Lookout...! Indiana allowing bottleneck rifles for deer.

[AJMD429]

Evidently the 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and 457 Mags weren't good enough for those running 300-yard shots, so now they are allowing pretty much every rifle cartridge "from 243 Win on up".

The problem I see with it is that the low-ballistic-coefficient bullets of 'pistol-caliber rifles', in case of a miss (especially a high-angle miss), slow down to baseball-speed in six hundred yards or so, then start falling rapidly. On the other hand, the high-ballistic-efficient bullets typical of bottleneck cartridges like the 7mm Rem Mag that everyone around here seems to think is the bare-minimum suitable for whitetail, stay supersonic and stable for at least half a mile or more.

I just see more accident potential, with no real 'necessary' gain in terms of practical hunting needs.

OTOH, I'm betting most of the folks who will be using the 338 RUM and 7mm Rem Mag, or even the 308 Win, and such things were already using them illegally anyhow; I've seen and heard plenty of them afield over the past decade or so.

Personally, I will rely on my 44 Mag, as usual, but may want to 'blood' my previously-illegal 444 Marlin someday; in the meantime, I have several already-legal ones to take afield that I've neglected:

• 45 Colt (Marlin 1894)
  444 Marlin (Marlin 336)
  500 S&W (Bighorn Armory)
  50 Beowulf (AR)
  357 Maximum (Contender Pistol)

. . . so I guess I need to get out of the 44 Mag rut. . .

[Old Ironsights]

You mean that the DNR saw no significant uptic in accidents (as the "no rifles, no way" crowd insisted would happen) even after folks started using wildcat ARs to hunt deer instead of Fully Rifled Sniper Shotguns?

Shocking.

The new rule won't make a bit of difference... especially since most folks there hunt from trees and point at the ground anyway. (I was one of 3 hunters who worked the ground at a major State Park cull. 2 of those guys were in static blinds. Everybody else (some 30 odd hunters) were up in the trees.

I don't see many Indiana Hunters shifting from Stand Hunting to spot-n-stalk just because the firearm rules changed.

[Pete44ru]

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Huh ! I never saw a bottleneck rifle before, just cartridges........ .


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[horsesoldier03]

I am not really sure that I see your point. To my knowledge, just about every other state in the union allows the use of center fire high-powered rifles and there are no unreasonable safety issues. I do hunt with a 30-30, and occasionally a .308, I hope that doesn't place me in the unsafe hunter category.

[magyars4]

I have not heard of the changes to cartridges here in Indiana....This is what I can find....
Administrative Rule (Regulation) Changes



If approved, these changes would take effect in 2015.

The Division of Fish & Wildlife initiated a number of rule ideas/topics for public comment earlier this year to start the biennial rule change process. Thousands of comments were received both online and by regular mail in January and February. A few ideas submitted by the Division of Fish & Wildlife were dropped, and a couple of ideas received by the public were added as a result of some of these comments. As a result of public comments and requests by staff of the Division of Fish & Wildlife, the following amendments are proposed.

NONE OF THESE PROPOSED CHANGES, IF APPROVED, WILL TAKE EFFECT THIS YEAR (2014).


http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/2362.htm

[Old Ironsights]

I am not really sure that I see your point. To my knowledge, just about every other state in the union allows the use of center fire high-powered rifles and there are no unreasonable safety issues. I do hunt with a 30-30, and occasionally a .308, I hope that doesn't place me in the unsafe hunter category.

Here's the deal...

Back in, oh, 2006/2007 the idea was floated by the IN DNR to nix the "Shotgun Only" Rule for Deer Hunting in Indiana and allow rifles below .410 to be used. Think about that for a minute. Most folks were shooting .58-.72 RIFLES that were simply CALLED "shotguns". The "shotguns only" Rule was instituted after deer were reintroduced post 1800s extirpation and hunting was once again "allowed" - but people had NO idea about ACTUAL gun safety vis-a-vis weight, velocity & penetration. They were assuming "inaccurate" and "low round count" meant "safe". BUT:

Compared to practically any big game rifle bullet, rifled slugs are not very accurate. They are a short range (100 yard or less) proposition at best. The ballistic coefficient (BC) and sectional density of rifled slugs is pretty pitiful. The only place they score high numbers is in recoil, where low numbers are desired. Shooting groups from a bench rest with a slug gun is not fun, as the recoil is considerable. If possible, always use a rifle in preference to a slug gun for any kind of big game hunting.

Some jurisdictions in the U.S. forbid the use of rifles and mandate the use of shotgun slugs for deer hunting, allegedly for "safety" in crowded hunting areas. I am sure that this is what keeps rifled slugs viable as a sporting proposition. (They are also used in police "riot" guns, of course.)

This is actually kind of funny in an ironic way, as the one thing slugs do really well is penetrate brush. Rifled slugs are probably the most dangerous type of ammunition to use in a wooded area crowded with hunters and other humans, as they plow through visually impenetrable brush, leaves, and small tree limbs with aplomb. A high velocity rifle with a frangible bullet would be far safer in such an environment. I have, for instance, seen .22 varmint bullets fired at very high velocity turn into a puff of blue smoke on a blade of grass!

