go easy, use a light oil as a lubricant and wash to remove what you do remove.
The fellars above are right, that's a significant rifle. Double set triggers are about THE most rare of special order items. What's the rest of rifle like... Pictures, please!
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools ... d7391.aspx
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- vancelw
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
I thought the 3 leaf express was the most common of all rear sights on the early 1894s??? It's what is on my 1906 version that is as common as they come. I may have mis-read PirklePete44ru wrote:.
Besides the set triggers, the 34C 3-leaf express sight is a valuable (today) factory option/Special Order, in it's own right - and (being pricey) hard to find.
.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
That rifle is beautiful, don't touch it.
I have an 1892 from 1904 that is partially covered in... something. Paint? Tar? I don't know what it is, it reminds me of the black stuff they refinished Enfield's with. But it's been there a very very long time and as wrong as it is, it looks like it belongs there now. Learn to appreciate that rifle for it's beauty.
I have an 1892 from 1904 that is partially covered in... something. Paint? Tar? I don't know what it is, it reminds me of the black stuff they refinished Enfield's with. But it's been there a very very long time and as wrong as it is, it looks like it belongs there now. Learn to appreciate that rifle for it's beauty.
Slow is just slow.
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Re: 1904 vintage Winchester 1894 rifle finish questions
C'mon jack! I bought my 1894 WCF and 1886 40-65 before I was 30! And also that '70 Mach 1 on the left.......Sixgun wrote:Stubbycatt,
My guess is that your age is under 40.....probably under 30 where that age group wants everything "nice and fresh".
Do what the boys above have rightfully suggested......that's a desirable rifle you have there. Refinishing your rifle would be like putting those stupid looking ghetto wheels and tires on a '32 Ford coupe.-----6
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...