...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert alone.

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...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert alone.

Post by Panzercat »

Wednesday was the second chance for my AR. I cleaned it, lubed it and bought some decent PMC 62gr 5.56 green nose to feed it. I'm happy to say that part was a success. She ran through those mags flawlessly, only encountering problems when my buddy decided to try the Tula again just to see if it was a break in issue. Nope-- That Tula 55gr steel is nasty stuff and gummed up the works again and reverted my purdy AR to single shot, bolt action once more. Even so, it was a productive day for the AR. We even got the flip up $20 ebay BUIS sighted in.

The 39a, on the other hand, was an all around happy camper. I sighted her in and we were busting clays out to 100 yards on irons. It was loads of fun and could do no wrong, proving once more that sacrificing an SKS to buy it was the right decision. The XDm .45 was also a winner. The thing continues to be stupid accurate, even in my hands. Annihilating clays out to 50 yards with the big ol' 45acp was just as much fun as plinking at 100, and I burned through 4 mags easily...

...Which is where our sordid tale begins.

The location is Table Mesa, AZ. If you've never been out there, it's off the highway a-ways with several little turnoffs people use to shoot into the hills. It's pretty littered with junk of all sorts, but even the shot up junk makes for good stands and such. You'll usually have company often enough, and you try to judge if you're going to be shooting with somebody responsible or some idiots. The first turnoff we chose were idiots, who were actually shooting way down inside a ravine, ensuring everybody elses rounds would be going over their heads. We pass and choose another turnoff. Not as nice, but nobody there.

Until a beatup white Honda shows up, parking near the entrance. A hispanic gentleman gets out-- jeans, wife beater tee and beer in his hand. Yay. He parked a ways away so i'm not horribly concerned until he just starts walking over. He talking about he's just going to park here and shoot, he'd go to another turnoff but he's low on gas, is there somewhere closers, etcetera etcetera, all while walking closer. My first thing is beer + messed up priorities between shooting and gas. Things aren't adding up. This guy is setting off all sorts of alarms now for both of us and my friend ducks behind the jeep to reload since both of us had just shot our pistol dry with no reloads on tap. There's a lesson in that.

I'm in not in an ideal position. I'm humoring the guy with an empty XD on my hip, a .22 lever rifle on my shoulder and a single shot AR five yards away. My only solstice is that I'm sure I look intimidating. He stops stops at about 15 yards, getting the idea that my buddy has been busy while I'm keeping him talking. Funny thing is i'm not overly worried about him. He's got nothing on his hips. Might have had something on his back or legs, but that'll give me time to react. I'm more worried about his super dark tinted rice-burner and who or what is inside.

Hombre gets the idea that maybe he's not the one in the best of positions and mosy back to the car whereupon we frantically load up as much pelosi as we can. He's still got some .40 and he's locked and loaded by that point. Sadly, my XD won't see any love since she's 45acp. Still, he's at range now and i can guarantee a headshot with the marlin, but I'm still concerned about that car. I throw what's left of the PMC into the AR mag because even as a single shot rifle, I want the ability to punch holes in that car.

Fortunately, this story has a happy ending: We left. I've always maintained that the first rule of a gunfight is not to be present for the gunfight. We had had our fun. I covered my buddy while he collected his stuff and we left while he was pulling three revolvers out of his trunk and commenced to dual wielding them on the paper target he set up.

Yep. There's a good amount of paranoia inherant in this tale, but there were too many things going wrong and we both concurred things were getting too sketchy. He could have been drunk and just friendly or he could have been looking us over to see how easy of a mark we were... I'm thinking a combination. Or some wierd, cohersive panhandling with the gas explantion in play. Even if everything was above the board, it still highlights my learning experience:

-Have a mag on you. Don't use it for fun. Sure you're having a great time shooting and all, but it really sucks when you just ran your gun dry and random chance comes calling like it did us.

-Have a zone of exculusion at which point your hand should be on your gun whether you plan to draw or not. Predefine that distance.