Of course, back then that meant "Pumpkin Ball" in Smoothbore, but after more than a hundred years it meant "Fully Rifled Slug Guns using High Performance Sabots"... which shrinks the gap between "Deer Rifle" and "Shotgun" to practical imperceptibility.

SO, when the DNR decided to put the Question to IN Hunters, there was a HUGE political battle, pitting the "Shotgun Only" FUDDS against the rest of the Sporting World.

That's when I got involved... and joined this Forum.

In the end, the "Pro Rifle" faction settled on "ballistic equivalence" and raw ballistic science to defeat the FUDD Shotgun Snipers. In so doing, it limited the caliber choice to, primarily, Pistol Caliber Rifles and AR Wildcats. Sadly, because of the way the DNR decided to create "enforcement guidelines" for the Fishy-Game Cops, they nixed the OTHER Ballisticly equivelent calibers like the .38-55, .45-70, .30-30, etc. because TPTB apparently believed the Fishy Game Cops could not tell the difference between a .454 and a .45-70 and a .416 Rigby.

Anyway, "we" "got" to use Pistol Caliber Leverguns for Deer... which in Indiana is perfectly appropriate. But, we were prevented from using .30-30s, .38-55s, .45-70s, etc, as well as .30-06, .416 Rigby and whatever other SuperMonsterUltraShort/LongMagnum was in fashion at the moment... which was stupid, given the Hunting Style for 90+% of Indiana Hunters AND the fact that you could use a .50BMG SLAP to hunt rabbits & 'yotes if you so desired... just not deer.

Now, after a half dozen years of people (not) "blasting away with semi-automatic PCRs", the DNR has recognized that "Caliber =/= Stupid Drunk Hick", so they are finally opening it up to parity with other States.

Now, would *I* use my .308 in Indiana? Not unless the ranges in my hunting areas made it appropriate (I really like my 100yd .357), But I don't like being told I CAN'T because some know-nothing is afraid I will shoot a school 2 counties over...

[horsesoldier03]

Old Ironsights, thanks for the clarification, I was tracking on most of your comments. Sorry, but to this TEXAN, it just don't make sense. IMO, it just seems odd to try and limit reasonable calibers for use in a sport for which they were designed.

[Pete44ru]

IMO, it just seems odd to try and limit reasonable calibers for use in a sport for which they were designed.

"Odd & unreasonable" describes most bureaucrats who promulgate F&G regs.


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[Chuck 100 yd]

OMG , what next? Smokless powder???

[7.62 Precision]

I just see more accident potential, with no real 'necessary' gain in terms of practical hunting needs.

I agree that the magnums are overkill for must hunters and I almost always recommend a .308 or '06 over a 300 WM, etc.

On the other hand, I completely disagree with the idea of accident potential caused by using rifle cartridges over slugs and pistol cartridges.

(Wow, we just had a pretty good tremor. It went for a couple minutes and increased in intensity to the point I started the kids on an earthquake drill. First time I have been concerned enough to do that. They are saying it was only 6.1, prelim. estimates, but it was centered just a few miles from here.)

The same bullet design that makes most modern rifle bullets effective (long for diameter, weight to the rear) makes them more unstable, while fat, weight-forward projectiles like slugs are far more stable after striking an object.

So while a .30-06 might go farther if you were shooting deer out of trees, but it the angles wee shoot at deer, slugs actually travel further on average. A rifle bullet tend to spin to ground after striking a tree or the ground. Even after hitting the ground, a slug tends to bounce back up and keep going.

This was proven recently by a study at Aberdeen.

[jd45]

In Michigan, where I deer-hunted the last several years that I did deer-hunt, high-powered rifles were/are restricted to the less densely populated middle & northern sections. I hunted the lower section using either shotgun; muzzle loader; or pistol. I would've liked to have been able to use my .45 Colt '73 or '92, but it wasn't allowed. jd45

[AJMD429]

I just see more accident potential, with no real 'necessary' gain in terms of practical hunting needs.

I agree that the magnums are overkill for must hunters and I almost always recommend a .308 or '06 over a 300 WM, etc.

On the other hand, I completely disagree with the idea of accident potential caused by using rifle cartridges over slugs and pistol cartridges.

(Wow, we just had a pretty good tremor. It went for a couple minutes and increased in intensity to the point I started the kids on an earthquake drill. First time I have been concerned enough to do that. They are saying it was only 6.1, prelim. estimates, but it was centered just a few miles from here.)

The same bullet design that makes most modern rifle bullets effective (long for diameter, weight to the rear) makes them more unstable, while fat, weight-forward projectiles like slugs are far more stable after striking an object.

So while a .30-06 might go farther if you were shooting deer out of trees, but it the angles wee shoot at deer, slugs actually travel further on average. A rifle bullet tend to spin to ground after striking a tree or the ground. Even after hitting the ground, a slug tends to bounce back up and keep going.

This was proven recently by a study at Aberdeen.

Good point. A ways back I read an article where they took 223 or 22-250 JSP's and shot through a sheet of corrugated cardboard or something fairly flimsy, and a gallon jug directly in the line of fire ten feet back would typically be unscathed. Try that with a 45 Colt bullet at 950 fps...!!!