9mm v. 45acp: Let The Melee Begin

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:15 pm

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-sh ... lly-matter

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:19 pm

If you can't handle the recoil of a .45, shoot a 9mm.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:10 pm

Deleted.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:15 pm

Griff wrote:If you can't handle the recoil of a .45, shoot a 9mm.

Ah, but what load? What firearm? My LCP 380 is a vicious, snappy little beast, and the 1911 barely moves me around.

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:52 pm

Go with whatever sinks your boat the fastest?

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:29 pm

Carry what you like, but you very rarely hear someone fresh out of a gunfight say "Gee, I wish I'd had a small round with less ammo on board."

I was raised on the 45 but I like more capacity so I go with the 40 mostly.

Cat

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:42 pm

I will still put my money on the 45acp vs the 9mm, based on conversations with ex cops I know, who have actually seen the elephant, and commented about it.

I have seen the 9mm with hollowpoints kill small to medium animals up to the size of a large dog with a fair amount of authority. I have seen larger caliber guns do better, on larger animals. I have dispatched quite a few cattle over the years with an assortment of calibers, and frankly I have been disappointed with the nine, and personally, when it comes to handguns, I have seen the 10mm do much better then the 9mm and the 45acp being somewhere in the middle, but didn't really see the 44 mag preform any better to speak of then the 10mm. But it would probably take a much larger group of kills to draw any really solid conclusions other then, I think the heavier larger caliber bullets at moderate speed kill better then smaller lighter bullets traveling at moderate speed assuming bullet design was similar.

The bigger calibers don't have to rely on trick bullets as much as the nine does. But if one is going to miss a lot, then maybe the added magazine capacity of the wonder 9, makes some sense. I have a few nines, but usually reserve them for the smaller guns, and usually choose the 45 or 10mm as of late.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:39 pm

I EDC my LCP .380, but around the house, and when in the field, the .45acp is Holy....I'm expecting a new 9mm Range Officer, but it's for plinking.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:54 pm

Catshooter wrote:Carry what you like, but you very rarely hear someone fresh out of a gunfight say "Gee, I wish I'd had a small round with less ammo on board."

I was raised on the 45 but I like more capacity so I go with the 40 mostly.

That is why I like the double-stack 1911 format. More comfortable grip than a regular 1911, and 15-16 rounds of 45 ACP is lots of capacity. The grip on my P-14 1911 is only something like 3/16" more circumference versus my single-stack Colt 1911, and far more comfortable anyway.

With the double-stack 45 option, why compromise....?

Or if I want to shrink to 'Officers Model' size, I can drop down to a P-12, for a 'mere' 12+1 capacity, still in 45 ACP.

If I have to go smaller yet, the Sig P-938 holds only 7 rounds of 9mm, but is very compact and easy to hit with. Controls are the same as a 1911. There are double-stack smallish 9mm's out there but they are close enough to 'Officer Model' size that it isn't worth the step-down in power.

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:56 pm

You can use my father's method. Take one and hit yourself in the head with it. Now do the same with the other. Which one hurt more?

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:38 am

9mm vs .45 arguments are almost always based on gun-counter mythology, junkyard testing, and ammo/gun company marketing.

There was a time when all we had was arguments based on the above. Those were the days when a guy could be excused for thinking that 9mm zipped right through a guy without slowing him down, while .45 ACP picked him up and deposited him on his back ten feet back.

Now we have decades of research on terminal ballistics based on things like compilations of thousands of coroner reports, etc. Real world data is at our fingertips, and there is no reason to continue to push mythology.

But real-world data is boring and does not sell advertising, so every couple months, someone else has to do some "real-world tests" to prove one thing or the other, depending on what advertisers want to see most, or what their particular belief is. So they go out and shoot a few rounds through home car doors, windshields, gelatin blocks, denim and pork ribs, whatever will get some more circulation or clicks and sell some more advertising. And then everyone debates the whole thing all over again. There needs to be no argument.

Recoil: I'm sorry, I don't think recoil on a .45 ACP is too bad, not much more than 9mm in most pistols. The idea that someone who can't handle recoil on a .45 should drop down to a .40 is puzzling to me. Has anyone advising this ever shot a .40 and a .45 side by side? I have always found the recoil of a .40 S&W much more abrupt than a similar .45 ACP. Arguing about the difference in recoil between .45 and 9mm or any other similar cartridges is a wasted effort in my opinion. The only way to discuss recoil is as it is related to a particular pistol.