-Don't try to analyze their story. If it doesn't make sense, don't try to find ways to make it fit into a logical story. All that does is occupy brain cycles while he gets closer. You can second guess yourself later like I'm doing now :)

-Oh, and don't use Tula 55gr steel. It sucks hard. :lol:

Just like the park incident about a year back, thank God for life lessons in the form of nudges and not life or death bludgeons.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Grizz »

Good post. Glad you had a buddy.

I'm usually alone and try to park in a way that I'll stay that way. I have a rule that I don't shoot every firearm, and keep one hot at all times. If I want to shoot it, I move another into his job. The buddy system.

I explained to my wife, the reason I have two handguns out is so I won't disarm myself when I clean one.

Glad you read the spoor and closed the door. It's a good lesson for all of us.

Interesting about the AR and that ammo, I'm gonna avoid it based on your experience.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by m.wun »

Its always a good idea to have something with you down range when checking
targets and have one person at the line at the same time.Good heads up thanks.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by J Miller »

Panzercat,

Been there and done that more than once. At the Table Mesa area no less.

It's not paranoid to be aware of ones situation and strive to control it.

Joe
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by BrentD »

There is a reason to break out the wallet and join a gun club like Ben Avery for example.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by carbluesnake »

Great awareness! thumbs up for the good guys.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by AJMD429 »

Been in a few similar situations over the years. Agree with you on tactics about 'not being there' the best one.

1. if you sense a fight (gun or otherwise) brewing, decline the opportunity, politely if possible, and leave.

2. don't bring a knife to a gunfight...a gun is ok, but better yet, have several guns, bigger guns, and at least one friend to hold some of them.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by TedH »

I never leave the range with an empty gun. Glad you had a non event there.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by AmBraCol »

There's another thing you didn't mention - were you so focused on your visitor you didn't remember to scan your surroundings? Dark tinted windows can hide a lot, but so can the desert. I don't know that area in particular, but a lot of places it's easy to drop someone off unseen and continue on towards the mark. It's easy to get tunnel vision and not keep an eye and ear out for an accomplice coming in on a tangent. Real perps often run in packs - and hunt like wolves. It pays to scan and not fixate on what could very well be just a distraction for the main event coming up from behind.

Loaded pistol on the hip at all times - and don't leave easily accessible firearms and ammo where someone could come up, load YOUR gun and shoot you with it while you're downrange admiring your handiwork. There's a public range I like to visit when we're up north and have met some nice folk there. But then there's the odd one that sets off alarm bells. Listening to them is a good idea. I'm glad you did - and brought up the topic here as well.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by hayabusa »

On the TULA 55gr steel cased 223 ammo, UPS delivered me a case of 1,000 rounds yesterday evening.
When I try it out I will start a post on it. :(
You fellows did good!

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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by firefuzz »

Glad you came out of it okay. Situational awareness often prevents problems before they start, that a posture that you're not going to be an easy mark. Even when I'm teaching or shooting at the privately owned range I use most of the time I keep a loaded mag of "duty" ammo in my left rear pocket. There's no gate and anybody can drive up right to the firing line.

About the Tula ammo....I've fired a bunch of it in 7.62x39 with no problems. That hasn't been the case with .223/5.56. I got lucky and only bought a couple of 20rd boxes to try in a well broken in AR. Started jamming on round number 4, only time that gun has ever jammed. I've heard mixed reports from other shooters, but everyone I know agrees it's hard on extractors. I think the jamming problem is associated with not only the coating, but the difference in the case taper between .223/5.56 and 7.62x39.

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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by walks with gun »

Yep, always keep one loaded and at hand. It's not really being paranoid, it's being cautious.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by tman »

walks with gun wrote:Yep, always keep one loaded and at hand. It's not really being paranoid, it's being cautious.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by piller »

Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there trying to kill you and steal your firearms. Those folks don't care about you. In fact, they don't even consider your life to have any value at all.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by williamranks »

I follow the old rule, never holster and empty gun. Good guys like you think about work, family, and a lot of other stuff. Bad guys spend their whole day thinking about how to take your stuff away from you. You have to think "what if" in those situations. What if he dropped off his partner to circle behind you.
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Went down to the Childs campground once to check it out. It was full of drunks and dope smokers who were basically permanent residents.
I've been driven out of unimproved camping areas by people who move in next to me in the middle of the night, stealing my firewood, sitting on the hood of my car and worse.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Mescalero »

I don't go there anymore for that same reason............. too much wierdness.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Bubba w/a 45/70 »

I've ran that Tula .223 through my Mini-14 without a problem, but it was extremely dirty. I can see where much more than a couple of boxes would cause problems for sure.

