44-40 Extra Long...

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cshold
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44-40 Extra Long...

#1 Post by cshold » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:04 am

8)

"I believe this non head stamped cartridge to be the often discussed but seldom seen .44-40 Extra Long. Several of the standard references over the years pictured this cartridge, but none provided much information on what firearm it was intended for. Robert Buttweiller sold quite a few of these in his auctions, and usually mentioned in his catalog descriptions the lack of definitive information on the firearm and the maker. However, in his Collector's Ammunition volume XI, number 2 (November 30, 1996) he lists a cartridge that matches the one pictured here, and mentions in the description a recently unearthed UMC journal, in which there is an entry dated May 1888 for a .44-50 center fire Spencer. It was described as a .44 Winchester with a case 1/4" longer than standard, 50 grains of powder, and a regular 200 grain bullet seated and crimped the same as for the Winchester. This cartridge seems to fit the description of the UMC .44 Spencer CF, with a case that measures about .26" longer than the .44-40 case and a .44-40 style bullet."

The dimensions are as follows:

bullet - .434"

neck - .441"

base - .466"

rim - 1.573"

case - 1.573

overall - 1.842"
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#2 Post by rjohns94 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:06 am

Kewl. Learn something every day
Mike Johnson,

"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#3 Post by Grizz » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:51 am

that is really interesting.

magnumitis is in the dna.

hey, can you make this one a little longer, I missed a deer at the edge of the other field.... by just a little bit.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#4 Post by cshold » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:10 am

As the good book says...
There's nothing new under the sun.
Magnumitis was going on even back in the holy black only days :D
It is an awesome looking little round.
I sure wouldn't mind playing with it. 8)

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#5 Post by Griff » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:08 pm

I wonder if they did something different with the rifling for this .44-50? I suspect the .45-60 had already gained acceptance for those wishing for a median power cartridge... and UMC didn't see it going anywhere near "up" in the sales charts...
rjohns94 wrote:Kewl. Learn something every day
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#6 Post by earlmck » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:55 pm

Verrry interesting. I had not realized there were variations in the Spencer rifle to include different calibers.
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is he who heals the most gullies.
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#7 Post by Old Savage » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:01 pm

But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#8 Post by cshold » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:40 pm


3leggedturtle
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#9 Post by 3leggedturtle » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:16 pm

I spent many a cold winter night looking at the old and obsolete cartridges section of COTW and realizing its been done already and alot, not only here; but over in Europe as well.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage: The Original short action, compact, high velocity cartridge.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#10 Post by ollogger » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:36 pm

Frank Barnes said from what he found out from collector's it was a shot cartridge with a
bullet shoved in it ???




Brad

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#11 Post by cshold » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:32 am

ollogger wrote:Frank Barnes said from what he found out from collector's it was a shot cartridge with a
bullet shoved in it ???




Brad
Good :idea:
Back in the day Recycling at it's best 8)
I wonder what the added horse power was with that extra 10 grains of black behind the 200 grain pill.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#12 Post by Tactical Lever » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:36 am

Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#13 Post by cshold » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:53 am

Tactical Lever wrote:
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Well done, I like that. 8)
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums. :)

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#14 Post by Tactical Lever » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:06 am

casastahle wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Well done, I like that. 8)
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums. :)
Thanks! I'm glad you got a kick out of it. :D
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#15 Post by Griff » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:44 am

If only the Spencer had its hammer cocked when working the lever!
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#16 Post by M. M. Wright » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm

Didn't know if it's existence and I have lots of experience with 44-40, (60 years). Sounds it might be interesting in a low wall.
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#17 Post by Cranker » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:22 pm

The original posting mentioned the reference found in a UMC Journal of 1888. I did some searching on this and found that it was in regards to some samples made up by UMC and sent to Spencer. Apparently that was the end of it and Spencer found no need to produce rifles for it. It turns out that I have a Frank Wesson 2-Trigger rifle for which I have been making 44-40 Extra Long cases using 444 Marlin brass and 44-40 reloading dies and fire forming. My rifle dates between 1872 and roughly 1875 or 1876. This gives credence to the "44-40 Extra Long" ammo examples with no headstamp actually being 44-40 Extra Long. I am attempting to find an example of this old ammo to compare with my chamber. Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#18 Post by Mike Armstrong » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:24 pm

It's confusing because there is also a ".44 XL" which is a .44 WCF with an elongated neck area that was originally loaded with birdshot and is thought by some to be the ancestor of the .410 shotshell. I've seen them in break action Stevens and H&R single shot shotguns, but the most interesting one is the Stevens "Model 101," which is a Stevens "Crackshot" breakopen rifle but smoothbore barreled for the ".44 XL Shot" and so marked. The .44 XL was also sometimes loaded with a single .44 lead ball. I've also seen Stevens Model 44 single shots barreled for this ctg.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#19 Post by 3leggedturtle » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:33 pm

I read the U.S. Army was also testing a .43 cartridge along side the 45*70. It looked alot like the .444 Marlin. I can oy wonder what would have done to change hustory!
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage: The Original short action, compact, high velocity cartridge.

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#20 Post by Bill in Oregon » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:43 pm

Cranker, good heavens, man, let us see some photos of your Wesson rifle -- and some targets!
Todd, it is a lot of fun to read COTW and dream. The Obsolete American chapter is my favorite. 8)

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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#21 Post by Cranker » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:06 am

Received a U.M.C. cartridge today headstamped .44-40 which matched my chamber cast. Also in the first pic are 2 cases as made from 444 Marlin cut to 1.6 inches and full length sized in a 44-40 WCF die with no decapper in it. They have yet to be fire formed. The second pic is my Frank Wesson. The rear sight is folded down for cleaning access.
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Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

#22 Post by rossim92 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:09 am

Grizz wrote:
Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:51 am
that is really interesting.

magnumitis is in the dna.

hey, can you make this one a little longer, I missed a deer at the edge of the other field.... by just a little bit.
I have the same problem with girls. :oops:
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