Terminal Ballistics:
If we put everything that we want to believe or that Uncle Bob told us about shooting the Hun or the Nip or the Gook out of our mind; if we give up the arguments that make us feel more manly, we have to recognize that the results of real shootings have proven one thing very clearly (forget military use, there are totally different issues involved with that).

If you have any reasonable caliber between 9mm and .45 ACP, and are using any good HP ammo, the effect on a human will be basically the same. This has been proven.

If you are shooting a caliber like .380, 9x18, etc., or drop down to .32 ACP, there is a definite drop in effectiveness, but we do have better ammo now for these calibers, the biggest issue is penetration, so FMJs might still be the best choice.

If you are shooting a caliber like .44 Mag or .454, well . . .

Barrier Penetration:
9mm gives you better barrier penetration than .45 ACP in most cases. 357 SIG or .357 Mag gives better penetration yet. I understand that no one will believe this. I was talking to a guy at SHOT Show and I thought he was going to hit me - he got so mad when I said that. I have watched .45 ACP stop on the sheet metal of a car door. I have watched 9mm penetrate the same door and hit the passenger side door from the inside. I have watched 357 SIG zip through both doors and whack the berm behind.

Overpenetration:
Don't worry about it. It isn't a problem. Everyone spends so much time worrying about killing someone behind the target because of over penetration, but what they should worry about is missing the target. That is what kills bystanders. A pistol cartridge that averages 16" of penetration, if the bullet fully penetrates a body and exits, will not likely have enough velocity left to do any serious damage to a bystander.

So, what should you carry? Carry whatever you want. If it is a quality pistol that you shoot well in a caliber that makes you happy, then carry it. If you think a Glock is ugly and you can't stand the feel of the thing, then ignore everyone who says it is the only pistol to carry and carry something you like. If you think a 1911 is too complicated and you don't like spending all the time it takes to clean one, then buy a Glock. If all you can afford is a Hi Point, then skip a few trips to Burger King and save your welfare checks for a used quality pistol.

If you like the low cost of 9mm ammo and the ability to carry more rounds, then get a 9mm. You won't be under-gunned, and you can likely shoot slightly faster with accuracy than you can with a .45, and more rounds in a target are more effective than bigger bullets. You shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, which generally means as long as the guy is on his feet. In realistic self-defense drills, it is not uncommon to see a shooter put 5 or 6 rounds in a target that starts dropping with the first shot.

If you feel that you aren't a man unless you carry a .45, or you can't get past believing in gun-counter folklore, or you just like the .45, the history of the cartridge, enjoy shooting it, happen to like 1911s because you shoot them well or because you love the look, design, history, romance, whatever, then carry a .45 and don't let anyone tell you you are wrong for not carrying a 9mm.

Get what you want, what you like, and what you shoot well. Match it to your specific needs. But don't worry about the caliber so much, or what anyone else carries, or what anyone says you need to carry - carry what YOU like best. And spend you time and energy learning to fight with it better.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:21 am

Deleted.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:25 am

Get what you want, what you like, and what you shoot well. Match it to your specific needs. But don't worry about the caliber so much, or what anyone else carries, or what anyone says you need to carry - carry what YOU like best. And spend you time and energy learning to fight with it better.

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.
I'd fear a guy with a 22 LR revolver who's put 10,000 rounds through it more than a guy who has only put one magazine through his Custom Combat Ultra Elite Tactical WonderGun.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:44 am

What 7.62 said!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:05 am

One thing I've seen firing 230 fmj (the cheaper, the better) into a couple gallon plastic jugs of water is that the jacket usually comes off, and it's razor sharp and would no doubt make a pretty good wound.
A few days ago, a Kwiki Mart owner was shot thru the shoulder with .380 during a robbery attempt. She had her own handgun, but didn't get to shoot first, so her shot went wild. That little FMJ round made a little hole in and out, and didn't slow her down a bit. Walked to the bus. With my LCP, I practice with White Box FMJ, but carry JHPs. With the extra two small mags, I leave the house with 19 rounds, and the whole kit weighs less than a loaded Glock 30. (If I were not lazy, I'd pack the G30, but it's so much easier just to slip on my MC vest.)