And I've used my own advise of never having an unloaded tool at hand for many years. I shoot at a local gun range that is run by the game and fish dept, but I ahve seen enough dirtbags to make me wary.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by piller »

Remember the old movie with Clint Walker called "More Dead than Alive"? In it, he is constantly telling the young gunslinger to never holster an empty gun. The young kid never listens and it gets him killed in the movie.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by mohavesam »

I quit casual shooting in the desert for many of the same reasons in the OP. Too many places for my body to be found.

But the clincher was a G&F officer who suddenly appeared with hand-on-gun. He politely asked for ID and checked over the truck.

Then he "reminded" me that once I began shooting up trash and other people's junk out there, it became MY TRASH, MY LITTER in the eyes of the law.
Cleanup fees, littering and dumping fines, even gun & vehicle confiscation could all come my way.
I verified this ugly truth with my lawyer a few days later.

In that case the nice civil servant let me be, but the point was ell-made.

Since then I shoot targets, which I ALWAYS pack home with me.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Old Ironsights »

I dislike shooting trash, so I have a couple Gongs, one that can take all but AP and a smaller rimfire spinner, and a few rubber reactive "target balls". Either way I don't have to go down range until I'm packing the gong home. No going out to measure group-size. When every shot goes Clang, at whatever range I'm shooting at, my groups are more than good enough.

But as others have said, never be unable to return fire. At the very minimum I'm wearing a loaded sidearm, and if the range is empty, when I go to collect my stuff, the rifle goes with me... loaded.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 7.62 Precision »

On the Tula ammo, are the cases coated, and with what, what is the chamber on your rifle and who made the barrel? What kind of malfunctions are you getting, exactly?

I always keep a weapon loaded when shooting, especially alone.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by GonnePhishin »

Panzercat,
Thanks for sharing a most interesting narrative on your recent encounter. Glad it turned out for the best.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 2571 »

I don't understand what happened. Did he announce a hold-up or were you just afraid of him because he didn't appear to have a weapon?

Why was this any different than going to WalMart where you usually encounter people you don't know?

What am I missing here? Is the desert one of those no-go zones like the furriners were so upset about last week?
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by RustyJr »

2571,
A lot of what was described sounded like that "sixth sense", that "gut feeling" that something isn't right and to be careful. It may have been the guys body language or the tone of his voice. Some times its just that still small voice in the back of your mind saying "watch out". I have experienced it more than once myself. Some times you just . . . "feel it". Many times people will show/tell you what they are going to do before they do it, you just have to know what the indicators are. Not sure if any of that makes sense.


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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by GonnePhishin »

Why was this any different than going to WalMart where you usually encounter people you don't know?
'Cause usually when you go to Redchinese Mart there are more than 2 people in the store and chances of getting mugged in Redchinese mart are pretty slim. Unless there happens to be only 2 people in the store; you and the stranger and the store is closed.

Kind of like walking around downtown Detroit @ 0200 in the morning which is something I wouldn't do. Or Cleveland, or Chicago, etc.
Last edited by GonnePhishin on Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Sixgun »

It's much better to be pro-active than it is to be dead.

Be aware of your surroundings.

I tell my wife and daughter that if someone is approaching you and "it just does seem right", to put your hand out and say, very meaningful and authoritive,..."hey fu----, back the f--- off.

The f-word is essential....it shows you mean business........and your no "push-over".

If by chance you are wrong, the most you have done is that you hurt some stranger's feelings. The alternative is.............well...............--6
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Panzercat »

I freely admit to some degree of paranoia, but both myself and my buddy concur when discussing it on the way out... And I'm probably more prone to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. In fact, i still just want to believe the guy was buzzed. Don't know what to tell you besides having somebody walk up to you from 50 yards away explaining to you about how they can't go any further to shoot because they're low on gas with zero in the way of introductions is just... Well, anyway.

As to the Tula, a quick search about the interwebs seems to favor the Mini14 for operation. But seriously, the stuff is dirty, which I'm certain was the problem. As far as my AR goes, same symptoms as before-- Single shot, good ejection, fails to strip the next round. Works fine for the PMC 62gr, so whatever. Maybe it just doesn't like the tula. Either way, that fix is simple. Clean, lube and don't use tula :)
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by OldWin »

Situational awareness and observation are just as important as having an easily accessible gun with you. Being armed guarantees nothing if you are two steps behind someone planning evil against you.
The best thing about your situation is it worried you enough that you won't forget it or what you think you did wrong. You took the time to post it here so you are thinking about it and going over what you would differently.
A little "scare" can sometimes be a great motivator.

My wife manages an insurance agency here in town. She carries 24/7 and even at the office. She can see the door into the business from her desk but is in an office with no other door but facing the entrance about 25 feet away.
I always tell her that no matter what she is doing or who she is talking to, to always look up when that door opens and observe who enters. This glance and "heads up" of only a few seconds can be the difference between life and death, between "having a plan" or "reacting".
She used to just kind of "humor" me. What ever happens in this hick town? In the last two years there has been an armed robbery across the street at a pharmacy, and two doors down at a bank. Granted, it ain't Chicago, but still.


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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Booger Bill »

In the early 1970`s in southern california, my buddy and I went shooting. I had pulled off a secondary road on a trail went up aways and we stopped to shoot on a remote mountain side. We were setting up and I heard shooting farther on the trail with a rise between us. I walked up the trail to the rise high point and seen what looked to be a father with his two young teenage sons shooting 22 rifles into the mountainside. A woman was sitting in the truck and it looked like she was passing her time reading and waiting. They were about 80 yards downhill from me. I yelled down that we would be shooting in the mountain too and what direction we were. The man waved a acknowledgment and I walked back to my buddy, red. Soon bullets started whipping over our head! Not just a couple but they kept it up. Red wanted to shoot back. I wouldnt let him, told him I couldnt believe they were trying to harm us on purpose as it looked like a family down there. Yet about a week prior three young guys were murdered about 10 or fifteen miles from there also target shooting. At the time of our incident I am not sure if that shooting was solved yet. (It had turned out that some black`s had killed the white teens). So that probley was on our minds too. We hunkered down for what seemed to be a half hour and I estimate a 100 rounds flew maybe 6 feet over our heads in that time. We loaded up everything we had and waited. Presently we could hear the truck fire up and here the come. I stopped the family and crawled their butts big time. The guy said he and his boys never shot our direction but of course he was lieing. What are you going to do? I chewed butt but in the end of it had to let him go. After they drove off we walked over the rise in the trail and found where they had set tin cans up right on the road exactly where I had hollered from and shot straight down the road where we were parked with a small rise in the trail between them and us! We very well could have shot back, and might even had been justified in doing it. Red wanted to!
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by octagon »

My fishing buddy always ask why I have 2-3 pistols and 2-3 mags each, he is not a "gun" guy. I tell him "just in case." the area we fish, not far from the homeplace, is quite remote. Two years ago a active marine went postal, killed his wife on the east coast, and drove to Texas and shot up a store early one morning, went down the road 40 miles and shot up another store, back to original store to shoot it up again, then drove right by the ranch on his way to a tiny town and killed an elderly woman. He then headed to another small town, when a Game Warden and Highway Patrolman killed him on the side of the road. Bad guy had an AR and was killed by an AR.
When I showed the fishing buddy the route the killer took, he thought I was now reasonably armed. Later, I showed him the new AR I had behind the seat as well.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by markinalpine »

If you can, don't forget to bring your (a) dog. It will warn you if there is another person in the area hiding in the bushes, and people up to no good tend to be afraid of dogs anyway. And if they don't like dogs, I don't want them around me.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by williamranks »

And then there are people who treat a gun like a toy.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Driver-fin ... 21571.html
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Old Ironsights »

octagon wrote:...Bad guy had an AR and was killed by an AR...
IMPORTANT PEDANTRY BREAK...