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:09 pm

I think any of the Premium bullets in the "9mm and up" calibers would make me feel pretty comfortable in a gun I could shoot well. I don't currently have a 40, but I do routinely carry a 380, 9mm, or a 45. From the information in the article, the 357 Sig makes pretty good sense to me, with good wound channels, and good capacity. However, my handloaded Hornady 124 gr. XTP load with Blue Dot exceeds the listed velocity of the 357 Sig ammo. It's a book load, yes it's a max load, but it's a published load and it shoots very well in my 92. If given a choice when walking into a gunfight, I'd probably take the 16 rounds of 9mm over 11 rounds of 45 acp.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:46 pm

The debate will never be settled, it would hurt the "Carry gun/ Most 1 shot stop ammo of the month club". It's the same BS that your 30-30 will bounce off a bear, the 30-06 is too light for Africa, the squirrel you shot with a .22LR will come back to life and eat you, when it learns of .17 Super Magnum, and you need a 3 1/2 12 gauge with a super duper extra foolist choke to get your turkey. That's why we are blessed with so many guns, cause the one we got can't do it anymore. You need to buy a..............

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:58 pm

7.62, I hope you realize, my comment was strictly in light of the title of the topic. Being the 1st respondent, I'd hoped to set a tone... See if we could get some liberal responses... those that rely strictly on emotions, nothing bearing on facts!!!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:02 pm

TedH wrote:I think any of the Premium bullets in the "9mm and up" calibers would make me feel pretty comfortable in a gun I could shoot well. I don't currently have a 40, but I do routinely carry a 380, 9mm, or a 45. From the information in the article, the 357 Sig makes pretty good sense to me, with good wound channels, and good capacity. However, my handloaded Hornady 124 gr. XTP load with Blue Dot exceeds the listed velocity of the 357 Sig ammo. It's a book load, yes it's a max load, but it's a published load and it shoots very well in my 92. If given a choice when walking into a gunfight, I'd probably take the 16 rounds of 9mm over 11 rounds of 45 acp.

Same size, same weight, a hair faster. What's not to like?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:03 pm

Griff wrote:7.62, I hope you realize, my comment was strictly in light of the title of the topic. Being the 1st respondent, I'd hoped to set a tone... See if we could get some liberal responses... those that rely strictly on emotions, nothing bearing on facts!!!

We detected your tone.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:10 pm

I value physics. Mass is my friend.
I cannot 100% guarantee shot placement. I value big holes.
I value capacity. My magazines are extended.
If I need velocity, I simply choose a lighter bullet.
I carry a .45

When I got my first pistols, I went from 9mm to 45acp. Neither proved uncomfortable for long shooting sessions. Every once in a while I try my friend's .40. I hate it. It has all the snap of a 9mm and all muzzle flip of a .45. It's the worst of both worlds in my opinion; at least as a pistol. I think it would have value in a carbine format, however. I might get a sub2k in .40 for that reason.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:14 pm

9mm rules...in my part of the planet many LE Agencies, including mine, are transitioning over to the 9mm. There are many factors and reason to the WHY--but for me, it's all about shot placement...we have some who qualify better with a 9mm than they did with the .40... :) :)

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:35 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:9mm vs .45 arguments are almost always based on gun-counter mythology, junkyard testing, and ammo/gun company marketing.

...Now we have decades of research on terminal ballistics based on things like compilations of thousands of coroner reports, etc. Real world data is at our fingertips, and there is no reason to continue to push mythology...

In my mythology, a permanent wound-channel created by a .452" projectile is bigger than a permanent wound-channel created by a .357" projectile and, therefore, facilitates a more speedy exsanguination, and (15 > 7).

You either want bigger holes, or you'll need to make more of them.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:29 am

Panzercat wrote:I value physics. Mass is my friend.
I cannot 100% guarantee shot placement. I value big holes.
I value capacity. My magazines are extended.
If I need velocity, I simply choose a lighter bullet.
I carry a .45

When I got my first pistols, I went from 9mm to 45acp. Neither proved uncomfortable for long shooting sessions. Every once in a while I try my friend's .40. I hate it. It has all the snap of a 9mm and all muzzle flip of a .45. It's the worst of both worlds in my opinion; at least as a pistol. I think it would have value in a carbine format, however. I might get a sub2k in .40 for that reason.