He was NOT "killed by an AR".

He was killed by a GOOD GUY - WITH an AR.

Humongo anti-gunner rhetoric difference...
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Old Ironsights »

williamranks wrote:And then there are people who treat a gun like a toy.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Driver-fin ... 21571.html
Idiot... in both cases.

The first Idiot DESERVED to lose his rifle forever, and the finder was an even greater idiot for (a) not keeping it, and/or (b) not keeping the find PRIVATE until he PRIVATELY found the idiot who lost it.

If I find a modern firearm that has been "lost" in such a manner, it's dang-well finder's keepers unless I hear a decent *** (i.e. boo-hoo since the auto censor can't differentiate "sahb" from sunny-beach) story (maybe about a genuine theft event) that compels me to cough it up.

That is something the Army beat into me with countless hours of Grass Drills for other's incompetence...

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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 2ndovc »

I had a similar experience in PA years ago.

Blew all my .223s out of my Dad's Mini 14 just fooling around shooting up dirt. Was left with a 1911a1 and a semi auto 22lr.

Local was yelling and making threats with a .44 mag when we leveled our guns at his head.

He packed up and left. We contacted the State Police and this individual was a known offender.
Never saw him again.

jb 8)
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Panzercat wrote:As to the Tula, a quick search about the interwebs seems to favor the Mini14 for operation. But seriously, the stuff is dirty, which I'm certain was the problem. As far as my AR goes, same symptoms as before-- Single shot, good ejection, fails to strip the next round. Works fine for the PMC 62gr, so whatever. Maybe it just doesn't like the tula. Either way, that fix is simple. Clean, lube and don't use tula :)
Tula has a reputation (deserved) for being underpowered. I have never shot 7.62x39 Tula in either of my vz.58s and had it lock the bolt back on the last round. Better ammo will lock the bolt back, Tula never has. Wolf steel case does intermittently. Surplus ammo always does.

I have seen the same symptoms in ARs with Tula - the bolt will cycle far enough to cycle another cartridge, but not to lock the bolt back, with intermittent malfunctions, or will not cycle another round. If your rifle was old, well worn, and well lubed, it might work better, but even with better ammo, new rifles often prefer hot ammo and heavier bullets at first.

Tula ammo used to be imported older some other names, but they began exporting it under their own name after being dropped by others due to inconsistency in powder quantities and sizing, generally underloaded.

There have been several cases I have read about in which people have waited at ranges for someone else to run dry and then steal their guns. There was a case a while back in which someone was shot and killed at a range and his guns stolen, and then later the same person tried to shoot someone else but the guy's son was armed and shot back. Another one where the guy was shot at or shot on the trail walking out from the range, but I don't remember the details - whether it turned out OK or not.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by GonnePhishin »

And then there are people who treat a gun like a toy.
Notice how they report that an "assault rifle" was found. Leave it to the media to lie and distort the story: the bunch of pelosi's :evil:
Nevertheless, it was pretty stupid of him.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Streetstar »

7.62 Precision wrote:
Panzercat wrote:As to the Tula, a quick search about the interwebs seems to favor the Mini14 for operation. But seriously, the stuff is dirty, which I'm certain was the problem. As far as my AR goes, same symptoms as before-- Single shot, good ejection, fails to strip the next round. Works fine for the PMC 62gr, so whatever. Maybe it just doesn't like the tula. Either way, that fix is simple. Clean, lube and don't use tula :)