This.

All penetration being equal, a bigger permanent hole with more mass making it equals "mo'bettah".

And as to .45s I am just the opposite of Doc when it comes to "grip comfort". A 1911 with ultra-slim scales points and shoots far more naturally than a double stack. But I don't have long probing doctor fingers...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:48 am

Griff wrote:If you can't handle the recoil of a .45, shoot a 9mm.

I can shoot a pistol grip 12ga with magnum loads one handed repeatedly with no side effects. For a combat pistol I would choose a 9mm over a .45 every time. I am not alone. By unanimous request MARSOC recently allowed their operators to carry G19's which they prefer over their brand new "high speed" fancy 1911's. It has nothing to do with recoil, and everything to do with choosing the better tool.

And if I want more power, a 10mm makes .45acp look silly.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:57 am

And if I want more power, a 10mm makes .45acp look silly.

Maybe for bear hunting.
Following that line of logic is: .45acp makes a 9mm look silly, and a 45-70 is silly compared to a modern round? Right?

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:03 am

For or Chevy? I'm not an expert by any means and I've been reading this "discussion" for years and, basically, my opinion is who cares? A whole bunch of bad guys have been dispatched by both of these calibers, some relatively quick, some took a while to meet Jesus. I read one article (with "facts"from LEOs) about "one stop shots" and percentages and all rounds from .380 to 45 ACP the "one shot stop percentages" were very close. Too close to make much difference if any.

I have decided to carry which gun I like best. I really like my Ruger P90, which happens to be 45 ACP, and I can shoot it well. I also like my new Ruger LCPs-Pro, which is 9mm, and I can shoot it well. I believe I read some wise old sage say "bad guys aren't made of jello", so unless I read, or witnesses a "Hatcher style" test, I'll carry which feels the best at the time...

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:40 am

Jello tests and reality don't always coincide. Jello is a specific set of conditions. What folks seem to forget is that there are ever changing variable conditions in life. Personally I know the .45acp works. I can't make the same claim about the other rounds m

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:04 pm

BlaineG wrote:
And if I want more power, a 10mm makes .45acp look silly.
Maybe for bear hunting.
Following that line of logic is: .45acp makes a 9mm look silly, and a 45-70 is silly compared to a modern round? Right?

Not really. The difference between a +p+ 9mm and .45acp is insignificant compared to the difference between .45acp and 10mm. And that's not counting the advantage of more rounds with the 10mm.

If you can't handle the recoil of real 10mm, shoot .45. : D

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:15 pm

jeepnik wrote:Jello tests and reality don't always coincide. Jello is a specific set of conditions. What folks seem to forget is that there are ever changing variable conditions in life. Personally I know the .45acp works. I can't make the same claim about the other rounds m

I used to think .45 was a magic bullet, till I emptied a 1911 with fmj into the chest of a large determined dog and had to reload and take a couple head shots to finish it. It is something that sticks with me unfavorably to this day. I've shot several animals with .45 hardball and the same results. I recall a discussion here where several of our fellows had the same experience in a thread I started on the subject. I agree jello is just one medium and simply an indicator of a certain aspect of performance. However, the FBI made the decision to go with 9mm after many decades of compiled real world forensics were examined. It's hard to give up pre-existing ideas. My decision was easy after seeing real world results.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:23 pm

cas wrote:You can use my father's method. Take one and hit yourself in the head with it. Now do the same with the other. Which one hurt more?

Tried it. Both hurt the same. Argument settled.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:13 pm

Meh, show me the jello shot of the 200gr AshCan at 950fps and I'll get interested.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:04 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
jeepnik wrote:Jello tests and reality don't always coincide. Jello is a specific set of conditions. What folks seem to forget is that there are ever changing variable conditions in life. Personally I know the .45acp works. I can't make the same claim about the other rounds m
I used to think .45 was a magic bullet, till I emptied a 1911 with fmj into the chest of a large determined dog and had to reload and take a couple head shots to finish it. It is something that sticks with me unfavorably to this day. I've shot several animals with .45 hardball and the same results. I recall a discussion here where several of our fellows had the same experience in a thread I started on the subject. I agree jello is just one medium and simply an indicator of a certain aspect of performance. However, the FBI made the decision to go with 9mm after many decades of compiled real world forensics were examined. It's hard to give up pre-existing ideas. My decision was easy after seeing real world results.

My experience was with 230 gr FMJ. It worked. But that was GI issue ammo. No one in their right mind would use FMJ unless it was mandated by a higher authority.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:11 pm

jeepnik wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
jeepnik wrote:Jello tests and reality don't always coincide. Jello is a specific set of conditions. What folks seem to forget is that there are ever changing variable conditions in life. Personally I know the .45acp works. I can't make the same claim about the other rounds m
I used to think .45 was a magic bullet, till I emptied a 1911 with fmj into the chest of a large determined dog and had to reload and take a couple head shots to finish it. It is something that sticks with me unfavorably to this day. I've shot several animals with .45 hardball and the same results. I recall a discussion here where several of our fellows had the same experience in a thread I started on the subject. I agree jello is just one medium and simply an indicator of a certain aspect of performance. However, the FBI made the decision to go with 9mm after many decades of compiled real world forensics were examined. It's hard to give up pre-existing ideas. My decision was easy after seeing real world results.
My experience was with 230 gr FMJ. It worked. But that was GI issue ammo. No one in their right mind would use FMJ unless it was mandated by a higher authority.

I have never been a fan of 230gr hardball, but if I was to have to carry hardball then I would hands-down choose 45 cal over 9mm.
And I don't like the cone shaped solids of the 40 caliber much either. I have read a lot of the modern day reports and that the FBI is going back to 9mm, and with the premium ammo available, I don't doubt that the 9mm will do the job.

For me it gun related. Between a Glock 19 in 9mm and a 23 in 40 caliber, my choice will be the 19 in 9mm, because I never could shoot the 23 all that well, but move up to a Glock 22 in 40 vs the 17 in 9mm then I tend to like the 22 slighty better in 40 caliber, but maybe it's a toss up, assuming premium ammo is available for both. But I like the 40 better in that size gun and I carry a Glock 22 quite a bit in an inside the pants holster, and keep one in my truck. I am sorry but I have more faith in the bigger bullets in the top of my magazine over relying on the few extra bullets of the 9mm in the bottom of my magazine baling me out of a jam in the case of the 22 vs the 17.

But still yet my favorite carry gun is the Colt Lightweight Commander in 45, because I shoot it better, it's got a great trigger, it's slim and easy to carry and fast to get in operation. I don't worry to much about the smaller magazine capacity, but I do carry reloads which are also slim and easy to carry.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:25 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:...But still yet my favorite carry gun is the Colt Lightweight Commander in 45, because I shoot it better, it's got a great trigger, it's slim and easy to carry and fast to get in operation. I don't worry to much about the smaller magazine capacity, but I do carry reloads which are also slim and easy to carry.

This. +1

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:13 pm

I chuckle all the time when folks talk about how this or that dept or agency chose a 9mm over a 45ACP. There are a varied number of reasons that choice is made. Some related to capacity, some related to politics, and some... just plain old pandering to the lowest common denominator... not a lick of good ballistic sense. Just the same reasons as departments stuck with .38Spl revolvers far beyond the proof that were far, far better options.

I'm sure that my data is somewhat dated... as I left the part-time pistol coaching and training at the academy many years ago. But... we kept special ammo so that some of the smaller ladies... (& men), could qualify. While we carried .38SP+P as our duty ammo, we shot plain old 158gr lead for qualifying. And some of our students couldn't. It certainly didn't improve when we went to the 92F Beretta. And while I could shoot perfect scores with .38+Ps, 9mm & 230 ball in a .45ACP from a 1911; VERY few others could. In fact, with my normal carry Colt CC and 200gr HPs, I dropped a few points off perfect. (As an aside, I couldn't shoot perfect scores with the 92F, but I could with a Walther P38. I really looked forward to the Remington P7.

The same reasoning as when various departments started dropping their physical requirements from 5'10" down into the low 5' range. When almost half of a recruit class of 5'10"-6'2" males couldn't qualify with a .38spl, does anyone wonder why the emphasis became capacity over accuracy? Add in actual statistics of street combat under high stress for folks with no such prior experience... it's abundantly clear to this guy why.

I'm not advocating that someone change their choice based on my choice. Half, or better of any gunfight is confidence; in your own ability, your ammo, your gun and faith that those will see you through. If you have all of those in a .22 Davis derringer, you certainly have a LOT more faith than I do...