There have been several cases I have read about in which people have waited at ranges for someone else to run dry and then steal their guns. There was a case a while back in which someone was shot and killed at a range and his guns stolen, and then later the same person tried to shoot someone else but the guy's son was armed and shot back. Another one where the guy was shot at or shot on the trail walking out from the range, but I don't remember the details - whether it turned out OK or not.
I shoot a bit at a BLM range --- jack- azzes think it is acceptable to bring out their old computers and appliances to shoot up from time to time.
I just like being able to plink clay birds off the berms with no problems there, -- but anyway, the rule of thumb there is the same as what manyof you alluded to. Never more than one long gun out at a time, and pack it downrange when checking targets. Dont be there after 130 or 2 pm, the dirtballs get liquored up and go out later in the day
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by .45colt »

Good post... makes Us stop and THINK a little. things in this world are always changing and evolving usually not for the best. My Wife thinks it's silly that I take My great uncles walking cane to the park when we walk the bike path...I need to join the local shooting range as I have no idea who lives in the houses down the street and If I'm out in the back forty shooting I'm sending a clear message to all what I have....a few years ago one of the roofs blew off as they were making meth.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 2571 »

"Kind of like walking around downtown Detroit @ 0200 in the morning which is something I wouldn't do. Or Cleveland, or Chicago, etc."

Seems an irrational fear. Crime happens when there are people around. It would never occur to me to be afraid of what might happen.

I trust you do not live close to an airport.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by JohndeFresno »

Panzercat wrote:I freely admit to some degree of paranoia...
[Highlighting is mine] Not at all, Panzercat.

Paranoia is, loosley defined, characterized by delusions of persecution or self importance in an unwarranted way.

The world has changed. Even Bill O'Reilly, who claims to be "fair and balanced" but (in my opinion) has softballed several crooked acts by certain prominent politicians, recently declared that these days - one should NOT give the other fella the benefit of the doubt.

These days, even in my sleepy little Valley town (it's not precisely Fresno), you are likely as not to be shot during a robbery, after you comply and turn over the money, just so you won't be a witness. And in Fresno and other larger cities it's worse. That is, unless you take care of business first. That was all was very unusual 30 years ago.

There are good folks all around. But there is also a different class of mean people these days - more dangerous and treacherous. TV and media violence, video games, latch key kids? I have a simpler answer, but for reasons of this topic, clearly: Things are different.

Then, notwithstanding the good folks who live there, there are indeed predators and very strange people that one frequently runs across in the desert, for whatever reasons they show up there. It's always been that way.

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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by BrentD »

JdeFresno, By every estimate I see, violent crime is down and has been going down for year after year after year.

We talk about it more, the internet is full of it, but apparently the numbers don't bear that out.

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a- ... n-america/

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06 ... -lows?lite

Sometimes irrational paranoia really is irrational paranoia
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by 92&94 »

The range I use most often is pretty tame, lots of space if one wishes to avoid company.

I was shooting their yesterday, aware that a vehicle that had driven down the road behind me turned around and drove up to where I was shooting. Figure this was a good time to pick up brass and check out who it was. Turns out it was just an old friend of mine, we hadn't crossed paths in 3-4 years so he stopped to catch up a bit :mrgreen:

When I lived in Tucson I used to shoot in the desert, either up north of Catalina or at Reddington Pass. Rarely had any cause for concern at all, though there did seem to be more armed idiots running around the pass. Usually I went far enough up to avoid the bulk of them - they tended to stop at the first spot they found, of which there were many available. Going all the way up took an extra 20 minutes, but it meant uninterrupted shooting and less garbage around.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Blaine »

BrentD wrote:JdeFresno, By every estimate I see, violent crime is down and has been going down for year after year after year.

We talk about it more, the internet is full of it, but apparently the numbers don't bear that out.

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a- ... n-america/

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06 ... -lows?lite

Sometimes irrational paranoia really is irrational paranoia
With little more than anecdotal evidence to offer, I believe that while national averages show a downward trend, that inner city, and gang violence has risen.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by BrentD »

BlaineG wrote:
BrentD wrote:JdeFresno, By every estimate I see, violent crime is down and has been going down for year after year after year.

We talk about it more, the internet is full of it, but apparently the numbers don't bear that out.

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a- ... n-america/

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06 ... -lows?lite

Sometimes irrational paranoia really is irrational paranoia
With little more than anecdotal evidence to offer, I believe that while national averages show a downward trend, that inner city, and gang violence has risen.

I think you are probably mistaken. While is popular to claim these things, the numbers don't back them up.

I clipped this from the first reference:
Recently, scholars have added yet another explanation: Immigration. Cities and neighborhoods that have received the largest influx of immigrants (including Mexican immigrants) have had — despite popular stereotypes to the contrary — the largest drops in criminal violence. (See, e.g., here and here.) Thus, increased immigration may explain part of the crime drop since 1990.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by Blaine »

BrentD wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
BrentD wrote:JdeFresno, By every estimate I see, violent crime is down and has been going down for year after year after year.

We talk about it more, the internet is full of it, but apparently the numbers don't bear that out.

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a- ... n-america/

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06 ... -lows?lite

Sometimes irrational paranoia really is irrational paranoia
With little more than anecdotal evidence to offer, I believe that while national averages show a downward trend, that inner city, and gang violence has risen.

I think you are probably mistaken. While is popular to claim these things, the numbers don't back them up.

I clipped this from the first reference:
Recently, scholars have added yet another explanation: Immigration. Cities and neighborhoods that have received the largest influx of immigrants (including Mexican immigrants) have had — despite popular stereotypes to the contrary — the largest drops in criminal violence. (See, e.g., here and here.) Thus, increased immigration may explain part of the crime drop since 1990.
I looked around the 'net a little....the stats seem to be correct. I wonder if greatly increased legal ownership of firearms is involved.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by JohndeFresno »

BrentD wrote:JdeFresno, By every estimate I see, violent crime is down and has been going down for year after year after year...irrational paranoia
Brent,
I don't know where you live but:
1) I am happy for you that (apparently) things are flowers and music where you live.
2) I am concerned that your sources are NBC News and anything with the word "Berkeley" in it. "News" from those arenas has been continuously and regularly debunked as biased, agenda exclusive, and even manufactured - lies - on many occasions.

Here is some anecdotal stuff and some stuff that you can easily research with Google

Look up Fresno, for instance, and you will discover that there is at least one shooting every month, usually gang related, and frequently fatal for some innocent bystander like the 9 year old girl who was just buried this week. Even if the robberies and shootings are down, they are more frequently fatal than in, say, the 50's in this same town. For reasons stated - no witnesses, but also for crazy things like gang initiation which requires a shooting for many of the groups.

And it is no secret that gangs are taking over towns literally all over this country.

Then there is a particular ethnic community whose members frequently will not report robberies, rapes, and assaults because they are so entrenched - in many inner cities - that they fear retribution. That, and as a group they distrust police as a culture. Plain fact. I have worked with these groups of people singly but have been told again and again that for these reasons, victims and witnesses that have trusted me will nevertheless refuse to step forward. They have to live in the neighborhood, and witness protection is not just thrown out to every witness to, or victim of, a street crime.

I can go on and on, having worked in various arenas, but specifically in the San Joaquin Valley itself in municipal police work for over 20 years, while living here the remaining 18 1/2 years while engaged in State work.

FBI stats used to carry weight with me. I have worked with, known, and do know some fine folks in that agency. But the agency's credibility went out the window when nothing was ever done about the Black Panthers who violated several Federal statutes when they stood outside a polling place in Philadelphia, in uniform, toting clubs, as clearly documented on videotape. The FBI has become agenda driven by an administration that wants to show lower crime stats, and not offend certain voting blocs, for political purposes.

Now, here is but one personal anecdote - believe it or don't believe it - that parallels my beliefs stated above, from actual experience. As I say, call me a liar or not, but this is absolutely "the Gospel truth" as they say.

Setting: Several years ago, when the City of Fresno was under fire for being the "crime capitol" of - somewhere - California? - Western States? - the Nation? Don't recall exactly. It was sometime around 1980's, about the same time that the Ominibus Crime Bill was passed to put more police on the street and loosen some of the ridiculous restriction that our Supremes had placed on the police in their investigations.