I'm like OI, I don't shoot my son's 2011 as well as I do my 1911... like the 92F, the ergonomics are wrong. I'm certain their right for others. I don't feel the need to justify the 200HPs in a .452, just as I don't think anyone really needs to justify the performance of 9mm 147s, as examples. When my son & I shot our qualifying for CHLs, he out-shot me with a borrowed Glock something or other, in a 9mm. But, from 25 yards those tiny GI sights are getting mighty hard to see at 60+! (The difference was 2 points).

One last point. The 1911 is the only pistol in the history of US Army trials to pass without a failure... TWICE.

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:12 pm

So they (FBI and others) are saying that the best performing ammo you can buy in 9mm is as good as 40 or 45. Very recently I have read articles stating how hard it is to make 9mm ammo that will pass the FBI protocols. I guess finally the developers have caught up to what the 40 and 45 have been doing for a quarter century. I think a nine can be an effective defense round, but I will always prefer 40 or 45. I don't feel poorly armed with non flagship jhps in the larger rounds or even fmj in a pinch. With a 9, I feel like I have to have a substantial supply of the best ammo made to be on a level playing field. I still think big bullets are better, if you can place them.

Remember the FBI and police in general largely abandoned the 9 because of inadequate performance. The 10 really was a big pistol and kicked too hard for many. The 40 was the goldilocks cartridge that really has done well, despite getting hate from 9mm, 45 and especially butthurt 10mm fans. Now after 25 years, the forty is said to beat up pistols, twist and buck like a mule, take up two much mag space, have barely enough power for stopping anything bigger than a fox, etc. Now the 9mm is the darling again.

I think it's about hit and cost averages for agencies. We individuals can research, buy, shoot and carry what we feel we can be effective with. I like 45 auto in single stacks and revolvers. I like 40 in subcompacts and double stacks. I won a nine but don't really like it. Wouldn't mind a 9mm snub nosed revolver though and still would love to have a Hi Power...oh they come in 40 also. Might have to snag some 40 and 357 sig police trade ins.

KiwiKev · Post by **KiwiKev** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:50 pm

Surely it comes down to what is the coolest. There is nothing cooler than a 1911. And there are ways to make an ordinary 1911 even cooler. 9mm Glock - will never be cool!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:02 am

And did ya hear? They're thinkin' about starting to issue a gun to our boys in green from an Itey company with a German cartridge ! The 9mm Luger!!! A 92 somethin or other?

Most of the people considering this will be burned as heretics when they realize the folly of their ways! JMB's 7 shooter is still the best!

donw · Post by **donw** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:46 pm

using FACTORY loads, in a self-defense situation...9mm OR 45 ACP will do the job.

just ask this question: "who will volunteer to be shot with a 9mm? 45?" i sincerely doubt you'd have many, if any, volunteers.

the military went to the 45 for a reason...they also switched to the 9mm for a reason.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:59 pm

KiwiKev wrote:Surely it comes down to what is the coolest. There is nothing cooler than a 1911. And there are ways to make an ordinary 1911 even cooler. 9mm Glock - will never be cool!

Agreed . The 1911A1 .45 ACP is the coolest handgun ever made. The best handgun ever made is the Glock in your choice of calibers.

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:20 pm

A fella I know was house invaded ( and several other houses too) by a guy wound up on meth. The fella was shot five times with a 9mm in the torso but lived. Half his little finger was missing, but otherwise ok. This was not modern ammo.

I have a nine, 45 colt gov., but much prefer the 10mm over both by a long shot.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:38 pm

It's always a fun(ny) debate.

I don't carry a .45 because 9mm sucks, I carry a .45 because I like the gun it goes in.

If I was concerned about superformance I wouldn't carry a .32acp about 1/3 of the time...

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:52 pm

octagon wrote:A fella I know was house invaded ( and several other houses too) by a guy wound up on meth. The fella was shot five times with a 9mm in the torso but lived. Half his little finger was missing, but otherwise ok. This was not modern ammo.

I have a nine, 45 colt gov., but much prefer the 10mm over both by a long shot.