My Position: Deputy Sheriff, at the time I-Bureau, which is popularized as "CSI" on TV. Among other things, a certified fingerprint expert who was tasked to dust for and present that evidence into court.

Occurrence: My parked car was forcibly entered by breaking a window in a public parking area and certain items of value were taken; a nice fogcutter coat and some personal items. The value was over $400, that would make even the theft itself a felony in this state. I took fingerprints - good, fresh sets - and since this occurred in the city, I went to Fresno PD to make a burglary report. Knowing that a claim of bias might be made, I was forced to take the prints because the PD refused to come out and dust - they didn't do that for car burglaries at the time, I guess, and you can draw your own conclusions as you read below. I had to get to work, so I couldn't just stand by and guard the scene for our I-Bureau.

Result: After arriving at work, I was told to make a counter report across the street at the Police Department. They very reluctantly, and only when I got angry and insisted, took the fingerprints, although I have no idea what they did with them. The report was made out as a "Petty Theft from a vehicle" - misdemeanor that calls for little or no follow-up work by their detectives, and a much lower statistic of reportable crimes. I saw the man fill out the checkboxes and categorize the crime in front of me.

Reason: Despite my insistence to the POLICE OFFICER, as I recall a Sergeant, taking the desk report that this was a felony burglary of a locked car of over $400 loss, he did his best to gain my sympathy about what would happen to him if he didn't follow instructions and report this - and other car burglaries - as a "theft from car." That is, a theft of less than $400 from an unlocked car, which is a minor crime. He said that the Chief was under pressure to bring crime under control and on and on. He would not write a felony crime report. I complained to my superiors and the Sheriff's Department and they asked me if it was worth the - excuse my language - "peeing match" it would cause between the Sheriff and Chief of Police.

If this happened in front of my very eyes, it happens elsewhere. I never forgot it and I am not exaggerating. It was all part of my education of the fallacy of man and the corruption of the "System." Believe me - things are worse - folks is lyin' to you. It is my stated belief that even if the incidence of individual crimes is down, which I sincerely doubt, the number of shootings, stabbings and injuries or fatalities has vastly increased because of the violence prone society we live in.

I don't believe in assuming trouble will happen. But it is a mistake to be in "Condition White" because of some biased stats from a New York news agency or from a Left Coast blogger. Or even, it would seem, from the FBI, which (after all) is dependent upon the integrity of the police departments that feed them the data. Or the lack of it, as I witnessed in "my back yard."

Oh, and the increasing number of beheadings and Muslim Extremist assaults on police all over the world - are they a fantasy, as well? No, I think not. The world is more violent. At least the part of the world where I live, in the sleepy San Joaquin Valley.
Last edited by JohndeFresno on Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by octagon »

I wish some one would find the guy that almost succeeded in stealing my 3/4 ton last year, and tell him that crime is down. Or the guy that tried to break into my new GMC truck last week and tore the passenger handle up... :roll:
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by BrentD »

sorry to ruffle your feathers jdefresno. But the facts are the facts. they are not from NBC but they are from places like the FBI and they are used by lots of people to see where we are going as a society. If you want to make up your own crime stats, go ahead. Maybe Fresno really is different than the rest of the country but as a whole then, Fresno must be considerably worse off than the national average. I'm sorry you live there, perhaps you should move.

Meanwhile, interpreting why crime is going down, that is the hard part and that's where you can use your political biases to whip up a nice politically correct story to suit yourself. But just like the earth is getting warmer is a fact, the sun rises in the east is a fact, and no is getting out of this life alive is a fact, so is the decline in violent crimes a fact - in fact (probably a pun hidden there), almost all types of crime are going down.

You can make up your own story as to why.
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Re: ...And that's why you don't go shooting in the desert al

Post by JohndeFresno »

BrentD wrote:...But just like the earth is getting warmer is a fact...
Brrrr - cold winter here in Fresno. OK, I see where you are at. Anyway, your are still my Levergun buddy, and I will respect that.
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