Probably would have gotten the same results if dude was shot with a 10MM. Big game shot with a .22LR. drops dead right there. Big game shot with a .338Mag runs away to live another day, and, vice a versa. Too much huge, dangerous game was stopped and dropped with what the experts claim were inadequate calibers. At the same time, Elephants were shot 5 times with a .458 and kept right on coming. Aim for the vitals and use what you shoot best with. Even if , it's a caliber or loading, that those "EXPERTS" laugh at, and you will be ok, or maybe not, nothing is final and written in stone, but mostly hype and opinion.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:57 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:It's always a fun(ny) debate.

I don't carry a .45 because 9mm sucks, I carry a .45 because I like the gun it goes in.

If I was concerned about superformance I wouldn't carry a .32acp about 1/3 of the time...

I carry a .32 even though I have bigger calibers and can shoot accurately with them. Because I can conceal and carry the .32, and not even know it's not there. And, in the unlikely event that I have to use it, I'm confident that I'd come out on top.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:21 pm

tman wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:It's always a fun(ny) debate.

I don't carry a .45 because 9mm sucks, I carry a .45 because I like the gun it goes in.

If I was concerned about superformance I wouldn't carry a .32acp about 1/3 of the time...
I carry a .32 even though I have bigger calibers and can shoot accurately with them. Because I can conceal and carry the .32, and not even know it's not there. And, in the unlikely event that I have to use it, I'm confident that I'd come out on top.

Ding, Ding, Ding....Winner! Same with my .380.....

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:00 pm

More elephants have been killed (by the same man) with a .303 and a 7mm Mauser than any other caliber. Because the man knew how to shoot.

I carry a .45. I've been carrying a .45 for 14+ years. Never felt underarmed when carrying an M9 with FMJ, though the ammo was not my favorite. My agency issues .45 Glocks, and I didn't have a problem with that. The "bring your own" policy is fairly liberal so people who can't handle the .45 (recoil or grip size) can carry most anything they want. We're going back to 9mm for the same reason as the FBI.

Personally as a walking target in uniform, the idea of having 40 .45s vs 52 9mm......having the extra 12 gives me warm fuzzies. My pistol is my primary, it's primary mission is to ensure my survival at close range and get me back to my vehicle (where a rifle and a LOT more ammo is).

Seen guys killed by a steak knife (1 stab) 12 gauge (instant decapitation) and a variety of pistol rounds over the years. As to penetration, I once met a guy shot in the leg. The round (9mm FMJ) went completely through his leg, the car seat, the car floor (1980s Cadillac, solid car) and into the pavement so deep it nearly wasn't recovered.

.40 and .357 (both types) do well at barrier penetration. .45, not so much, something they knew in the 1920s.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:09 pm

Carry whatever you choose, so long as you have it always! I love the .45. But the 9mm sig 938 has been my everywhere carry once I moved into an office work environment where I couldn't walk around the plant with a larger firearm hidden. The 938 has remained hidden day in and day out but always on me at the ready. Carry what you can handle, shoot well, and have in you all the time Be safe out there

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:35 pm

I must admit that reading some of the reports surprises me on one shot stops, etc. by the sub calibers. From old data, the 9mm and smaller rounds had a poor showing, but with modern premium ammo, I am sure the nine probably does well. I will carry one when I see an advantage, (meaning smaller gun) like maybe a Shield or M & P compact or Glock 43, but personally as a civilian for CCW, I don't much care for large double stack nines, or the mouse guns.
But just like today, I often find that I can carry a Colt 1911 Lightweight Commander, just as easily as I can the smaller guns, and I went everywhere I wanted, today, and frankly I couldn't really afford to be made, today, but I also wanted a gun that I have confidence in if I really needed it, no matter how slim the chance was that I would in fact win the lottery.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:42 pm

It's a really simple calculus for me.

I carry the snubby .357 & 2 speed strips when doing ranching stuff + trips in town. Reason: Ammo options. From snakes in the sage to downer bulls I've got a load handy... and the loads fit the "horse rifle" ('92) too.

I carry the .45 + 1 mag for EDC in town. Reason: Comfortable + quick mag change. Couple of 15s in the truck.

I carry the 9 double stack + 3 mags when I go to the Mall or Movies in a nearby city. Reason: more targets, more bullets. Period. Fanny packs look stupid, but who cares.

I carry the NAA .32 + 2 mags always. (Sometimes as the only...) "Noisy Cricket" is sometimes the best, only or Last option...